Battlestar Galactica Season 4.5 [SciFi]

[Aero 1]

Cant wait! go watch the webisodes before the premier. Some man love and foreshadowing for the upcoming season.

http://www.scifi.com/rewind/?sid=870861

[Mindslayer]

My DVR is already set for season pass. Can do without the man love, though.

[Budyzir]

yup, I'm definitely watching, took long enough.

[CousinDave]

yup, I'm definitely watching, took long enough.


So say we all

[Sct Ptersns Twn]

Can I start watching this shit now or am I fucked?

I saw the commercial last night and had no idea that is was BG until the end when they showed the title.

[CousinDave]

Can I start watching this shit now or am I fucked?



Do not start watching at this point, get the DVDs or download on iTunes and start from the beginning.

[CousinDave]

less than 90 minutes left till the start

[shimrra]

Oh snap !!! Right in the head.

[ruckstande]

Oh what is the fuck? That about as fucked up as Jews for Jesus.

[mascan42]

And there goes another candidate for the Final Cylon.

[ruckstande]

Do our Admirals cry this much?

[mascan42]

Adama's a mean frackin drunk.

[LiddyRules]

I had my money on her to be Cylon!

[ruckstande]

Long fucking commercials. This Warehouse 13 looks good.

[LiddyRules]

Ellen's the Fifth Cylon?

[ruckstande]

Ha! What? Huh? So? Umm?

[mascan42]

Here's my current new crazy theory:
The Earth Cylons resurrect in a different way from the regular Cylons - instead of downloading to a fully-formed body, they're simply reincarnated and reborn.

If Ellen is still waiting to be reborn, could Caprica Six's unborn child be her? That would make Tigh both her husband and her father, which would be just twisted enough for this show to try.

[AngryPest]

At least we don't have to listen to peoples guesses anymore.

When Tigh found out there should have been a HA-HA!

[ruckstande]

Here's my current new crazy theory:
The Earth Cylons resurrect in a different way from the regular Cylons - instead of downloading to a fully-formed body, they're simply reincarnated and reborn.

If Ellen is still waiting to be reborn, could Caprica Six's unborn child be her? That would make Tigh both her husband and her father, which would be just twisted enough for this show to try.

Should we start taking bets on theories?

[CousinDave]

Okay I've figured the final Cylon would be someone from the fleet who died before the music went off. Ellen never crossed my mind, I thought it would be Kendra Shaw.

Starbuck is neither Human or Cylon, she is an "angel"

That planet is not Earth, its Terra, they will find Earth, but Laura will die before then.

I still think the 12 Cylons are the 12 Lords of Kobal



The first couple of episodes of Californicatin with Lou Ashby, I always thought about Leoben, and now, I just see that guy as Lou Ashby.

[ruckstande]

Okay I've figured the final Cylon would be someone from the fleet who died before the music went off. Ellen never crossed my mind, I thought it would be Kendra Shaw.

Starbuck is neither Human or Cylon, she is an "angel"

That planet is not Earth, its Terra, they will find Earth, but Laura will die before then.

I still think the 12 Cylons are the 12 Lords of Kobal



The first couple of episodes of Californicatin with Lou Ashby, I always thought about Leoben, and now, I just see that guy as Lou Ashby.

It's been so long I have no idea what you are talking about. I have to brush up on the frakking("frell" was always better) story. Who are the 12 Lords of Kobal?

[CousinDave]

It's been so long I have no idea what you are talking about. I have to brush up on the frakking("frell" was always better) story. Who are the 12 Lords of Kobal?



The Lords of Kobal are the Colonial's gods

[ruckstande]

The Lords of Kobal are the Colonial's gods
Right! I got ya. So this is an endless cycle then. Never to end? If that planet was nuked 2000 years ago why is Starbucks body still there? Wha happa?

[LiddyRules]

The first couple of episodes of Californicatin with Lou Ashby, I always thought about Leoben, and now, I just see that guy as Lou Ashby. I knew that guy looked familiar.

[CousinDave]

Right! I got ya. So this is an endless cycle then. Never to end? If that planet was nuked 2000 years ago why is Starbucks body still there? Wha happa?


That was the Starbuck who disappeared at the end of Season 3


All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again

[ruckstande]

I know that was her but why is she back or a copy of herself with the same shit? I get what you are saying about being reborn and all that but she is back with a new ship with the same clothes, ring and all that.

[Beeman99]

so both Ellen and Starbuck are Cylons, that fucks up the math now don't it

and I'm just sad the hot n1gger is dead

[Sparkstalker]

One theory I heard is that Starbuck is actually a hybrid...that Leoben is her father. It at least explains his creepy interest in her. But I'm at a loss as for how she's alive. I assume we'll find out soon enough.

[ruckstande]

so both Ellen and Starbuck are Cylons, that fucks up the math now don't it

and I'm just sad the hot n1gger is dead

But why did she kill herself? Does she know something or did she just get depressed. I'm annoyed at that. I liked her.

[CousinDave]

so both Ellen and Starbuck are Cylons, that fucks up the math now don't it

and I'm just sad the hot n1gger is dead



first she is way to hot to be a n!gger - hot chicks can never be n1ggers, only fat ugly ones.

Starbuck isn't a Cylon, she is something else, the hybrid theory is a good one, but I think she will turn out to be an "angel" similar to whatever the glowing lights were in the original Battlestar Galactica series.

[Beeman99]

first she is way to hot to be a n!gger - hot chicks can never be n1ggers, only fat ugly ones.

Starbuck isn't a Cylon, she is something else, the hybrid theory is a good one, but I think she will turn out to be an "angel" similar to whatever the glowing lights were in the original Battlestar Galactica series.

never saw the original..

And she's still hot, n1gger or not

[shimrra]

But why did she kill herself? Does she know something or did she just get depressed. I'm annoyed at that. I liked her.

I think the stress of it all got to her. Could have been shellshock.

[CousinDave]

But why did she kill herself? Does she know something or did she just get depressed. I'm annoyed at that. I liked her.


I got the impression she just couldn't handle the disappointment, snapped, and decided to take the easy way out.

I know Lee didn't really love her, but even so, you would have thought he would have been a lot more upset.

[LiddyRules]

so both Ellen and Starbuck are Cylons, that fucks up the math now don't it

and I'm just sad the hot n1gger is deadI'm pretty sure Starbuck is a Cylon. I think she's something different. Whether a hybrid, a new creature or some sort of religious being: I don't know. For all we know, she might just be a corporeal spirit.

I know that was her but why is she back or a copy of herself with the same shit? I get what you are saying about being reborn and all that but she is back with a new ship with the same clothes, ring and all that.

But why did she kill herself? Does she know something or did she just get depressed. I'm annoyed at that. I liked her. Damn you're inquisitive tonight. All these questions will probably be answered in due time. Not everything needs to be answered in one episode. BSG is pretty good about that. All we can do right now is theorize. I'd say it might have to do with the Nubian Princess realizing that Earth was a shithole and how there might be no escape to the torments humanity must face. Or maybe she realized that Adama will never love her like she loves him. Or maybe it had to do with the fag standing right behind her. Maybe looking at the picture of her joyous childhood made her realize that she'd never be happy again. Or all of the above.

[Beeman99]

I'm pretty sure Starbuck is a Cylon. I think she's something different. Whether a hybrid, a new creature or some sort of religious being: I don't know. For all we know, she might just be a corporeal spirit.



Damn you're inquisitive tonight. All these questions will probably be answered in due time. Not everything needs to be answered in one episode. BSG is pretty good about that. All we can do right now is theorize. I'd say it might have to do with the Nubian Princess realizing that Earth was a shithole and how there might be no escape to the torments humanity must face. Or maybe she realized that Adama will never love her like she loves him. Or maybe it had to do with the fag standing right behind her. Maybe looking at the picture of her joyous childhood made her realize that she'd never be happy again. Or all of the above.


all I know is the hottest n1gger on TV is dead

[AngryPest]

I'm pretty sure Starbuck is a Cylon. I think she's something different. Whether a hybrid, a new creature or some sort of religious being: I don't know. For all we know, she might just be a corporeal spirit.



I wouldn't be surprised if a "Ships of Light" reference seeps in.

Everything was in pretty good condition for being by the ocean for 2000 years.

[LiddyRules]

all I know is the hottest n1gger on TV is dead Wait until Tuesday.

[Aero 1]

she killed herself because Apollo is a faggot. all that faggot has done on the show is cry, be a pussy, and suck cock. Dee couldnt believe that she married a pole smoker. She tried to get some yesterday and he said ewww, she then killed herself.

[ruckstande]

she killed herself because Apollo is a faggot. all that faggot has done on the show is cry, be a pussy, and suck cock. Dee couldnt believe that she married a pole smoker. She tried to get some yesterday and he said ewww, she then killed herself.

I agree with this.

all I know is the hottest n1gger on TV is dead

and this.

Damn you're inquisitive tonight. All these questions will probably be answered in due time. Not everything needs to be answered in one episode. BSG is pretty good about that. All we can do right now is theorize. I'd say it might have to do with the Nubian Princess realizing that Earth was a shithole and how there might be no escape to the torments humanity must face. Or maybe she realized that Adama will never love her like she loves him. Or maybe it had to do with the fag standing right behind her. Maybe looking at the picture of her joyous childhood made her realize that she'd never be happy again. Or all of the above.

aaaand this.

Yeah I was just happy I finally have something to watch and I don't follow plots well. Plus I was upset that the best looking gal on the show is tits up.

[LiddyRules]

Plus I was upset that the best looking gal on the show is tits up. For all we know, Keegan Connor Tracy is still out there diddling herself to thoughts of Gaius Baltar.

[ruckstande]

For all we know, Keegan Connor Tracy is still out there diddling herself to thoughts of Gaius Baltar.

I had to look that up. I don't remember her on the show.

[THE FEZ MAN]

fuck fuck fuck fuck, i forgot.... whens the replay? i have to set the DVR for it.... god damn it

[Kugzilla]

Perhaps Tighe and Ellen are Starbucks parents...who knows?

I kinda enjoyed the episode, but feel like they waited too long to air them.

[Aero 1]

fuck fuck fuck fuck, i forgot.... whens the replay? i have to set the DVR for it.... god damn it

http://www.hulu.com/watch/53330/battlestar-galactica-sometimes-a-great-notion

[THE FEZ MAN]

thanks

[THE FEZ MAN]

wow, once again my PS3 amazes me.... i got to watch it on my big TV (not an hd just a plain old tube) boy do i need a new TV so i can really get some use out of this thing

[Radioguy]

When they said her raptor was "different" back a year ago, that made me wonder if she was a parallel version of Starbuck, not something religious or a Cylon. However, not until they found her body did that seem most plausible to me. There could be some alternate timeline stuff coming. That popped into my head again when Xena asked Tigh if he wanted to "stop" this. They already insinuate it's some loop, but maybe this new Starbuck is the one who breaks it.

It would be a total mindfuck if she kills this timeline like Donnie Darko, and all the main characters are shown on earth as they were when the nukes fell, but they don't, and the world goes on.

It's reminiscent of that STTNG ep with the parallel Worf.

[JoeyDVDZ]

My gal was saying exactly that yesterday, that Starbuck comes from an alternate reality. I sorta poo-poo'ed it, but the way you explain it, it makes sense.

[TreeFortRichard]

Perhaps Tighe and Ellen are Starbucks parents...who knows?

I kinda enjoyed the episode, but feel like they waited too long to air them.

not possible if they stick to the rules that Cylons can't reproduce alone..we learned that they were both cylon...so they can't be..If you want a real mind fuck, What if the lil' baby is actually a baby starbuck...that will grow up to be starbuck...(if someone else read this i am not stealing from you...I avoided this b/c of spoilers until i watched it.)

[Aero 1]

worst commercial placement ever. i LOL'd

spoiler warning: do not watch this clip if you havent seen the first episode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW2_2ihIuzI

[Beeman99]

worst commercial placement ever. i LOL'd

spoiler warning: do not watch this clip if you havent seen the first episode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW2_2ihIuzI

glad you did, no one else is.

[MrBogey]

Holy crap. I missed that because of fast forward.

Yea, the song and the visuals are awful.

[Chimp Pembry]

I have to say in response to the revealing of the final cylon:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[Beeman99]

I have to say in response to the revealing of the final cylon:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

nothing has been revealed yet.

[LiddyRules]

worst commercial placement ever. i LOL'd

spoiler warning: do not watch this clip if you havent seen the first episode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW2_2ihIuzI

No fucking way. The worst commercial placement ever was Kung Fu Panda after Amber's death on House. I still think about that shit to this day.

[MrBogey]

Yea, the House-Panda fiasco was worse. There was a huuuuuge emotional buildup with Wilson holding a dying Amber in his arms and whammm... Jack Black laughing and singing.

[Chimp Pembry]

nothing has been revealed yet.

Did you miss the end of the episode? I'd be interested to hear an alternate explanation for that scene.

[LiddyRules]

Yea, the House-Panda fiasco was worse. There was a huuuuuge emotional buildup with Wilson holding a dying Amber in his arms and whammm... Jack Black laughing and singing. With BSG it was surprise-shock. With House it was true emotional-shock. House wins.

[THE FEZ MAN]

eh i watched it on line..... i got two chimps bitching about there shitty credit

oh and i caught up on the webasodes... yea hot man on man action.....

[Radioguy]

http://www.wackbag.com/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABwAAAAOCAYAAAA 8E3wEAAAABmJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAACXBIWXMAAAsTAAALEwEAmpwYAAAAB3RJTUUH1Q UUDyoqJjAqRwAAAN1JREFUOMu1lMkVwyAMBYe0JGpCNUFNVk3k 4AUwxPGS+ILxkzX8jyTH/Sfu9nrmJ3cXlnMASyWRPwd2d5XlHCBZn1BthcbRAdxTZQDI8k3 mQzg11rhF+QZ9jdNOcQib6GFQYJYgCFucSRf6GsLU6wEY5yubT FqF2yq1vRwr3INXdQUWG+je1pELX4ED1wDyRAR0WfuAA9gloIT yvsFMIMgYInYRqF6rO9Sqz9qkO5ilyo0o3YBwJ+6vrdQonxWUQ llhXeHcb/wabMPkP2n81ocAIoLZrMqn/4y2RwP8DcQ+d6rT9ATiAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC


Did you miss the end of the episode? I'd be interested to hear an alternate explanation for that scene.

There's nothing definitive about that scene. That's his belief, not yet fact. Dualla could still even be the final one going by that.

[Beeman99]

Did you miss the end of the episode? I'd be interested to hear an alternate explanation for that scene.

I saw it, but it didn't tell you anything, just gave people shit to hypothesize about. If you think they'd give that info up the first ep back, I have some land to sell you in Iraq

[Chimp Pembry]

So she just so happened to live thousands of years, and survived being crushed and nuked?

That makes sense.

[Saikotic]

Did you miss the end of the episode? I'd be interested to hear an alternate explanation for that scene.

One word: Misdirection. You see it all the time.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the Galactica crew were on earth when it got blowed up. Who the fuck knows yet? It's still the best show on television.

[Beeman99]

One word: Misdirection. You see it all the time.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the Galactica crew were on earth when it got blowed up. Who the fuck knows yet? It's still the best show on television.

watch, they'll end it by this whole thing being a dream of Earth Tighs and he'll wake up getting head from Caprica.

[MrBogey]

Dualla will be in the shower?

[Chimp Pembry]

This entire series is a dream by a low level officer's retarded son.

[chumpy]

This entire series is a dream by a low level officer's retarded son.

:clap: St elseswere reference :clap:

[Mindslayer]

Finally saw the episode, shocked and saddened by Dee's suicide and still scratching my head over the reveal of the fifth Cylon. Love the flashbacks to old Earth, too. Keep those coming.

[THE FEZ MAN]

ooooo whos the baby daddy

[AngryPest]

I love how the gimp fagot Gaeta is this big tough rebel leader.

[CousinDave]

Did anyone notice that front of the fuel ship looked like a Cylon Raider

[THE FEZ MAN]

Did anyone notice that front of the fuel ship looked like a Cylon Raider

eh, the design guys ran out of ideas. oh and gaeta is going to end up dead sooner rather than later. what kind of bugs me a little bit is that if you didn't watch the webasodes you have no idea why he's doing what he's doing, oh and the mutiny on galactica looks like its going to be a nice two part eppasode

[cosmic cow]

i thought last nights episode was total shit and a waste. can't the president just die already? too many storylines with no clues to anything. apollo is a joke on this show. for some reason it bothers me that he wears a tie

[AngryPest]

eh, the design guys ran out of ideas. oh and gaeta is going to end up dead sooner rather than later. what kind of bugs me a little bit is that if you didn't watch the webasodes you have no idea why he's doing what he's doing, oh and the mutiny on galactica looks like its going to be a nice two part eppasode

I just thought he drank a bad batch of cum.

And I did see the webasodes and I didn't care about the fruity gimp.

[ruckstande]

This show bugs me a lot. Saul or Sol whatever was all hardcore against Cylons and wants them all dead. Suddenly he finds out he is one, gets the other 6 pregnant and now he is all a weepy eyed faggot who wants to "preserve the cylon race." WHAT!? I would figure he would be so ashamed of himself he'd kill himself not want to make toasters. I just don't understand it.

[CousinDave]

This show bugs me a lot. Saul or Sol whatever was all hardcore against Cylons and wants them all dead. Suddenly he finds out he is one, gets the other 6 pregnant and now he is all a weepy eyed faggot who wants to "preserve the cylon race." WHAT!? I would figure he would be so ashamed of himself he'd kill himself not want to make toasters. I just don't understand it.


his model had nothing to do with the attacks on the 12 Colonies

[THE FEZ MAN]

his model had nothing to do with the attacks on the 12 Colonies

none of the final 5 had anything to do with the war, as a matter of fact for the most part the final 5 have been working for the humans with great dedication. im curious to see if the fleet splits again, or if the other cylons find them and what shape there fleet is in after the "civil" war and how there handling it.... oh and yea adama banging the bald cancer chick made me think about the chick in fight club... " i have drugs booze, poppers and pornographic movies, i just want to have sex one more time before i die...) :rolleyes:

[AngryPest]

I have heard talk the Starbuck and Baltar may be avatars. Similar to Carnivale (Moore did the first season). Doubt it.

In the end, I wondering if Galactica comes upon a bunch of older (different) Galactica's drifting in space. Each one 2000 years older than the other. You know the whole this has happened before thing. Then that would require a coherent arc which this show lacks.

[cosmic cow]

this show has sucked ass for some time now. if some of the ships don't want the cylon technology then let them be on their own as you jump 3 times the distance. the writting sucks and i think they make it up from show to show..........i think the show should end with them meeting up with the original rag-tag fleet with lorne green sp? )yes i know he is dead), faceman, boxy, muffit etc.....and the cylons kill them all

[Beeman99]

this weeks ep was a complete waste of time. It wasn't filler, it wasn't a setup, it was just a wasted ep. They better get their shit together or it'll just be another show that has a retarded ending

[AngryPest]

this weeks ep was a complete waste of time. It wasn't filler, it wasn't a setup, it was just a wasted ep. They better get their shit together or it'll just be another show that has a retarded ending

Its not like we have only a couple of episodes left to wrap everything up...

[Beeman99]

Its not like we have only a couple of episodes left to wrap everything up...

what's left though, 8,10?? They keep wasting them like this and it'll be a shit ending.

[AngryPest]

what's left though, 8,10?? They keep wasting them like this and it'll be a shit ending.

I think its 8. I've decided if they kill off Tigh I'm out.

[mascan42]

Holy fuck, what an episode!

[Aero 1]

Ddaaayyyyyuuuummmmm

[ruckstande]

Good Ep tonight. I wish Gaida would die.

[AngryPest]

It was a good episode. But if Tigh dies I hope Space Hitler flys in and sends them all to Auschwitz-Anchorage.

[mascan42]

I wonder how this plays for anyone who hasn't seen the webisodes that aired before the season started. Without seeing that, Gaeta turning traitor must feel like it comes out of left field.

[THE FEZ MAN]

im really curious about how this is going to play out, i kind of like geata in a wormy kind of way, i have a feeling that tigh is going to end up killing him before this is over, as a matter of fact there's going to be a couple of big deaths in the next two or three epps, also i think the other cylons are going to catch up to them.

[MrBogey]

I want to see Gaeta die now more than I've ever wanted to see someone on that show die.

Even Baltar I just wanted to see put to an end...but not this badly.

To me, I think it touches a raw nerve on loyalty. Baltar was a weasel who takes the easy way out and can't muster the courage to have a conviction. So his failings are almost natural. With Zarek, he's just a blood-thirsty scumbag. You expect him to be wicked.

Gaeta made an oath to serve the fleet. That is a top-down hierarchy. Adama trusts him to be loyal. If he didn't trust him then there could be no order. He just broke the order of things because he thinks he knows better than the Admiral.

Well if he had an iota of sense he'd realize he just overthrew a legitimate entity to install a tyranny. You'll never have order after that. You'll have factions and power.

If he thought about it, he's just continuing a cycle of violence against a group that has forsaken their former goals and put their trust in humanity. Go on stupid. You have 38,000 or so lives to piss away. Try and keep fighting. Don't try and have peace when possible. Show the cylons that you'll exterminate the human race rather than have a truly equal partnership. You think that trying to eradicate the friendly cylons are going to convince the ones who want a total genocide of humanity to back off? You think you can take out the baseship without heavy losses? You just tore the human fleet in half. Good luck with that.

And I want to see Zarek hung for murder. Not airlocked. Hung. He killed a man in cold blood. A man who was simply doing his duty and not threatening him.

[NeonTaster]

I agree with you, MrBogey. However, I have to say that the whole Gaeta/Zerek alliance makes a pretty valid point. How the fuck did the fleet go from fighting Cylons to being guided and led by them? I think Gaeta realized how different the two are when that Sharon fucking slaughtered everyone on that Raptor for no real reason. Even Lee sorta agrees with them. Maybe if Roseland hadn't gone all crazy and Adama did a better job explaining his recent choices they wouldn't be in this mess. Naturally, Gaeta and Zerek should share an airlock for this shit, but I can't totally disagree with them. Never trust a fraking Cylon.

[MrBogey]

I agree with you, MrBogey. However, I have to say that the whole Gaeta/Zerek alliance makes a pretty valid point. How the fuck did the fleet go from fighting Cylons to being guided and led by them? I think Gaeta realized how different the two are when that Sharon fucking slaughtered everyone on that Raptor for no real reason. Even Lee sorta agrees with them. Maybe if Roseland hadn't gone all crazy and Adama did a better job explaining his recent choices they wouldn't be in this mess. Naturally, Gaeta and Zerek should share an airlock for this shit, but I can't totally disagree with them. Never trust a fraking Cylon.

But the thing is, you have to look at where you are and where you're going.

The fundamental flaw in humanity is we are too reactionary and tend to let the past guide us without respect to direction. The past should be a reference. Not a guide.

What happened on that Raptor in the webisodes would have happened in an all human crew. It's human nature in some folks. Her actions were more in line with us if anything.

[NeonTaster]

But the thing is, you have to look at where you are and where you're going.

The fundamental flaw in humanity is we are too reactionary and tend to let the past guide us without respect to direction. The past should be a reference. Not a guide.

What happened on that Raptor in the webisodes would have happened in an all human crew. It's human nature in some folks. Her actions were more in line with us if anything.

I'm talking about the people in the fleet who aren't in the loop. You can call them reactionary, but they don't have all the info. Adama is an old school admiral, who doesn't think he needs to explain his actions. In a strictly military environment, he's absolutely right, but how do you think the other captains feel when they get mandated a Cylon upgrade which will basically make their ships vulnerable to Cylon attack or double crossing? I'm not surprised they were reluctant. The Human-Cylon interaction was limited to the higher-ups, and was never properly pitched to the fleet. I personally think Adama and Roseland are doing the right thing, but they aren't being politically savvy about it, and unfortunately, that is all Zerek is doing...

[Turfmower]

Could Geata be the final Cylon? Because if Ellen Tigh was believed to killed be killed during the original Cylon attacks only to show up 3 weeks later on the Rising Star. Since she was all ready dead and resurrected she isn't one of the final five.

[Kugzilla]

At this point, I hope the show ends with the Cylons detroying all of humanity. I think they deserve it by now.

Last nights episode was an improvement over recent weeks. I've loved the show, but I"m looking forward to it being done.

[AngryPest]

Could Geata be the final Cylon? Because if Ellen Tigh was believed to killed be killed during the original Cylon attacks only to show up 3 weeks later on the Rising Star. Since she was all ready dead and resurrected she isn't one of the final five.

Don't forget the writers fucked up and forgot a #7 Cylon model. Although Ron Moore claims he doesn't care about it.

[mascan42]

Don't forget the writers fucked up and forgot a #7 Cylon model. Although Ron Moore claims he doesn't care about it.
Moore admits they write the show by coming up with an idea and then seeing how it fits in with what came before, instead of planning it out ahead of time. Looking at it that way, I wouldn't be surprised if they retconned the #7 mistake before the show's over.

[DerFuhrerScooby]

Moore admits they write the show by coming up with an idea and then seeing how it fits in with what came before, instead of planning it out ahead of time. Looking at it that way, I wouldn't be surprised if they retconned the #7 mistake before the show's over.



Moore also admits that much of the writing/creative process is fueled by by that ever popular muse scotch. Ever listen to one of his podcasts? Dude is straight up pounding the hooch in almost every one. While gulping Chivas must be great fun during brainstorming sessions, it can also lead to continuity problems.

[Budyzir]

One of the reasons why I liked Babylon 5. J. Michael Straczynski had the entire 5 season story arch figured out before he wrote the first episode. This way he foreshadowed future events and was able to resolve them. Lets face it, hinting at the future breeds fan speculation an interest, as long as the issues are addressed.

[MilkmanDan]

I gotta say my favorite show has turned into something I dont even watch anymore. Saw the season premiere. Missed 50% of last season. Trying real hard to like it.
Right now for me the Tigh - Adama tension is the best thing on the show. Kill Stardoe.

[Chimp Pembry]

I am also skeptical about where this show is headed, and haven't been a huge fan of where it has been. There have been moments that I thought were fantastically executed, but they have become increasingly-few and far between. There's so much inter-personal drama that I've entirely lost track of who has wronged who. That's not good.

[Mindslayer]

Finally just saw last week's episode with the coup. Pretty good stuff, and tomorrow night's looks even better.

As far as Gaeta and the webisodes go, I didnt watch any of them but him wanting revenge for Anders blowing his leg off last season and the subsequent lovefest over the Cylons is plausible enough for him to want to lead an insurrection, IMO, although he may not be the most believable character to be leading such a charge.

[Chimp Pembry]

I just can't wait until they shoot him in the face. And I'm going to be irritated every second before it happens.

[Mindslayer]

I want Zarek dead, too. I cant stand that cunt.

[Radioguy]

I'm more pissed about Cally. She needs to be avenged in a very slow and painful manner. Gaeta will probably be knocked off more quickly. The fact that Zarek is played by Hatch may get him knocked off in the last ep. Maybe he kills Adama first and Lee gets to avenge him.

[Chimp Pembry]

I'm more pissed about Cally. She needs to be avenged in a very slow and painful manner. Gaeta will probably be knocked off more quickly. The fact that Zarek is played by Hatch may get him knocked off in the last ep. Maybe he kills Adama first and Lee gets to avenge him.

I used to like Cally until I realized she wasn't intelligent enough to be anything more than a hardheaded bigot. I'm glad that she got pushed out of an airlock, they should have killed her before I lost respect for her. Then it would have been a real tragedy.

[Chimp Pembry]

Ugh, double post.

[CousinDave]

just over half an hour until tonight's episode

I am such a loser

[AngryPest]

I hope something ultraviolent happens to the gay gimp tonight.

[MrBogey]

Mr. Gaeta!

I really like Olmos' acting in this ep.

[Radioguy]

http://wackbag.com/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABwAAAAOCAYAAAA 8E3wEAAAABmJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAACXBIWXMAAAsTAAALEwEAmpwYAAAAB3RJTUUH1Q UUDyoqJjAqRwAAAN1JREFUOMu1lMkVwyAMBYe0JGpCNUFNVk3k 4AUwxPGS+ILxkzX8jyTH/Sfu9nrmJ3cXlnMASyWRPwd2d5XlHCBZn1BthcbRAdxTZQDI8k3 mQzg11rhF+QZ9jdNOcQib6GFQYJYgCFucSRf6GsLU6wEY5yubT FqF2yq1vRwr3INXdQUWG+je1pELX4ED1wDyRAR0WfuAA9gloIT yvsFMIMgYInYRqF6rO9Sqz9qkO5ilyo0o3YBwJ+6vrdQonxWUQ llhXeHcb/wabMPkP2n81ocAIoLZrMqn/4y2RwP8DcQ+d6rT9ATiAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC


I used to like Cally until I realized she wasn't intelligent enough to be anything more than a hardheaded bigot.

I'm glad that she got pushed out of an airlock, they should have killed her before I lost respect for her. Then it would have been a real tragedy.

Glad? Bigot? You may need to rewatch her back in the day. She was no mensa member back then either, but she was a "decent" person. Making her less sympathetic was to ease our acceptance of her death. Sure, she's less sympathetic with her becoming hard after Caprica, but she went through crap to get that way. It's understandable. There were no rebel Cylons to ally with. They were all bad, killed all she knew back home, and she finds out her husband is one. I didn't lose respect, just understood, and it was plenty tragic since she had a kid.

Had she not become hard, and she went out that way, they'd have to kill Tory in the same ep. As-is, they still need to make sure Tory meets a slow end.

[mascan42]

Cally was one step above a mongoloid from day one. The revelation that the baby's father was Hotdog fits, because he's just as stupid as she was. TWOP put it perfectly in their recap: If Saul and Caprica's baby is the most Cylon thing that ever existed, Nicky is the most human. A Hotdog/Cally baby would be, like, mystical amounts of stupid. The Shape Of Things To Dumb.

[Radioguy]

That sounds like Crazy Jen.

Look, I'm not arguing her importance or intellect, just that I still feel some sympathy for her. Who she was at the end was a product of her experience, which was crap, and her death was more cruel than what I expected or she really deserved. That death scene was filmed as if it were something truly reprehensible (like Gaeta's betrayal), and I think the comeuppance should be equally as intense. Not to do it, and have Tory die along with others or not at all, would be one loose end too many for me.

[THE FEZ MAN]

i wonder how there going to deal with the marines that took part in the coup. the fleet isn't really in a position to start executing highly trained fighters

[JoeyDVDZ]

Rewatching the entire two-parter now. About halfway through part 2. Damn, this was an intense little storyline.

Gaeta sucks a dick. (literally!)

Just started re-watching the first mini-series too, and it's amazing how young & fresh they all looked at the start.

[ruckstande]

i wonder how there going to deal with the marines that took part in the coup. the fleet isn't really in a position to start executing highly trained fighters

I'm glad Adama finally had some balls and executed someone. It pisses me off how much of a pussy he has been overall. He yells a lot but cries like a little bitch.

[THE FEZ MAN]

Rewatching the entire two-parter now. About halfway through part 2. Damn, this was an intense little storyline.

Gaeta sucks a dick. (literally!)

Just started re-watching the first mini-series too, and it's amazing how young & fresh they all looked at the start.

yea i noticed that also, when the series started they were all bright and full of hope, and ever since new caperica they have all gotten the "1000yd stare" i also liked how they commented on how rough the ship has been looking

I'm glad Adama finally had some balls and executed someone. It pisses me off how much of a pussy he has been overall. He yells a lot but cries like a little bitch.

yea for a "great leader" he's been kind of wimpy in the way of dispensing "justice" but i guess that is what the writers are trying to convey, leadership through kindness..... blech, i liked the ruthlessness of zerik

[Aero 1]

great episode, but that cunty president with her over dramatic cunty voice ruined it

[ruckstande]

great episode, but that cunty president with her over dramatic cunty voice ruined it

Yeah no shit. Reminds me of the Abyss.
"The crane! We...lost...the... crane! It's on its way down...to...you!"

[JoeyDVDZ]

Yeah no shit. Reminds me of the Abyss.
"The crane! We...lost...the... crane! It's on its way down...to...you!"
during her response to Gaeta's demand for her surrender, she sorta reminded me of Hillary Cliton (yes, mispelled on purpose) when she ramps up to Mars Attacks voice.

[THE FEZ MAN]

great episode, but that cunty president with her over dramatic cunty voice ruined it


eh i kind of liked that scene, it reminded me of my mother..... :rolleyes:

[chumpy]

Don't you remember the cylon "mother brain" saying that same line last season before the jump

[MrBogey]

I imagine that the Marines who served in the mutiny will be dishonorably discharged. The ones who executed civilians and military will probably get brig.

[Budyzir]

What was that final conversation between Baltar and Gaeta all about?

"I know what you are."

What are they trying to hint at? Was Gaeta a Cylon?

[Guysdrinkingbeer]

What was that final conversation between Baltar and Gaeta all about?

"I know what you are."

What are they trying to hint at? Was Gaeta a Cylon?

I don't think it was that Gaeta was a Cylon.
I think it had something to do with Gaeta working for Baltar when Baltar was President.
Baltar said something in a previous episode about a secret closed with a pen, a special pen, that no one would ever know.

[Chimp Pembry]

Glad? Bigot? You may need to rewatch her back in the day. She was no mensa member back then either, but she was a "decent" person. Making her less sympathetic was to ease our acceptance of her death. Sure, she's less sympathetic with her becoming hard after Caprica, but she went through crap to get that way. It's understandable. There were no rebel Cylons to ally with. They were all bad, killed all she knew back home, and she finds out her husband is one. I didn't lose respect, just understood, and it was plenty tragic since she had a kid.

Had she not become hard, and she went out that way, they'd have to kill Tory in the same ep. As-is, they still need to make sure Tory meets a slow end.

Everyone had to deal with what she went through. They didn't all become short-sighted blathering idiots. I understand that people go through changes in trauma. I'm NOT saying she's a bad character. I'm saying she's a stupid one. There's a difference.

[Mindslayer]

Just saw the conclusion. Solid ending to a good little arc, although I was surprised nobody besides Zarek and Gaeta were killed in the coup.
None of the hostages, I mean.

Anyway, next week's looks pretty good. Hopefully we'll finally get some answers as the teasers suggest.

[MrBogey]

A lot of minor characters were killed. Zarek and Gaeta were just the only 2 of the major ones.

[NeonTaster]

Great episode. Finally Roseland and Adama came out of their collective comas and retook control of the fleet. I really liked the scene where Roseland goes apeshit over the com with Zerek, swearing she'll do everything she can to end him. It's been a long time since she showed her balls. My favorite part, though, was the little smirk Gaeta and Zerek share before they both eat a bullet (.com). It was priceless.

The main question is: What the frak happens next?

[chumpy]

Great episode. Finally Roseland and Adama came out of their collective comas and retook control of the fleet. I really liked the scene where Roseland goes apeshit over the com with Zerek, swearing she'll do everything she can to end him. It's been a long time since she showed her balls. My favorite part, though, was the little smirk Gaeta and Zerek share before they both eat a bullet (.com). It was priceless.

The main question is: What the frak happens next?

the itching stops? :action-sm

[NeonTaster]

the itching stops? :action-sm

:clap:

Best cure in the world. Sever the nerves right at the source.

[THE FEZ MAN]

What was that final conversation between Baltar and Gaeta all about?

"I know what you are."

What are they trying to hint at? Was Gaeta a Cylon?

i think that he was insinuating about gaeta being a "double agent" when he was working for baltar on new caperica, and that gaeta never had any spine, even though baltar was an asshole that didn't fight he did what it took to keep as many of them alive that he could. also gaeta actually gave the cylons the names of people that were killed for there resistance during the occupation while he was nailing the 8 from new caprica, so i guess that he was saying that gaeta was no better than any of the other cylon sympathizers

[mascan42]

The Canadian preview for next week promises answers to plenty of questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbC4KkAUiL8

[Mindslayer]

Getting slightly ahead of ourselves with this, I know, but here's info on the Caprica pilot movie, apparently coming to DVD on 4 / 21.

http://tvshowsondvd.com/news/Caprica-Press-Release/11265

[Chimp Pembry]

Was anyone else slightly bothered that this is the distant future and Gaeta still inexplicably had an old-timey peg leg instead of more modern, less bothersome one?

[THE FEZ MAN]

Was anyone else slightly bothered that this is the distant future and Gaeta still inexplicably had an old-timey peg leg instead of more modern, less bothersome one?


no not really, but, i have noticed through out the series a seemingly in explicable lack of technology, they can travel faster than light, but still fire projectile weapons, there phones have cords they use shitty radios, drive hummers... as for the leg that was done for dramatic effect, that and if you think about it that was probably the best that they could do with there limited resources. even Pegasus seemed almost archaic in its design, but that is one of the things that i like about the series, its almost like its set in the not to distant future of our own.

even with last weeks episode when chief was in the engine room. the FTL contained moving parts.. i guess ive watched way too much star trek

[NeonTaster]

no not really, but, i have noticed through out the series a seemingly in explicable lack of technology, they can travel faster than light, but still fire projectile weapons, there phones have cords they use shitty radios, drive hummers... as for the leg that was done for dramatic effect, that and if you think about it that was probably the best that they could do with there limited resources. even Pegasus seemed almost archaic in its design, but that is one of the things that i like about the series, its almost like its set in the not to distant future of our own.

even with last weeks episode when chief was in the engine room. the FTL contained moving parts.. i guess ive watched way too much star trek

Aren't you forgetting that these are the last remnants of human civilization? Maybe all the bionic leg specialists died in the Cylon attack. Besides, seems like those luxuries were abandoned because raw materials for stuff like that have to be saved for more important uses. The whole corded phones and mechanical solutions is, I think, a military reliability issue. Even today, many military ships and aircraft use old style corded phones simply because they're very reliable, and break down less often (and are very cheap to fix). I've noticed that BSG relies heavily on current military concepts, which I like (the pilots com is a perfect example. They use modern military aviation terms and format). The whole Star Trek ultra clean, vague military type environment never felt right to me.

[MrBogey]

They've covered the tech issue. It's military and cylons are excellent crypto-breakers with excellent electronic warfare capabilities.

[Chimp Pembry]

I understand all the low-tech shit. I just expected to see a scoop leg.

[THE FEZ MAN]

Aren't you forgetting that these are the last remnants of human civilization? Maybe all the bionic leg specialists died in the Cylon attack. Besides, seems like those luxuries were abandoned because raw materials for stuff like that have to be saved for more important uses. The whole corded phones and mechanical solutions is, I think, a military reliability issue. Even today, many military ships and aircraft use old style corded phones simply because they're very reliable, and break down less often (and are very cheap to fix). I've noticed that BSG relies heavily on current military concepts, which I like (the pilots com is a perfect example. They use modern military aviation terms and format). The whole Star Trek ultra clean, vague military type environment never felt right to me.


oh not at all, as a matter of fact galactica was going to become a museum i think it was at least 50years old, that is what saved it, i like the dirtiness and the parallel to modern military i think thats one of the reasons that i still watch it. its just that that cylon ships are much cooler and seem to be more "futureistic"

[Radioguy]

The planet in the preview looks a lot like the one where they found the temple to the final five.

[mascan42]

The planet in the preview looks a lot like the one where they found the temple to the final five.
I'm pretty sure it was. I think I also saw flashes of other previous episodes.

Unfortunately, the goofy grin on Anders' face in the last shot makes me wonder if the stuff he "remembers" is just him high on pain meds from getting shot in the neck last week.

[Radioguy]

Ah, I thought they put that there to show they might go back there for some reason. (wouldn't make sense, though) The Cylon in the hallway looks like it's from that ep with the captured black pilot from before the attack.

[mascan42]

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1333/bsgcatjj6.jpg

[THE FEZ MAN]

fucking cool

[LiddyRules]

It's Kittystar Galacticat.

[Radioguy]

Helo's on Dollhouse now. Looks to be a nice role if it stays around.

[mascan42]

Hmm . . . I think I might need a second viewing to digest all of that and see if it all makes sense.

[NeonTaster]

Interesting episode. Lots of new info on inter-Cylon relation. Really enjoyed the "new" Ellen Tigh. She gives a real look at the thought-process that went into creating the centurions and skin jobs, and why the final five screwed it up oh so badly.

[MrBogey]

Wouldn't they technically be the Predecessor 5 or the Old 5?

[Chimp Pembry]

I was not impressed.

[NeonTaster]

Final 5 really is a misnomer, with all this new info. There's a lot that confuses me now. If Earth preceded Kobol (sp?), then how are the people on earth Cylons and not humans? And how did resurrection technology exist on Kobol but not Earth? And how does all this figure with the supposed invention of the Cylons (read Centurions) on the 12 colonies? Maybe the upcoming Caprica will help shed light on all that stuff. My timeline is all messed up now.

[Radioguy]

Did you already forget that "this has all happened before"? Take that in a more literal sense, and it explains those things.

[Chimp Pembry]

Final 5 really is a misnomer, with all this new info. There's a lot that confuses me now. If Earth preceded Kobol (sp?), then how are the people on earth Cylons and not humans? And how did resurrection technology exist on Kobol but not Earth? And how does all this figure with the supposed invention of the Cylons (read Centurions) on the 12 colonies? Maybe the upcoming Caprica will help shed light on all that stuff. My timeline is all messed up now.

Exactly.

[mascan42]

On a side note, looks like there's a Boomer/Tyrol reunion in the works for next week.

Boomer: "Who would I want to love?"
*Cut to Tyrol walking down the hall.*

Gee, ya think? Not being too obvious, are they?

[MrBogey]

Yea, I noticed that.

[Kugzilla]

I think Starbuck may have been reborn by that satelite thingy they talked about that was in orbit at Earth. Or something.

[Radioguy]

Her ship too? Her being from another timeline/universe seems more likely to me with her being in a different raptor.

Then again, Anders did mention angels....

[CousinDave]

A while back I was thinking about the model 7 - there wasn't one, but I just figured one of the Final Five was the 7

1 - Brother Cavil
2 - Leoben - Lou Ashby
3- Deana
4 - The Black
5 - The Other Guy
6 - Caprica Six
7 - ?????? - now Daniel
8 - Sharon, Boomer, Athena


My guess Daniel is Starbuck's father, hopefully played by Dirk Benedict

[Chimp Pembry]

Daniel got a sex change from being altered and became Starbuck.

On a side note, looks like there's a Boomer/Tyrol reunion in the works for next week.

Boomer: "Who would I want to love?"
*Cut to Tyrol walking down the hall.*

Gee, ya think? Not being too obvious, are they?
At this point though don't they technically have a father-daughter relationship?

[NeonTaster]

Daniel got a sex change from being altered and became Starbuck.


At this point though don't they technically have a father-daughter relationship?

I was thinking that too, but how can an embryo change sex from amniotic fluid contamination? Sounds kinda weak...

[Mindslayer]

Pretty good episode, but it was weird to see all of these revelations come so quickly and in one shot like that.

[THE FEZ MAN]

yea, it was like a bomb going off, but the writers have to wrap up every thing in a few more episodes. i always thought that ellen was a cylon, till sal killed her, but even then i had a feeling she was.

[Mindslayer]

I honestly never suspected her. I always figured itd be Adama or Roslin.

[THE FEZ MAN]

when she showed up out of the blue after the intial attacks, then how she was fucking the cylon on new caperica i really thought that she was one, now knowing that she is the "mother" of the cylons her banging the other one is a tad creepy

[Chimp Pembry]

I was thinking that too, but how can an embryo change sex from amniotic fluid contamination? Sounds kinda weak...

So is the premise of the 13th colony and the final five presented in the episode, so far.

[mascan42]

TWOP explained most of the revelations in this episode pretty clearly:
If I actually have this straight: Thirteen Tribes set out from Kobol, and the Thirteenth (Cylons) settled on Earth, where they stopped resurrecting and had babies instead. They created robots, I think, who went crazy on them and threw them a big old war just like ours did. Luckily, a group of five scientist-types were able to rediscover resurrection technology, and download themselves into new bodies at the moment of their holocaust. (After being warned by mysterious and invisible Sexy Chip People, no less.) Tory and Galen were the hot young couple, Saul and Ellen were the hot old couple, and Sam was apparently like what if Bob Dylan hung out with Watson and Crick. So they took a sublight voyage backwards along Athena's Arrow, to find the other Tribes and tell them in no uncertain terms, Do Not Fuck With Robots.

Sadly, the robots did not go unfucked with. The F5 got here too late, but forged the Armistice out of promises to help the Centurions create skinjobs. This they did: eight humanoid models, to further the toasters' goal of becoming more like their creators (as seen in the whole Hybrid lineage). Yes, I did say eight models. For a total of thirteen, at the fulcrum point of which is Seven, a model named Daniel that never made it off the production floor (except for the one that knocked up Socrata Thrace, I will bet you one trillion dollars) because Cavil, the firstborn son, was jealous of him in an insane Biblical grabbing-the-foot kinda way. Then he murdered and boxed the F5, and released them every few years into the population until the holocaust was ready to go. Which is where we came in.

The reason that Cavil is such a dick, though, is because he resents the Five, particularly Ellen, for creating him in such an old, creepy body. They seem to agree that the F5 made the human bodies and weird hormonal imbalances we've grown to love in the Significant Seven because the One True God would approve of that -- but then also, the OTG seems to have been invented by the Centurions in the first place, which makes no sense. Even Chief finds that weird, so I'm sure there's more to it. (Like, maybe a whole series coming to your screen fairly soon, with a writing staff including but not limited to Jane, the wonderful fellow who wrote this episode, and Michael Taylor.) So Brother John Cavil gives a fairly moving and convincing speech for why he's so pissed off, and you finally get Cavil: he's basically like Pinocchio going, "Really? Lederhosen? Fuckin' forever?" Only instead of singing a little song about it and kicking Ellen in her shapely Gepetto shins, he knowingly and nastily:

Destroyed utterly the life and civilizations on twelve planets, burnt the knowledge of their creators out of his brothers and sisters, killed Daniel and boxed Three, wiped and boxed the Final Five just to make sure they ended up in the holocaust, had a day-long conversation with Chief about how he wasn't a Cylon even though he totally was, tried his best to kill off the idea of God(s) Himself(s), plucked out his father's eyeball, and fucked his own mother while she was in mortal mode on New Caprica. Moral of story? You Never Fuck With Pinocchio.

[Beeman99]

read in the paper today that Starcunt was diagnosed with Thyroid Cancer while filming the last few eps

[LiddyRules]

So in the final episode is she going to be really fat?

[Radioguy]

TWOP explained most of the revelations in this episode pretty clearly:

That's well thought out, but I don't yet buy that Kara theory. It still has too many holes (raptor etc.). I'm also more inclined to believe the "all happened before" refers to more than one sole occurrence of Cylon creation and rebellion. I tend to believe the rest of the twelve tribes are Cylons from previous repeats of this cycle. With that in mind, and Leoben's near deification of Kara, she looks like the pivotal character to break it.

[Chimp Pembry]

It's not well-thought out. How are the Cylons that left Kobol so much more advanced than the once they came back to? They cannot have left looking like people, that's way beyond what the Cylons were capable of then. They HAD to be people and Cylons who interbred into one. But since that's not the way it was pitched, the whole thing doesn't make sense.

[CousinDave]

It's not well-thought out. How are the Cylons that left Kobol so much more advanced than the once they came back to? They cannot have left looking like people, that's way beyond what the Cylons were capable of then. They HAD to be people and Cylons who interbred into one. But since that's not the way it was pitched, the whole thing doesn't make sense.



maybe somewhere the reptilian Cylons who had died off in the original Battlestar Galactica series will be involved in the chain.

although I really hope not.

[thelord68]

It's not well-thought out. How are the Cylons that left Kobol so much more advanced than the once they came back to? They cannot have left looking like people, that's way beyond what the Cylons were capable of then. They HAD to be people and Cylons who interbred into one. But since that's not the way it was pitched, the whole thing doesn't make sense.

I think the premise with the cycle is that the humans keep creating cylons. The F5 knew the twelve tribes would once again create new cylons and again treat them badly, perpetuating the cycle. So the 13th tribe cylons are different from the colonies' cylons

That's why they headed back from earth to warn the humans about their treatment of the cyclons. Since they didn't have FTL, they travelled at relativistic speed - close to the speed of light, but slower. To the F5, time passed much slower, hence the nearly 2000 year gap. During that time, the cycle repeated, humans created the cylons and war broke out before the F5 arrived at the colonies.

[Chimp Pembry]

That doesn't explain what headed for Earth in the first place.

[thelord68]

That doesn't explain what headed for Earth in the first place.

Previous war between cylons and humans - cylons went to Earth, other 12 tribes went to the colonies.

[Chimp Pembry]

.....

That doesn't explain how what headed for Earth was so much more technologically sophisticated than logically it should have been.

[mascan42]

.....

That doesn't explain how what headed for Earth was so much more technologically sophisticated than logically it should have been.
The Cylons created by the Colonials and the Cylons that that left Kobol for Earth are entirely different creations with entirely different origins. The use of the word "Cylon" is what's mixing some people up. The only thing they have in common is the fact that they're artificial lifeforms, and the Colonials are using the term "Cylon" for convenience's sake. I guarantee the Final 5 have a different name for themselves, if only they could remember what it is.

[CousinDave]

Previous war between cylons and humans - cylons went to Earth, other 12 tribes went to the colonies.


I'm guessing the Skin Job Cylons from Earth were called something else before they took on the name Cylon when they joined with the Centurions that were created by the Colonies

[Chimp Pembry]

The Cylons created by the Colonials and the Cylons that that left Kobol for Earth are entirely different creations with entirely different origins. The use of the word "Cylon" is what's mixing some people up. The only thing they have in common is the fact that they're artificial lifeforms, and the Colonials are using the term "Cylon" for convenience's sake. I guarantee the Final 5 have a different name for themselves, if only they could remember what it is.

If that's the case, they need to clarify. Because if you will remember the series began with a Six going to the treaty and the guy literally being shocked at seeing a Cylon who looked human. The whole original crux of what made the Cylons terrifying is the prospect of them being able to blend into society. If they existed that way for so long, it should not have come to a shock to anyone.

EDIT: Again, the only solution I will accept right now is that the 13th colony was also human, but became something more. Think transhumanism.

[Aero 1]

I guarantee the Final 5 have a different name for themselves, if only they could remember what it is.

Jews

[MrBogey]

If that's the case, they need to clarify. Because if you will remember the series began with a Six going to the treaty and the guy literally being shocked at seeing a Cylon who looked human. The whole original crux of what made the Cylons terrifying is the prospect of them being able to blend into society. If they existed that way for so long, it should not have come to a shock to anyone.

EDIT: Again, the only solution I will accept right now is that the 13th colony was also human, but became something more. Think transhumanism.

What does an ancient Mesopotamian look like and what did they wear?

Diasporic societies lose a lot of knowledge.

[Chimp Pembry]

That's a really nebulous argument.

[MrBogey]

That's a really nebulous argument.

How is it nebulous?

The Colonials didn't even know where Kobol was or that there were "cylons". There's a lot of things they lost in time.

[Chimp Pembry]

Humans conveniently forgetting doesn't cover technological leapfrog. That's like saying we had computers in 200BC we just forgot about them.

[JoeyDVDZ]

Well, I do recall hearing that dry cell batteries were discovered in ancient ruins, so why not more sophisticated devices?

[Chimp Pembry]

Because organic artificial intelligence is a little bit more complex.

[cosmic cow]

There are no humans................just different types of cylons

[JoeyDVDZ]

There are no humans................just different types of cylons

I've been thinking along these lines myself. I don't think any actual humans even exist anymore, only different models of cylon.

[cosmic cow]

I've been thinking along these lines myself. I don't think any actual humans even exist anymore, only different models of cylon.

i've been thinking about this for awhile now, since there doesn't seem to be any way to tell a cylon from a human...........so whats the difference between the two?

I see them landing on a planet and its full of adama's, the president, the doc...etc..

I have no idea what starbuck is though

[JoeyDVDZ]

I think Starbuck might be the last actual "human". At least, half human.

[Chimp Pembry]

i've been thinking about this for awhile now, since there doesn't seem to be any way to tell a cylon from a human...........so whats the difference between the two?

I see them landing on a planet and its full of adama's, the president, the doc...etc..

I have no idea what starbuck is though

Cylons are immune to human diseases, humans are immune to Cylon diseases. President's cancer and the ship with the Cylon-killing disease is a good example. Cylons have ridiculous strength, people don't. Cylons have glowing spines when they're fucking. People don't.

[patbattlefield]

I have been considering taking up smoking pot while I watch this show to better understand the plot.

[FellowTraveler]

I have read a theory that Starbuck is the daughter of the 7th Cylon that Brother Cavil killed off. This along with some other spoilers makes this fairly viable.

[thelord68]

.....

That doesn't explain how what headed for Earth was so much more technologically sophisticated than logically it should have been.

First of all, since they didn't have ftl, GOING to Earth would have taken at least just as long as coming back, so add a few thousand years.

The war that caused the dispersion of the tribes in the first place would have destroyed a lot of technology. It would take time to rediscover.

You have to think that with less than 50,000 human survivors, there are probably skills and ideas that have been lost to them. In time, as dictated by needs, those ideas will be rediscovered. This is the cycle that has been repeating.

Its not an unusual occurrence in reality. Ancient races accomplished things that we find puzzling today given what we think we know about their level of technology. So the idea of aliens helping them aside, they either had a higher level of technology than we assumed or had methods that new technologies made obsolete, and we therefore have discarded the knowledge. Some of this knowledge was lost to the decimation of populations by war and natural disasters.

[Chimp Pembry]

First of all, since they didn't have ftl, GOING to Earth would have taken at least just as long as coming back, so add a few thousand years.

The war that caused the dispersion of the tribes in the first place would have destroyed a lot of technology. It would take time to rediscover.

You have to think that with less than 50,000 human survivors, there are probably skills and ideas that have been lost to them. In time, as dictated by needs, those ideas will be rediscovered. This is the cycle that has been repeating.
You are making cases in my favor for why more advanced Cylons in the past are not viable.

Its not an unusual occurrence in reality. Ancient races accomplished things that we find puzzling today given what we think we know about their level of technology. So the idea of aliens helping them aside, they either had a higher level of technology than we assumed or had methods that new technologies made obsolete, and we therefore have discarded the knowledge. Some of this knowledge was lost to the decimation of populations by war and natural disasters.
Again, the pyramids are not the same thing as a super-advanced, basically immortal race of biological robots. Just because we don't know how they stacked heavy blocks doesn't mean the same logic can be applied to high transhumanist technology.

[CousinDave]

Again, the pyramids are not the same thing as a super-advanced, basically immortal race of biological robots. Just because we don't know how they stacked heavy blocks doesn't mean the same logic can be applied to high transhumanist technology.



Sure we do, they cast the bricks in place

[JoeyDVDZ]

Cylons are immune to human diseases, humans are immune to Cylon diseases. President's cancer and the ship with the Cylon-killing disease is a good example. Cylons have ridiculous strength, people don't. Cylons have glowing spines when they're fucking. People don't.


Perhaps so, but what about their decendants? I'm assuming that artificial components don't pass on to the offspring. Thus, the baby "cylons" would, for all intents and purposes, be humans.

[Chimp Pembry]

Perhaps so, but what about their decendants? I'm assuming that artificial components don't pass on to the offspring. Thus, the baby "cylons" would, for all intents and purposes, be humans.

There's another thing. We can get pregnant, they can't. If people don't exist, the series is retarded for a couple reasons. Reason one, why am I watching it since it's now become the robot version of Lancelot Link (to keep show-relevant). Two, the Cylons killing other Cylons officially becomes retarded genocide instead of just genocide. Three - why evolve to look like people. People don't exist. If they try that mindfuck, this series will end up being as big a disappointment as the show the ended up being a retarded kid's dream.

[Beeman99]

Wtf happened tonight

[Aero 1]

Wtf happened tonight

the final 5 invented easy abortions

[LiddyRules]

Tonight was the back door pilot for the spinoff God Gaius and his Gorgeous Girl Gang.

[MrBogey]

You are making cases in my favor for why more advanced Cylons in the past are not viable.


Again, the pyramids are not the same thing as a super-advanced, basically immortal race of biological robots. Just because we don't know how they stacked heavy blocks doesn't mean the same logic can be applied to high transhumanist technology.

They don't even remember why they left Kobol. There's a lot of stuff lost to time.

[THE FEZ MAN]

im confused, i really hope they bring some kind of logical end to this, whats left? 10epps? they have an awful lot of explaining to do between now and then.

i think part of the key is going to be that the final 5 are really the "adam and eve" of the 12 colony's and they were human when they fled earth with some loyal centurians as allies, oh and what happened to lucy lawless? did she get whacked and i missed it?

[MrBogey]

Lawless stayed on Earth. Said to hell with this.

[THE FEZ MAN]

ahhh ok i missed that, i was just wondering.

[Radioguy]

Are we to assume she's dead? (What with the radiation and apparent lack of vegetation)

[cosmic cow]

There's another thing. We can get pregnant, they can't. If people don't exist, the series is retarded for a couple reasons. Reason one, why am I watching it since it's now become the robot version of Lancelot Link (to keep show-relevant). Two, the Cylons killing other Cylons officially becomes retarded genocide instead of just genocide. Three - why evolve to look like people. People don't exist. If they try that mindfuck, this series will end up being as big a disappointment as the show the ended up being a retarded kid's dream.

the show already is retarded in many ways. The cylons on galactica didn't know they were cylon and their human friends had no idea. They grew up as human, went to human doctors etc.

different generations of cylons from different times and planets and now the cylons have no idea who is cylon or not.........in my theory humans became extinct a long time ago but the cylons they created lived on, built other newer cylons who went to different planets who then themselves built newer machines...eventually the newer machines turn on their makers and destroy them and move on, over and over again..........i'm sticking with no humans left.

[cosmic cow]

Cylons have glowing spines when they're fucking. People don't.

do they? then how come nobody questioned this when the cylons on galactica or caprica got fucked by humans?

how many people did Ellen frak? and nobody noticed her glowing spine

[CousinDave]

do they? then how come nobody questioned this when the cylons on galactica or caprica got fucked by humans?

how many people did Ellen frak? and nobody noticed her glowing spine


The Earth Cylons spines probably don't glow

[Beeman99]

how they are going to wrap this up with only 4 eps left will be interesting to say the least. I have a feeling it'll be another "meh" finale

[JoeyDVDZ]

I honestly believe we're going to discover that there are no humans left. Just different versions and generations of cylons. Just sayin.

[Budyzir]

OK, I missed something, what the hell is that red stuff on the beams of the ship, and why do they need to cover it up with that Cylon goo?

[MrBogey]

It's metal fatigue. The ship is losing structural integrity and the cylons have a bio-organic resin which can strengthen the hull.

[mascan42]

do they? then how come nobody questioned this when the cylons on galactica or caprica got fucked by humans?

how many people did Ellen frak? and nobody noticed her glowing spine
The Colonials haven't invented doggy-style or reverse-cowgirl yet.

[mascan42]

Meh. This episode was a bit too soap-opera for me, but it was okay. The pieces continue to move into their final positions, in preparation for the endgame.

[JoeyDVDZ]

I have a theory:

What if Starbuck is the original half cylon-half human? What if a Leoben copy knocked up Starbuck's mom & Starbuck is the result?

Certainly would explain Leoben's facination with her.

Could be interesting...

[cosmic cow]

Maybe Starbuck is the offspring of Sheeba and Count Iblis.

[JoeyDVDZ]

Damn, was tonight's ep that bad that nobody is discussing it?

[CousinDave]

I haven't watched it yet

[BalloonKnotB]

It felt a bit like a filler -- downer depressing episode with a bang of an ending.

Only 3 episodes left. I don't think everyone's going to live happily ever after.

Brilliant show.

[JoeyDVDZ]

Yeah, just finished watching it myself. One hell of a downer, and next week looks even more depressing! Sheesh, ya'd think that earth being a nuked wasteland was the end of the world! :)

[patbattlefield]

where the fuck is this going?

[THE FEZ MAN]

yea it did feel like filler, even though it wasnt filler as much as setting up for the "end game" and yes i agree this isnt going to end well. i do think that maybe starbuck is the original "hybrid" it would explain a lot about her.

[cosmic cow]

this episode sucked so much, i want them all to die already. Amazing what the chief can do in the dark.......i guess no one has flashlights but they do have a piano, was there a piano, something about a piano

i was angry watching this episode

and I've hated the president from day one

[Aero 1]

it was a great episode. it was a set-up for the final confrontation between Cavil and the colonials/cylons. Since the beginning of the series, it has been said that Hera is the future of the cylons, Cavil wants to make sure that doesnt happen since he doesnt want human feelings and what not.

Now they are setting up the Starcunt story line and what she really is, and you know Anders is going to wake up and reveal what she is.

I still say this is all an Adama dream when he first wakes up in the Miniseries before the Galactica decommission. If thats true, that would suck.

[AngryPest]

First 45 mins was a total waste. Would have been better 2 seasons ago. Why waste so much time with only 3 or 4 episodes to go.

[Budyzir]

where the fuck is this going?

I was thinking the same thing as I watched this episode.

[chumpy]

Do you think it's possible that her father is the 7 that was turned off making her a hybrid?

[patbattlefield]

I was thinking the same thing as I watched this episode.

Lost has a more soluble plot direction at this point.

[THE FEZ MAN]

im wondering the same thing, with only 4 epps left they have a ton of new stuff to wrap up. i almost wonder if they are some how going to force a truce with the other cylons and return to either caprica or kobol, i have a funny feeling that there going to maybe get one more jump out of galactica before they have to scuttle her or ground her

[ruckstande]

im wondering the same thing, with only 4 epps left they have a ton of new stuff to wrap up. i almost wonder if they are some how going to force a truce with the other cylons and return to either caprica or kobol, i have a funny feeling that there going to maybe get one more jump out of galactica before they have to scuttle her or ground her

I thought all of that cylon goop was supposed to fix Galactica.

[Budyzir]

Lost has a more soluble plot direction at this point.

Sadly I have to agree. This is getting tooo convoluted.

[Chimp Pembry]

I have never seen a show go from epic to shit in two episodes. They'd better pull out of this nosedive just as quick.

[Turfmower]

I just watched it. Is Hera and Starbuck the same person? Are the notes a map that leads to Earth?

[Aero 1]

I just watched it. Is Hera and Starbuck the same person? Are the notes a map that leads to Earth?

no, hera is a dark haired gook and starbuck is a white blond cunt

[CousinDave]

I just watched it. Is Hera and Starbuck the same person? Are the notes a map that leads to Earth?


Starbuck is the daughter of Daniel the missing #7. He resurrected her when she crash landed on Cylon Earth.

The notes were of the music that turned the Earth Cylons on.

[Chimp Pembry]

Starbuck is the daughter of Daniel the missing #7. He resurrected her when she crash landed on Cylon Earth.
All I have to say is this better not be true.

[cosmic cow]

Starbuck is the daughter of Daniel the missing #7. He resurrected her when she crash landed on Cylon Earth.

The notes were of the music that turned the Earth Cylons on.

and how did her viper travel so far to earth? I don't think the writers know what starbuck is.

I still say she's the offspring of Count Iblis (he creeped me out when I was a kid, kind of like the space vampire on buck rogers). I'm waiting for the ship of lights to arrive.

[CousinDave]

and how did her viper travel so far to earth? I don't think the writers know what starbuck is.

I still say she's the offspring of Count Iblis (he creeped me out when I was a kid, kind of like the space vampire on buck rogers). I'm waiting for the ship of lights to arrive.


The 7 model is responsible for all the seemingly supernatural events.

[Chimp Pembry]

This show with every episode is plunging towards "completely fucking retarded, implausible and poorly-told."

[THE FEZ MAN]

This show with every episode is plunging towards "completely fucking retarded, implausible and poorly-told."

i wouldn't go that far, but i defiantly think that they are rushing with all the the new "revelations" they could easily stretch these into another season

[mascan42]

Here's my theory, spoilered in case it turns out to be true.
Back on Kobol, a group of humans developed resurrection technology which allowed them to transfer their consciousness to an artificial body upon their death, which is how they became Cylons. This was looked down upon by the others, and they formed the 13th Tribe, and left Kobol before the other 12 tribes. The technology was abandoned at some point after they came to Earth and started procreating naturally again. The Final Five recreated it, and it probably still exists somewhere on Earth, and it resurrected Starbuck when she crashed. Thus Starbuck is now a Cylon.

[ruckstande]

Here's my theory, spoilered in case it turns out to be true.
Back on Kobol, a group of humans developed resurrection technology which allowed them to transfer their consciousness to an artificial body upon their death, which is how they became Cylons. This was looked down upon by the others, and they formed the 13th Tribe, and left Kobol before the other 12 tribes. The technology was abandoned at some point after they came to Earth and started procreating naturally again. The Final Five recreated it, and it probably still exists somewhere on Earth, and it resurrected Starbuck when she crashed. Thus Starbuck is now a Cylon.

Did it resurrect her spaceship too?

[Your_Moms_Box]

Here is my spoiler theory... it will start by explaining the MAJOR flaw in the whole series and why the simple explanation is true.


first, the major flaw... the humans on Kobol created cylons and turned it into a "death planet" and then the 12 human tribes went one way and the 1 cylon tribe went to Earth..... But they just FORGOT the trouble that would come with creating cylons and didn't make any references to it being a bad idea to create artificial life?!?!?! they destroyed a civilazation and didn't leave any warnings to their decendants about it? Very unlikely.

My theory is that the humans on Kobol created cylons, and they evolved to the skin jobs, and for whatever reason (probably disease) the humans were extinct. then, thirteen CYLON colonies went on their seperate ways.

Everyone is a cylon. There are no humans.

[Your_Moms_Box]

Has it been pointed out that starcunt looked a lot like Aurora Snow when she had the long hair on new caprica?

[Chimp Pembry]

I can't see how they can unsour my opinion of this show. I really can't.

[AngryPest]

i wouldn't go that far, but i defiantly think that they are rushing with all the the new "revelations" they could easily stretch these into another season

From what I have read, the only reason Season 4 happened was that Moore promised that they would end the series.
The show's ratings are in the dumpster. Worse that the Terminator series. Then again its on cable.

[Chimp Pembry]

The show's ratings are in the dumpster. Worse that the Terminator series. Then again its on Sci Fi.

Fixed.

[Your_Moms_Box]

7 minutes till the 53 minute tease of David's identity.

[cosmic cow]

fuck this piece of shit show....die already!!!....

..i haven't started watching yet

[LiddyRules]

Return of Scientist Baltar

[THE FEZ MAN]

im getting ready to shoot the tv

[LiddyRules]

Well next week it looks like people might be getting into ships.

[Your_Moms_Box]

Do they realize I will never get that hour of my life back?

what the fuck happened to this show? the first 3.5 seasons were fucking amazing....

[ruckstande]

This should be the Let's Watch Adama Cry show. Faggot.

[AngryPest]

This show is like watching a beloved cancer patient die.

[cosmic cow]

fuck this piece of shit show....die already!!!....

..i haven't started watching yet

wow, it was even worse than i thought it would be. growing up battlestar was one of my favorite shows. this version had promise but is almost unwatchable now...the writers/producers should never work again

i read that a spin off will be out soon "Caprica" and will show the humans creating the cylons ...etc.. do these prequels ever work out? I hate them because you already know what will happen

this show fell flat on its face i give it an F-

[JoeyDVDZ]

It was a pretty disappointing episode. Nothing driving the endgame plot forward, lots of emo bullshit, the ONLY redeeming factor was Baltar coming back to sicence guy mode. It's only two more eps, they're gonna have a fuck of a time wrapping this shit up!

[LiddyRules]

It was a pretty disappointing episode. Nothing driving the endgame plot forward, lots of emo bullshit, the ONLY redeeming factor was Baltar coming back to sicence guy mode. It's only two more eps, they're gonna have a fuck of a time wrapping this shit up!

I thought three more episodes with two airing on March 20.

[Your_Moms_Box]

two episodes, next week is pt 1, and then the following week is the 2 hour part 2

[JoeyDVDZ]

Ah, I didn't realize they were doing a 2 hr finale. I guess that does count as 3 eps, tho they're calling it two on the commercials they ran last week when they said "three eps to go".

[Beeman99]

Aero thought it was a great ep, he loves gay soap opera shit

[ruckstande]

This show has just been gradually becoming a disappointment. I don't mind that it is becoming a drama but make a fucking point or GTFO! Lost is 10X more confusing but at least you get something to discuss each week. Also, I think BSG is in the running for most commercials in a series ever.

[mascan42]

Okay. I've been thinking this out, and I think I've got it figured. See if this makes sense.

Thousands of years ago on Kobol, there existed 12 tribes of humans. Some people invented a form of immortality - a way to transfer their consciousness into an artificial body upon their death. Thus they became the first Cylons.

These artificial bodies had one drawback - they couldn't reproduce biologically. So they became addicted to resurrecting over and over again instead as a way of keeping their bloodline going. The regular humans of the 12 tribes looked down upon this, and expelled the Cylons, who became their own tribe. War broke out, and the ostracized 13th tribe left Kobol ahead of the others.

Upon finding Earth, they eventually learned to reproduce naturally again, and abandoned resurrection technology. Not recognizing the parallels, they developed their own robotic Cylons, and war eventually broke out again. But before this, five scientists were warned of the coming apocalypse by mysterious messengers - who may have also been responsible for the building of the Temple of the Five during the Cylons journey to Earth. They recreated the ancient resurrection technology, and left to return to their human cousins to warn them against tampering with artificial life (again not recognizing the irony that they themselves were descended from artificial lifeforms).

Now Starbuck enters the picture: she is lured into the Maelstrom by a mysterious messenger, who leads her to Earth, where she dies. Her consciousness was captured by the remnants of the F5's resurrection equipment on Earth, but it had no body to download it into. So the messengers/angels/Head People (who do have a physical form somewhere, which we haven't seen yet) recreated her body from her DNA. The delay is the reason for her two-month absence. Thus Starbuck is now a Cylon. After building a replica of her Viper - with a homing beacon to find Earth again - they returned her to the fleet.

[cosmic cow]

Okay. I've been thinking this out, and I think I've got it figured. See if this makes sense.

Thousands of years ago on Kobol, there existed 12 tribes of humans. Some people invented a form of immortality - a way to transfer their consciousness into an artificial body upon their death. Thus they became the first Cylons.

These artificial bodies had one drawback - they couldn't reproduce biologically. So they became addicted to resurrecting over and over again instead as a way of keeping their bloodline going. The regular humans of the 12 tribes looked down upon this, and expelled the Cylons, who became their own tribe. War broke out, and the ostracized 13th tribe left Kobol ahead of the others.

Upon finding Earth, they eventually learned to reproduce naturally again, and abandoned resurrection technology. Not recognizing the parallels, they developed their own robotic Cylons, and war eventually broke out again. But before this, five scientists were warned of the coming apocalypse by mysterious messengers - who may have also been responsible for the building of the Temple of the Five during the Cylons journey to Earth. They recreated the ancient resurrection technology, and left to return to their human cousins to warn them against tampering with artificial life (again not recognizing the irony that they themselves were descended from artificial lifeforms).

Now Starbuck enters the picture: she is lured into the Maelstrom by a mysterious messenger, who leads her to Earth, where she dies. Her consciousness was captured by the remnants of the F5's resurrection equipment on Earth, but it had no body to download it into. So the messengers/angels/Head People (who do have a physical form somewhere, which we haven't seen yet) recreated her body from her DNA. The delay is the reason for her two-month absence. Thus Starbuck is now a Cylon. After building a replica of her Viper - with a homing beacon to find Earth again - they returned her to the fleet.

why give her a beacon to Earth if its destroyed? and the whole building her a new viper is shakey....however it ends i'm sure i will not be impressed

[mascan42]

why give her a beacon to Earth if its destroyed? and the whole building her a new viper is shakey....however it ends i'm sure i will not be impressed
The only reasoning I can come up with is to lead the Final 5 to discover their origins. Why they would want that is another question entirely. I think the answers to a lot of this has to do with the exact nature of the messengers/angels.

[Sunsetspawn]

Yes, the show has been sucking black cock, however, did anyone notice something funny in the last episode when Boomer was fleeing with Hera. She jumped into a system with a very familiar looking gas giant right behind her.

Here's my theory. The "earth" they found is just a bullshit class M that was settled by Cylons, and Earth is still yet to be found. Boomer jumped right through the Sol system and picked up ZERO radio chatter. So, when the fleet really does find Earth, it's either going to be way in the past, which will set up the colonials as the starters of civilization, religion, or some such shit. Perhaps Baltar is Jesus. Whatever.
Or, option B, maybe it's a bit in the future and so-ciety has completely collapsed. It won't be nuked because that's been done, but perhaps fossil fuels have run out, or global warming choked us out, or whatever.

Maybe I'm just hoping the series really ends on a cool high note and drops this melodrama bullshit.

Other points to remember
The Pres wasn't supposed to live to step on Earth. Kara crashed into some gas giant in the middle of fucking nowhere, now how did her remains get light years away onto some nuked mess? What the fuck happened to all of the prophetic means to get to Earth(eye of Jupiter, etc). Oh no, they just used the cum dumpsters raptor to find Earth. That doesn't make sense. Kara and Hera both knew a song that seems to spell out something important that the final five are also aware of. Is Kara a hybrid like Hera? I tried to pause on the notes to see if there were nine of them, but I couldn't get the whole page in frame. Nine planets in our system, or eight. Or maybe the notes are a series of jumps that lead to Earth. Remember when Kara had all of the shit in her head, and she drew pictures of the Eye of Jupiter. I'm rambling.

[LiddyRules]

I think the problem with this season is there's no end point and there's no villain. In previous seasons it was all about finding Earth and escaping the Cylons. Now, they're friends with the Cylons, Cavill's ship doesn't seem like an immediate threat, and there's not really headed anyway. I don't think this season established well-enough the "well fuck, we found Earth, it blew, what are we going to do now?" element.

[patbattlefield]

Okay. I've been thinking this out, and I think I've got it figured. See if this makes sense.

Thousands of years ago on Kobol, there existed 12 tribes of humans. Some people invented a form of immortality - a way to transfer their consciousness into an artificial body upon their death. Thus they became the first Cylons.

These artificial bodies had one drawback - they couldn't reproduce biologically. So they became addicted to resurrecting over and over again instead as a way of keeping their bloodline going. The regular humans of the 12 tribes looked down upon this, and expelled the Cylons, who became their own tribe. War broke out, and the ostracized 13th tribe left Kobol ahead of the others.

Upon finding Earth, they eventually learned to reproduce naturally again, and abandoned resurrection technology. Not recognizing the parallels, they developed their own robotic Cylons, and war eventually broke out again. But before this, five scientists were warned of the coming apocalypse by mysterious messengers - who may have also been responsible for the building of the Temple of the Five during the Cylons journey to Earth. They recreated the ancient resurrection technology, and left to return to their human cousins to warn them against tampering with artificial life (again not recognizing the irony that they themselves were descended from artificial lifeforms).

Now Starbuck enters the picture: she is lured into the Maelstrom by a mysterious messenger, who leads her to Earth, where she dies. Her consciousness was captured by the remnants of the F5's resurrection equipment on Earth, but it had no body to download it into. So the messengers/angels/Head People (who do have a physical form somewhere, which we haven't seen yet) recreated her body from her DNA. The delay is the reason for her two-month absence. Thus Starbuck is now a Cylon. After building a replica of her Viper - with a homing beacon to find Earth again - they returned her to the fleet.



No no no. I got it.

The writers got to the point where they found earth and said, "Oh shit we have no clue what to do next" and just smoked pot.

[Sunsetspawn]

No no no. I got it.

The writers got to the point where they found earth and said, "Oh shit we have no clue what to do next" and just smoked pot.

Hmmm...

That sounds about right.

I think the problem with this season is there's no end point and there's no villain. In previous seasons it was all about finding Earth and escaping the Cylons. Now, they're friends with the Cylons, Cavill's ship doesn't seem like an immediate threat, and there's not really headed anyway. I don't think this season established well-enough the "well fuck, we found Earth, it blew, what are we going to do now?" element.

This really is everything wrong with this season. There is nothing cohesive going on that fans can anticipate. They've literally just given us "Oh on, the show is ending" to hold onto. If this were any other season the viewers would drop off and the show would be cancelled. Hera should've been abducted awhile back and this entire season should've slowly revealed just what the fuck is going on.

[CousinDave]

I never thought that planet was Earth - its Terra.

I was thinking, the show is called Battlestar Galactica and not The Tribes of Kobal or something like that. If the Galactica is destroyed that's the end of the show, with no resolution to the story.

[Chimp Pembry]

Okay. I've been thinking this out, and I think I've got it figured. See if this makes sense.

Thousands of years ago on Kobol, there existed 12 tribes of humans. Some people invented a form of immortality - a way to transfer their consciousness into an artificial body upon their death. Thus they became the first Cylons.

These artificial bodies had one drawback - they couldn't reproduce biologically. So they became addicted to resurrecting over and over again instead as a way of keeping their bloodline going. The regular humans of the 12 tribes looked down upon this, and expelled the Cylons, who became their own tribe. War broke out, and the ostracized 13th tribe left Kobol ahead of the others.

Upon finding Earth, they eventually learned to reproduce naturally again, and abandoned resurrection technology. Not recognizing the parallels, they developed their own robotic Cylons, and war eventually broke out again. But before this, five scientists were warned of the coming apocalypse by mysterious messengers - who may have also been responsible for the building of the Temple of the Five during the Cylons journey to Earth. They recreated the ancient resurrection technology, and left to return to their human cousins to warn them against tampering with artificial life (again not recognizing the irony that they themselves were descended from artificial lifeforms).

Now Starbuck enters the picture: she is lured into the Maelstrom by a mysterious messenger, who leads her to Earth, where she dies. Her consciousness was captured by the remnants of the F5's resurrection equipment on Earth, but it had no body to download it into. So the messengers/angels/Head People (who do have a physical form somewhere, which we haven't seen yet) recreated her body from her DNA. The delay is the reason for her two-month absence. Thus Starbuck is now a Cylon. After building a replica of her Viper - with a homing beacon to find Earth again - they returned her to the fleet.
If this is the story, I HATE this show.

[RoleModel]

The only thing keeping me tuned in is the fact that I've invested in so much of the show already and there's only three episodes left. If they were this bad in season 2, I would've bailed long ago.

[Your_Moms_Box]

I only watch the show now because I feel like i've got pocket aces, and there is only the river left, and even though the board shows 9 10 J Q, and i KNOW the other guy has pocket Kings, i'm pot commited and just refuse to fold...

[LiddyRules]

I just read an amazing spoiler for next week's episode. It'll completely make this season worth it. It's incredible.

Adama looks at Galactica and cries.

[cosmic cow]

I just read an amazing spoiler for next week's episode. It'll completely make this season worth it. It's incredible.

Adama looks at Galactica and cries.

NNNNNNOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[THE FEZ MAN]

oh this isn't looking good. i really see a "Star trek next generation" shitty ending to this series.

want to bet when they jump to the base there is more than one galactica there

[JoeyDVDZ]

oh this isn't looking good. i really see a "Star trek next generation" shitty ending to this series.

want to bet when they jump to the base there is more than one galactica there

Or all the debris is the pieces of the old galacticas?

[THE FEZ MAN]

im thinking more along the lines of the black hole bending time. that's why the hybrids keep talking about "how it has all happened before and will happen again"

[mascan42]

With only 2 hours left, either they're going to leave a shitload of stuff unanswered, or Sam will start vomiting exposition again. Wow, this show really went to shit fast over the last month or so.

[THE FEZ MAN]

With only 2 hours left, either they're going to leave a shitload of stuff unanswered, or Sam will start vomiting exposition again. Wow, this show really went to shit fast over the last month or so.

it was more like its been shit since the writers strike. they never fully recovered. i think they should have drug out the last season for at least a few more episodes to explain shit a little more, not a lot, just more than they are going to be able to in a two hour episode. either that or they are leaving a huge hole to be filled buy a few feature length movies

[Budyzir]

im thinking more along the lines of the black hole bending time. that's why the hybrids keep talking about "how it has all happened before and will happen again"

I think you may have something there Fez.

When this series started, I was so into it and waited anxiously for every episode, now I just DVR it and watch on Saturday. The only reason I still follow it is because of all the time I invested in it.

With this 2 hour finale, I only hope the writers pull a rabbit out of the hat and justify my investment.

[Chimp Pembry]

That better be the most spectacular rabbit ever. Because holy shit, this show when from 60 to 0 in less than a commercial break.

[LiddyRules]

it was more like its been shit since the writers strike. they never fully recovered. i think they should have drug out the last season for at least a few more episodes to explain shit a little more, not a lot, just more than they are going to be able to in a two hour episode. either that or they are leaving a huge hole to be filled buy a few feature length movies I never buy into the "they're saving answers for the movie" excuse. I didn't believe it for The Sopranos, I don't believe it for BSG. It seems anytime a show ends in a way that people don't want it to then, they accuse the creators of just wanting to make big screen movies. Post-finale big screen movies are so incredibly rare and for a niche show just as this, I don't see it happening.

That being said, I think they could have done plenty without needing new episodes, they just meandered quite a bit after the mutiny.

[LiddyRules]

So...anyone think Gaius is going to do the whole "sacrifice himself" thing and then the show will end with a "one year later" showing one of his sexy ass followers as Congresswoman?

I know it seems too obvious but with this season...

I really hope he doesn't though. Not just because it's obvious but because I always feel a certain affinity towards weasely worms.

[AngryPest]

Well here is a pretty acrurate review...
InHead Ron Pays Me a Visit, Daybreak Spoilers - like that matters at this point
http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2327368
It was on Friday evening. The kids were finally in bed. I was steeling myself to watch what was mercifully the penultimate episode of a series that has been Battlestar Galactica in name only.

That’s when he appeared out of thin air.

Or perhaps I should say “she.” I initially mistook the apparition for a male, given his dark, healthy beard, but his bleached blonde Seventies hair, his stiletto heels, and the red cocktail dress that left far too little to the imagination said otherwise. Plus, his moustache was smeared with harloty lipstick.

“Who… what…” I tried to come up with a coherent sentence, but I was thrown off my game by the scraggly, insectoidish hairs that were poking through his sheer nylons.

“Pleased to meet you,” the lumbering androgyne said in a husky voice. He extended his hand. “Ron Moore,” he offered by way of introduction.

“Ron Moore?” I sputtered, aghast. “What are you doing here?”

“Well, I’m not really here,” he said, smiling. “I’m not THE Ron Moore, you understand. I’m only in your head. Like Caprica 6 in Baltar. Or Baltar in Caprica 6. That kind of thing. Either way, there’s always a red dress involved. Or maybe a piano. And I can’t play anything but ‘Chopsticks.’ ” With that, he tilted awkwardly on his left heel and almost stumbled over backwards.

I raised an eyebrow, artfully. “I don’t understand. How did you get here?”

“Well,” he began as he regained his balance, “there are a number of possible explanations,” he said. “Languatron could have put a chip in your brain while you were sleeping. Or you could have sniffed too much sheep dip. Or perhaps I’m an angel, sent by the one true Cylon God, Dirk Benedict.”

“OK, then,” I said, “which is it?”

“What?”

“Which is it? How do you explain yourself? And the others like you?”

InHeadMooreWhore then laughed a low, throaty laugh, like Bea Arthur at a bordello Christmas party. “Explain? Why should I explain?” He reached behind himself to get his panties out of a bunch. “Other shows explain things. We’re much more sophisticated than that.”

“Sophisticated?” I said. “How is it sophisticated to avoid answering a fundamental question that your audience has been asking for four years?”

“Oh, I’m happy to answer questions,” chuckled the IHMW. “This week is the first part of the series finale, after all. It’s chock full of answers to the burning questions that sophisticated viewers ought to be asking. For instance, we finally find out how Roslin’s sisters and father died.”

“We what?” I said.

“Haven’t you always wondered how they died?”

“Well, not really,” I answered. “I’d never given a moment’s thought to Roslin’s father or sisters. I didn’t know she had sisters. And if I had thought of it, I guess I’d just have assumed that they blew up along with the 50 billion other people in the Cylon nuclear holocaust.”

“Wrong!” IHMW cackled, clapping his hands sophisticatedly. “They were killed by a drunk driver!”

I shifted uneasily, unsure of how to respond to this.

Still, the Ronnette continued. “And do you know what Roslin did right after she heard the news?”

Still speechless, I shook my head.

“She went outside.” IHMW smiled a toothy grin.

“That’s all? She just… went outside?”

“No,” Ronnette snorted. “That is NOT all. She walked into a public fountain and stood there, fully clothed, while everyone gaped at her. She just stood under the spraying stream and let the water pour on her hair. Which is ironic, because she no longer has hair. We make this point using cinematographic juxtaposition,” Moore said, speaking with so much sophistication that I physically shuddered.

“Oh,” I said. “But what about –“

“What about Adama’s job interview?” Ronnette interrupted. “That’s what you were going to say, right?”

“What?”

“Haven’t you ever wondered what Adama’s job interview to take over the Galactica was like?”

“No,” I said. “Not at all.”

“Well, shows how deep you are,” the Mooreine sniffed. “Because there was a job interview. With an old bald guy. We’re going to be sure to show that in the finale.”

“Why?”

“What?”

“I said ‘why?’” I was befuddled, and not just by the beefy scent of the apparition’s Burger King perfume. “I mean, you’ve only got three hours left, and you have a lot of ground to cover. You really want to waste the last bit of time you have to wrap everything up with throwaway footage from Adama’s job interview?”

“Well, maybe you’re right,” Moore said, nodding. “We have to leave time to see the first time Lee, Kara, and Zack went out to dinner.”

“Excuse me?”

“See, Lee shows up at Kara’s apartment and they meet each other. And they exchange pleasantries. And then Lee says hi to his brother. And they engage in playful banter. And Kara wears a very feminine dress, which is not typical of what she wears nowadays. So you learn that Kara was less butch when she was engaged to a dude who’s now dead. That answers a lot of questions, don’t you think?”

“What questions?”

“You know. Questions. Real questions. Questions like ‘was Kara less butch when she was engaged to a dude who’s now dead?’ And ‘did Lee and Zack ever engage in playful banter before going out to dinner?’ Questions like that.”

I shook my head. “What if I couldn’t care less about questions like that?”

“That means you’re shallow and have no appreciation for character development,” he/she said. “Plus I need that scene to set up the answer to an even more important question.”

“Which is?”

“Which is,” Moore drawled, exasperated, “what would a drunken Lee Adama do if he were attacked by a pigeon?”

“What would…”

“The answer, just so you know, is that he would shoo the pigeon away with a broom.”

“I see,” I said. “But we haven’t even gotten to…”

“To Baltar’s Scottish father, you’re right,” Moore said. “We have to leave about half the time to point out that Baltar’s dad was a dirty old coot with a Scottish accent. On all twelve colonies, only Baltar and his father are British, you know. Sure, Xena Cylon #3 was from New Zealand, but that hardly counts, does it? Wait, don’t answer that question. It’s not sophisticated enough.”

Somewhere in the distance, a pie drooped.

“Those aren’t my questions,” I said. “I want to know-“

“- about Baltar’s dad’s rest home arrangements? Of course you do. Don’t worry. Caprica 6 took care of those. That shows what a kind, giving lady she was, if you overlook her killing babies and blowing up a dozen inhabited planets.”

“See, that’s the problem,” I said, ignoring the drooping pie. “You realize that you have not satisfyingly answered the question at the root of this show’s premise?”

“I haven’t?” Moore said, frowning. “Should I have explained how much of Colonial rest homes are covered by Medicaire?”

“No,” I said. “You still, after four years, haven’t explained why the Cylons blew up the Colonies.”

Moore scoffed. “Ummm, go watch the miniseries again, pinhead,” he said, sounding even more sophisticated than a delicate Grecian urn. “Children have to outgrow their parents.”

“Which, of course, explains nothing,” I said. “For instance, I outgrew my parents and moved out of the house, yet somehow I managed not to kill them in the process. And now we learn that the parents of the Cylons who planned the holocaust were the Final Five, not humans at all. And they created the skinjobs to avoid the holocaust that the skinjobs planned. And the one skinjob who claims the whole thing was a mistake is the one who’s behind it all, even now. We were told they have a plan; we were tantalized with lots of mysteries that have been retconned or ignored completely, and as the clock runs out, you’re doing everything you can to change the subject, to avoid facing the fact that the core premise of your show is a gaping black hole of incoherence.”

“George Bush sucks, though,” Moore said. “Don’t forget that. And Roslin got set up on a blind date once. After her family died in that crash. Didn’t you want to know about that?”

And then, somewhere, deep in the forest, a pinecone passed gas, despite having no digestive system. How sophisticated is that?

[Your_Moms_Box]

I never buy into the "they're saving answers for the movie" excuse. I didn't believe it for The Sopranos, I don't believe it for BSG. It seems anytime a show ends in a way that people don't want it to then, they accuse the creators of just wanting to make big screen movies. Post-finale big screen movies are so incredibly rare and for a niche show just as this, I don't see it happening.

That being said, I think they could have done plenty without needing new episodes, they just meandered quite a bit after the mutiny.

Was I the only one who LOVED the sopranos ending?

I think it worked for that series though, it wouldn't work for BSG.

[LiddyRules]

Was I the only one who LOVED the sopranos ending? I grew to appreciate the ending if I didn't like that final season/episode as a whole. I was referring to how after any show ends semi-unsatisfactory people always cry "They just want to do big screen movies!"

[Chimp Pembry]

I'm not gonna lie AngryPest, what you quoted was unbearably douchy and impossible to read.

EDIT: And if that's the intention, it's written better than anything ever. Because I got in two sentence and had to punch out. Holy shit.

[AngryPest]

That why I quoted it.

[ruckstande]

That why I quoted it.

I thought it ruled. It made me appreciate how ridiculous these episodes are.

[Chimp Pembry]

That why I quoted it.

I've never actually been caused physical distress from text before.

[LiddyRules]

It seems the past few episodes have been all about making us realize how much we'll miss these characters when they're gone. But I'm not that invested with the characters to really care about spending more and more time being reminded that we should and why we should care about them and feel bad that it's coming to an end.

[martianvirus]

My biggest problem with this shitty show is that when they are in jail, there is a metal mesh with holes in it. But when someone on the outside wants to talk to the person on the inside, they have to use a shitty looking phone that belongs in the 19th century. The retard that created this stupid BSG world should be shot.

[Chimp Pembry]

Uhhh...did you miss the entire first season? The one that explained why lowtech Galatica is the safest Battlestar in the fleet?

[MrBogey]

My biggest problem with this shitty show is that when they are in jail, there is a metal mesh with holes in it. But when someone on the outside wants to talk to the person on the inside, they have to use a shitty looking phone that belongs in the 19th century. The retard that created this stupid BSG world should be shot.

That shitty looking phone is a realistic phone handset for secure telecommunications. The Battlestar was designed to fight walking computers. Why help them by making the thing high tech?

Sorry not all of sci-fi looks like Voyager.

[martianvirus]

You both missed my point. Two people are separated by a mesh of metal. They can poke each others eyes out. But yet they need a phone to talk.

[THE FEZ MAN]

theres glass between them

[ruckstande]

You both missed my point. Two people are separated by a mesh of metal. They can poke each others eyes out. But yet they need a phone to talk.

I lol'd a lot.

[Chimp Pembry]

You both missed my point. Two people are separated by a mesh of metal. They can poke each others eyes out. But yet they need a phone to talk.

There's glass too.

[MrBogey]

Did anyone point out that there's glass between the mesh? Because I don't think MV noticed it.

[cosmic cow]

yeah theres glass and mess but anyone can get into the jail to bang the hot chicks...you can even turn the lights out and replace a dead cylon with a living one.

who's security is worse...Star Trek redshirts or the Galactica's?

[martianvirus]

Oh boy, that must be glass that's advanced beyond that shitty phone.

[Beeman99]

Oh boy, that must be glass that's advanced beyond that shitty phone.

they needed the phones so that the cylons couldn't take over the ship. Didn't you watch the first episode???

[martianvirus]

The first episode sucked my balls.

[Snake2k9]

12 Plotholes That Must Be Filled in the Battlestar Finale:

1. What, exactly, is this "plan" that the Cylons have?
Remember how every episode used to begin with the promise that the cylons "have a plan"? Well, what the hell was that plan? To chase the humans around and then have sex with them? To continue nuking and nuking and nuking until all the humans are gone? To find Earth? To find Kobol? To find a spiritual something-or-other? Basically the cylons always seem to be going by the seat of their pants, not sticking to any kind of plan. And now they're having a civil war. Was that part of the plan too? Seriously, help me out here: I need to understand.

http://io9.com/5174139/12-plotholes-that-must-be-filled-in-the-battlestar-finale

[LiddyRules]

12 Plotholes That Must Be Filled in the Battlestar Finale:



http://io9.com/5174139/12-plotholes-that-must-be-filled-in-the-battlestar-finale Reading that actually made me excited about tonight.

[Chimp Pembry]

Reading that reminds me just how fucking shitty this series has gotten. I don't even know if I'm going to watch this clusterfuck.

[Mindslayer]

Im hoping that the finale answers at least some of the questions, but Im not going to get my hopes too high. This season pretty much sucked balls, and at its best moments it was almost suicidally depressing to watch.

[THE FEZ MAN]

huh, new admiral likes to suck the cock

[THE FEZ MAN]

nice centurians

[ruckstande]

Well at least Star Trek looks promising.

[ruckstande]

WTF is that other show coming on? Some sort of Stargate?

[THE FEZ MAN]

wow they jumped right off the flight deck

[ruckstande]

wow they jumped right off the flight deck

Why didn't they ever do that before? I guess it would tear Galactica up?

[bluecamaro28382]

damn they rammed the cylon base. shit i didnt see that coming

[bluecamaro28382]

WTF is that other show coming on? Some sort of Stargate?

yep, new team. stuck on a ancient ship that is randomly jumping around the universe

[THE FEZ MAN]

Why didn't they ever do that before? I guess it would tear Galactica up?

yea that is one of the "snags" that is kind of universal within the world of "FTL" travel, an immense gravity distortion jumping off the flight deck is kind or like jumping into the atmosphere of a planet...

something that either doesnt happen or is a big no no.

[ruckstande]

Could they have gotten a Hera that can act?

[generoso]

minus thtat before shit in the beginng
ing all i have to say HOLY SHIT

[mascan42]

"I don't mean to rush you, but you are keeping two civilizations waiting!"

El-Oh-Fracking-El

[THE FEZ MAN]

earth

[mascan42]

Earf

[THE FEZ MAN]

i wonder if its 1980

[generoso]

or earth 2 ...linger longer

[generoso]

cavemen...

[bluecamaro28382]

the wolverine movie looks good

[ruckstande]

Yeah, God forbid they scrap the ships to build shit.

[bluecamaro28382]

wonder who will settle in africa?

[THE FEZ MAN]

well.... i say 30 mins before the lock......

[generoso]

lets live in huts..and not even have ellectricty..even money starbuck takes the trip to the sun... btw hitchhickers did this ending rdk is ripping him off hoo hooo

[KevSlider]

well.... i say 30 mins before the lock......

Want me to lock it now?

[ruckstande]

His name is Gailand right?

[Snake2k9]

Galen. Astronauts or Cavemen? Who would win in a fight?

[mascan42]

Before the attacks, the show was called Battlestar Alcoholica. Holy shit, what a load of drunks.

[KevSlider]

His name is Gailand right?

Something like that. And he'll make up the Gailic language I bet.

[ruckstande]

Galen.

Sorry, I'm trying to make a connection that probably isn't there. I'm thinking he was going to Ireland. Galen=Gaelic

[mascan42]

Galen.
An island off one of the northern continents . . . Galen = Gaelic = Ireland.

[THE FEZ MAN]

Want me to lock it now?\\


na i say 1101

[generoso]

wonder who will settle in africa?

none thats where they moved the natives. Hell somebody has to fuck a monkey for aids in few thousand years and other good things.

[THE FEZ MAN]

what is and what can never be

[ruckstande]

She's a bird now?

[ruckstande]

Laura's hot!

[THE FEZ MAN]

i always wanted to bang my old math teacher

[mascan42]

There's 15 minutes left. Enough with the fucking flashbacks! Answers, motherfucker!

[generoso]

Laura's hot!

not no more ole cancer tits is as cold as her tits

[ruckstande]

Oh that's fucked up. A separate show about "The Plan"?

[Snake2k9]

So in the end Hera wasn't important for anything,right?

[THE FEZ MAN]

i liked it

[ruckstande]

So in the end Hera wasn't important for anything,right?

Nope. Apparently not. No plan. No fucking tools. No clothes. No lights. No motorcars. Not a single luxury.

[Snake2k9]

Bunch of fucking bullshit and stupid Ron Moore with his little fucking cameo.

[ruckstande]

Opie was right! The Chinese are coming!

[generoso]

in the end not to bad .. i like it .......bed time for me ..talk more tomorrow since i have a computer again. now just need a house....

[bluecamaro28382]

i liked it

i second that

[shimrra]

I have to say on one hand it is fucking hard to end a show especially one that has such a rich and deep cast of characters.

That being said I like this ending its not the best but its been a long time since I felt like the show ended on somewhat of a high note.

That last part with all the robots we see being created today just kinda spooked me out. Everything else was kinda alright not spectacular but just alright.

[ruckstande]

It was okay. I just don't accept the fact that there is going to be a two hour footnote on "The Plan".

[mascan42]

Too many unanswered questions. But not too bad.

[shimrra]

12 Plotholes That Must Be Filled in the Battlestar Finale:



http://io9.com/5174139/12-plotholes-that-must-be-filled-in-the-battlestar-finale

Well you are going to have that answer. They had that commecial for Battlestar Galactica: The Plan.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1286130/

I take it another spin off movie like BSG: Razor.

[wcbhoy]

wow, what a bunch of cliche crap. how many other movie's premises can you cram into one half hour.

oh, i'm a bitter bitter man. a-booooooo

[FellowTraveler]

So what exactly are Caprica and Baltar? The Son and the Holy Spirit?