Howard Dean

[norton23]

This guy just seems like a complete fucking scumbag. I don't know much about politics but he just seems like a minor leaguer compared to past presidents such as Clinton and definetely next to Bush jr he looks like a tool.

He seems to be somebody who's always pissed off and when he smiles it's so fake he looks like he's saying "you all are idiots, I am god"

This guy would make a great used car salesman-he certainly has the look for it.

[Sinn Fein]

He's a flaming a-hole who thinks he can grandstand his way into the White House. His own party is beginning to resent him.

Out of all of the Democratic candidates, the only one I like is Joe Lieberman. He seems to be a genuinely good man who is honest and has good intentions. I disagree with him on some major issues, but still respect him. If someone held a gun to my head and made me vote for one of the Democrats, it would be him.

[RandomNY]

Lieberman is one, of the few, and I mean very few DEMOCRATS that understands that a strong Military, and a willingness to use it, is the only way you can have peace in this world.
He understands what we are facing with the terrorists threat.. since he is jewish and has family in ISREAL.

Dean just screams out all this crap like getting rid of all TAX CUTS yet when he was govenor he gave out TAX CUTS to large Corporations to move to Vermont.... he is going to get the nomination and then try his best to move to the center.. He will be beaten by BUSH by a landslide.


Dean talks about BREAKING UP LARGE MEDIA companies like FOX because of talk radio yet he owned a big stake in a radio station that carried RUSH Limbaugh and only was profitable because of Rush's show. The program director of that radio station was quoted in saying " We were able to hire more people and bring local programming only because Rush made us profitable."

Dean is a huge phony like the rest of them.

[Darkstar]

Dean was my governor for 8 years, so here is what I know.

What you see is not an act. That is him in a nutshell. A friend of mine interned when we were in college.

He is a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. He did give tax cuts as governor and what he wants to do is 100% correct. There are 2 types of income tax, that on wealth and that on income. The former affects the rich, the latter the middle class. The primary cuts in Bushes plan were for wealth. Cut taxes on inheritence and dividedends. Did that $400 check I got really do anything for me or the extra $5 in my paycheck. Dean wants to repeal Bush's cut and reformulate to cut taxes on income, not wealth which is what will help the middle class.

He did give tax cuts to corporations to bring in business to the state. From an economic stand point that is great. By cutting their property tax for 10 years they bring in 1000 jobs. You make more off of the payroll and other taxes, revenue, etc. than you would off the property and you have increased the long term tax base of the state. All good govenors do this, both dem and repub.

He believes in a strong military and wants to increase the defense budget, primarily he want to pay our troops more, which they deserve.

Now, Bush vs. Dean. These will be the two on the ballot. I don't know if Dean will do well on the national stage. The flip side is that I don't trust Bush to pump gas. Every corporation he touched tanked. Usually right before it hit rock bottom his Dad's friends would buy out his shares and he would resign,

His tax cuts only real benefit was too the rich.
He invaded a sovreign nation when NATO and the UN both asked us not too. I wouldn't have had a problem with this if he said we were going in to take out someone that is massacring his own people, like Melosivich, but he lied about the evidence and did it and now can't back up his reason for going in.

The economy: he has had zip to do with the turn around. Low interest rates and special deals from companies have turned it around. That and the fact that business is cyclical and it will do so on its own. His father got caught in one of these cycles. His father is also an intelligent man that got screwed by Reagen's short term economic policies which had devistating long tterm effects.

Bush actually is having awful long term affects that are being put into place. He increase spending dramatically, but cut taxes and then started a war. Our deficit is now 6% of GDP, generally when it reaches 4% nations become concerned. At 6-7% nations lending you money start to jack up interest rates or stop lending. This is beginning to take hold now if you look at how the dollar is doing against foreign curreny, its plumetting.

At the current spending rates if Bush is re-elected by the end of his term the deficit will be approaching 20% of GDP. Argentina was at 15% when they had that near economic collapse until we bailed them out a year or 2 ago. Who will bail us out?

All of this and when Bush took office he had a SURPLUS. The budget wasn't just balanced, we were paying down the debt. We have been launched into a horrendous downward spiral that has too stop.

Where is John McCain when you need him?

[RandomNY]

First off 9/11 happened and sent a shockwave through the economy to the tune of 100's of Billions of dollars..

With getting homeland security up and running and pumping up the military that the CLINTONS stripped naked. THERE IS NO TAX ON WEALTH!!! If you after taxes paid are worth 100 dollars you don't pay anymore tax on that money. If it's stock (let say) and you sell that stock you then pay capital gains tax at a rate that was 20%. BUSH lowered that to 15% and it will drop to 10%. He also got rid of DOUBLE TAXATION on dividends. The dividend money was taxed when the corporation made the profit. What was happening was if a company you owned paid our dividend, you were getting taxed after that money was already taxed.

With the ending of that tax MICROSOFT, for the first time ever, paid a dividend actually paid out 2 dividends. Which sent BILLIONS into the economy for people spend and use to build their businesses or start new ones or pump up the 401ks of everyone. Over 60% of American's have some vested interest in the STOCK MARKET either through owning stock themselves or 401k's or IRA's. THAT HELPED EVERYONE.

Let me throw a few statistics at you. 2% of the workforce pays 50% of the total TAX burden going to Washington. That is the 2% of the richest American's. Raise that 2% to 50% of the workforce and you now have paid over 96% of the total tax burden going to Washington. (THE 50% tax level is anyone making $27k a year and up)

So that shows that 50% of the workforce is paying under 4% of the 2.2 Trillion dollar tax burden from Washington.

SO that why so called "TAX BREAKS FOR THE RICH" work. To liberals anyone paying taxes is rich. The recession started at the end of the CLINTON ADMINSTRATION because of BILLY's boys tax increases.

The GDP grew at 8% the largest growth in 20% because businesses had more money to spend and expand and hire more people. 9/11 was estimated to be the cause of almost 2 million jobs lost (that is the SHOCKWAVE) I was talking about. Unemployment is now under 6% and continuing to drop.

The GOV't is not in a position to make a profit at all the only way for the GOV't to make more tax revenue is to make sure more people go to work.
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Ok Hmm let's see GETTING SADDAM AND SAVING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE FROM A TYRANICAL dictator was a bad thing? When now hmm they have FREE SPEECH and are setting up a democracy? WOW that is bad.. Hmm the last administration bombed the shit out of KOSOVO and SADDAM and no one said shit.
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The Medicare spending is ridiculous.. Well since 60% of the total budget is a fucking handout.. Get rid of the trillions we spend on WELFARE!!!!

The budget deficit is estimated to be gone in 9 years by economist's, At least now we won't be having a phony BALLOON economy like CLINTON was lucky to have. Most of those INTERNET companies never made a dime in profit. Yahoo was at $300 a share of stock and didn't make 5 cents profit. Anyone who took a basic economics course in high school should have known something was wrong and everything will crash.
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Special dealings with companies? Like Howie Dean giving TAX BREAKS for companies to move to Vermont and put people to work?
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When are you LIBERALS going to watch the actually news?

BUSH SAID WE Can't LET SADDAM BECOME A IMINENT THREAT in this time after 9/11. Once he becomes a THREAT, it's over. Let's rehash the news. Our Intel (that Clinton USED) The British intelligence service, THE FRENCH AND THE GERMANS, along with the ISREALIES and the RUSSIANS all these intelligence services have proof that SADDAM had WMD, even the SHITHEADS at the UN(I'll talk about the UN later) said he had this stuff.. Colin Powell's trip to the UN in Feb. was about the INTEL THAT THE F'n UN had.

I guess bombs with a "D" on them are okay but bombs with a "R" on them are bad?
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Hmm let's talk about other so called BUSH failures in Foreign Policy..

Yesterday it was announced that LIBYA will get rid of all WMD programs, Moammar Gadhafi seeing that BUSH will use the military to make the world safer came groveling to BUSH AND BLAIR( I know to you guys these 2 are the real TERRORISTS) well Moammar Gadhafi agreed to get rid of all WMD programs and weapons already produced.. International inspections are going into Libya, These talks were quiet for 9 months.. Hmmm what happened 9 months ago the scared the shit of Moammar Gadhafi… WE got one of his boys and liberated his people. Funny how going into the middle of a TERRORIST Beehive and setting up an AMERICAN military post scares the shit out of other regimes that show no democracy to their people.

SAUDIA ARBIA is beginning to have democratic elections and Iran is on it's way, the youth of IRAN want we have here in the WEST.. things like FREE SPEECH and Freedom to rule themselves and other freedoms you LIBERALS keep screaming BUSH is taking away like some F'n talking point from TERRY MCAULLIF..
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Dean will lose in a landslide. he can scream all he wants. I'll give you a little note you can pass to DR.DEAN. Telling people who got a tax break(I got 10% of my tax bill back) even at the 30,000 a year I make( you know I'm rich) telling people you are going to take that money away... WILL NOT GET YOU ELECTED!!!!!!
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If Bush's father never said' NO NEW TAXES" Clinton would never have gotten elected. Clinton raised taxes close to 10%. Just go to the IRS's website and look up TAX RATES.

Bush's father raised taxes like 3% and it bit him in the ass.

[Sinn Fein]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

That was quite possibly the greatest post I have ever seen in this forum. Nicely done.

[Jolie]

Originally posted by RandomNY

Dean will lose in a landslide. he can sceam all he wants. I'll give you a little note you can pass to DR.DEAN. Telling people who got a tax break(I got 10% of my tax bill back) even at the 30,000 a year I make( you know I'm rich) telling people you are going to take that money away... WILL NOT GET YOU ELECTED!!!!!!


As someone who apparently got an assload more back because of the tax cuts (I make lots and lots more than 30K), I can tell you I, for one, am still voting for Dean.


ps OH and just a small pet peeve of mine... proper grammar and spelling will make your posts sound a lot more informed.


<M.E.:Complaining about it to prove your point is one of mine.>

[Darkstar]

Be warned, I love political and economic debates. Also, I don't take things personally. The different view points are what make it interesting.

Sinn, I would agree with you if it was based on fact, but too much of it is not.

Also, let me reiterate that I did not say I was supporting Dean. I was pointing out that I do not feel Bush is a good president. I did however point out some facts about Dean that most people don't realize.

Originally posted by RandomNY
First off 9/11 happened and sent a shockwave through the economy to the tune of 100's of Billions of dollars..

With getting homeland security up and running and pumping up the military that the CLINTONS stripped naked. THERE IS NO TAX ON WEALTH!!! If you after taxes paid are worth 100 dollars you don't pay anymore tax on that money. If it's stock (let say) and you sell that stock you then pay capital gains tax at a rate that was 20%. BUSH lowered that to 15% and it will drop to 10%. He also got rid of DOUBLE TAXATION on dividends. The dividend money was taxed when the corporation made the profit. What was happening was if a company you owned paid our dividend, you were getting taxed after that money was already taxed.

There is a tax on wealth. The inheritence tax is an example, as is the tax on dividends. You are making money from money you already have, that is making money from your wealth, not your labor. Money made from labor is called wages, hence our wage taxes.

By cutting the capital gains tax Bush is having an amazing affect. It cuts billions of dollars out of our tax base. As does raising the inheritence tax exemption to $1 million.

As for the dividend tax, yes the corporation did pay tax on that. That money was then paid to you which you received as income so it should be taxed. More money out of the tax base. Saying that they should not tax that is like saying that you should not be taxed for winning the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes because PCH already paid tax on that. The money changed hands and should be taxed accordingly.

Oh, you are 100% correct that we had a huge increase in spending due to 9/11. Also, 100% correct that Clinton stripped the military to the bare bones. It was awful how that was done. Clinton deployed more troops to more places than any other president in peace time, while cutting the budget for that military. We were in a very dangerous place. Bush has done an EXCELLENT job of working to shore up the military.

With the ending of that tax MICROSOFT, for the first time ever, paid a dividend actually paid out 2 dividends. Which sent BILLIONS into the economy for people spend and use to build their businesses or start new ones or pump up the 401ks of everyone. Over 60% of American's have some vested interest in the STOCK MARKET either through owning stock themselves or 401k's or IRA's. THAT HELPED EVERYONE.

Unfortunately, the reasoning for the Microsoft dividened is 100% false. Microsoft did not pay a dividend because of the elimination of the dividend tax. The Microsoft dividend and the restructuring of employee stock options were in the works before the dividend tax elimination was on the table. The dividend came about because the largest software company in the world that was 25 years old had never paid a dividend despite having $48 billion in cash reserves and doing $28 billion in annual revenues. Investors were beginning to dump the stock in the lean times, dropping the stock price. Microsoft was getting killed by this. The stock had lost 35% or so of its value. To recover this they did 3 things. The first was they split the stock. The lower price of $22 at the time of the split allowed lower level investors to get in with the company. The announced the payment of the dividend. Stock price went up $4 in a short time because people started buying to get in now that they were paying out. The third was to give something back to the employees. MS started losing good employees because they were woo'd to Redmond with average salaries, but good stock options. The problem is the stock price dropped well below many employess option prices. They were worthless. Now MS converted those to real stock and is giving shares not options to employees. Employee retention has increase accordingly. Not only that, but moral is up as they have shares that are worth something AND they are getting what will most likely be an annual dividend.

Let me throw a few statistics at you. 2% of the workforce pays 50% of the total TAX burden going to Washington. That is the 2% of the richest American's. Raise that 2% to 50% of the workforce and you now have paid over 96% of the total tax burden going to Washington. (THE 50% tax level is anyone making $27k a year and up)

So that shows that 50% of the workforce is paying under 4% of the 2.2 Trillion dollar tax burden from Washington.

SO that why so called "TAX BREAKS FOR THE RICH" work. To liberals anyone paying taxes is rich. The recession started at the end of the CLINTON ADMINSTRATION because of BILLY's boys tax increases.

The recession started because investors were dumping money into companies that in some cases didn't even have a product. By doing so and buying their stocks they were able to go out and buy capital and employ workers at artificially high salaries. Once investors started to realized they were not going to see a return on this money they pulled out. That was follewed by the IPO money drying out as the companies still weren't making any money. Once this happened it destroyed the economy. They laid off workers taking money out of the economy. They stopped buying capital which caused other companies, especially telcos and high tech equipment makers, to stop making money so they laid off workers and the ripple effect began.

How old were you during the Reagan administration? Bush is using the same policies as Reagan. The will have a limited short-term affect, but they can't sustain the economy. Reagan's poor economics, combined with "read my lips" as Jolie stated is why Papa Bush was not re-elected. Tax cuts for the rich do not work. Someone that makes $5 million a year now not paying an extra $50,000 in tax does not increase their spending. They hoard that money away and pass it on to their kids where it is rarely spent of taxed as well. This is the same for the person making $250,000 a year. The extra $5000 is not spent, but usually passed on.

The GDP grew at 8% the largest growth in 20% because businesses had more money to spend and expand and hire more people. 9/11 was estimated to be the cause of almost 2 million jobs lost (that is the SHOCKWAVE) I was talking about. Unemployment is now under 6% and continuing to drop.

The GOV't is not in a position to make a profit at all the only way for the GOV't to make more tax revenue is to make sure more people go to work.

The GDP didn't grow because of the tax cuts, despite what the news says. Anyone above a rudementary economics knowledge level knows that for a tax cut to ripple through the economy with anything more than a one time temorary boost takes at least 18 months.

You can thank Alan Greenspan and his smarts economic policies for the boost. The best thing Papa Bush, Clinton, and W have done was to have all kept Greenspan. By keeping interest rates at low levels he has allowed business to invest in itself which is allowing them to bring in the staff to support their new business ventures or improvements.

These interest rates were then passed on to consumers. The $400 check I got in July is not the reason I bought 2 new cars in the last 4 months. Interest rates at their lowest levels in 40 years is. Combine those with the incentives new car manufacturers were giving and you are set for a boost at the end of the model year. Also, interest rates were hinting at increasing and did slightly. This cause another boost due to the housing market. Many felt that the rates were about to climb and jumped into the market while they still could.

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Ok Hmm let's see GETTING SADDAM AND SAVING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE FROM A TYRANICAL dictator was a bad thing? When now hmm they have FREE SPEECH and are setting up a democracy? WOW that is bad.. Hmm the last administration bombed the shit out of KOSOVO and SADDAM and no one said shit.

Actually, what I said was that if Bush had said that is why we were going in it would have been justified. He did not. He said WMD and link to terrorism. The weapons have not been found. The link to Bin Laden is now believed not to existed. The best part of this is that W's father stated in his book that we should not go into Iraq because while Saddam in a nut, he does not have the WMD nor the desire to attack the U.S. He is not a threat to us and should be left there because whomever succeeds him could be much more unstable. With Saddam, he was now boxed in and could do nothing outside of his country and we knew what he would do in different situations.
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The Medicare spending is ridiculous.. Well since 60% of the total budget is a fucking handout.. Get rid of the trillions we spend on WELFARE!!!!

Medicare spending is out of control. The prescription drug plan that Bush just passed increases that spending, prevents the federal government from negotiating lower drug prices, prevents seniors from importing cheaper drugs from Canada, and will increase insurance and drug company profits by an estimated 20%. All while increasing the deficit.

The budget deficit is estimated to be gone in 9 years by economist's, At least now we won't be having a phony BALLOON economy like CLINTON was lucky to have. Most of those INTERNET companies never made a dime in profit. Yahoo was at $300 a share of stock and didn't make 5 cents profit. Anyone who took a basic economics course in high school should have known something was wrong and everything will crash.

I was an Economics Major at a good college and did quite well actually. So let us talk about Economics. LESS TAXES+MORE SPENDING=DEFICIT, this is Math, not even High School Econ.

It was a bloated economy, everyone knew it and road it for all that it was worth. The numbers that you state of the deficit being gone in 9 years are from 2000 when the economy hadn't quite plumeted yet. With taxes at that level and spending at that level, with employment and income at 2000 levels the deficit would be gone by 2010. That number has been revised. At current levels the deficit will continue to increase and is expected to be 20% of GDP by that same timeframe. This will of course will be revised as the economy changes.
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Special dealings with companies? Like Howie Dean giving TAX BREAKS for companies to move to Vermont and put people to work?

OK, this doesn't even make sense. Because he helped bring jobs to the state it is his fault that they then had to lay people off? Because I am employed it is my fault that John Doe doesn't have a job as I am taking the one he could have.

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When are you LIBERALS going to watch the actually news?

They do. The problem is that few people go to other sources outside of mainstream media. Mainstream media only shows you snippets of information and parts of facts. If you are basing you knowlege on things like the NBC Nightly News you will be incredibly uninformed.

BUSH SAID WE Can't LET SADDAM BECOME A IMINENT THREAT in this time after 9/11. Once he becomes a THREAT, it's over. Let's rehash the news. Our Intel (that Clinton USED) The British intelligence service, THE FRENCH AND THE GERMANS, along with the ISREALIES and the RUSSIANS all these intelligence services have proof that SADDAM had WMD, even the SHITHEADS at the UN(I'll talk about the UN later) said he had this stuff.. Colin Powell's trip to the UN in Feb. was about the INTEL THAT THE F'n UN had.

I guess bombs with a "D" on them are okay but bombs with a "R" on them are bad?

No, anyone that would have launched this attack would have been wrong. Not only that but the French and Germans and many others had this intel and did not feel that there was sufficient enough evidence to invade. So far, they have been right.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad Saddam was caught and he should be put to death. But we did not have eveidence to support the reason for our invasion.

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Hmm let's talk about other so called BUSH failures in Foreign Policy..

Yesterday it was announced that LIBYA will get rid of all WMD programs, Moammar Gadhafi seeing that BUSH will use the military to make the world safer came groveling to BUSH AND BLAIR( I know to you guys these 2 are the real TERRORISTS) well Moammar Gadhafi agreed to get rid of all WMD programs and weapons already produced.. International inspections are going into Libya, These talks were quiet for 9 months.. Hmmm what happened 9 months ago the scared the shit of Moammar Gadhafi… WE got one of his boys and liberated his people. Funny how going into the middle of a TERRORIST Beehive and setting up an AMERICAN military post scares the shit out of other regimes that show no democracy to their people.

You are absolutly correct and this has been an amazing side effect of the Iraq invasion. But, it was just that a side affect. It was not due to a policy by Bush or any direct action, Bush got lucky that someone viewed his actions in this way. Gadhafi is a nut.

SAUDIA ARBIA is beginning to have democratic elections and Iran is on it's way, the youth of IRAN want we have here in the WEST.. things like FREE SPEECH and Freedom to rule themselves and other freedoms you LIBERALS keep screaming BUSH is taking away like some F'n talking point from TERRY MCAULLIF..

This has nothing to do with Bush. More and more Suadi's and Iranians are attending college in the US and then bringing that way of life back with them. To say that this was caused by Bush in the last 3 years is absurd. It has something that has been building for a long time and must be credited to the American way of life and not a single man.

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Dean will lose in a landslide. he can scream all he wants. I'll give you a little note you can pass to DR.DEAN. Telling people who got a tax break(I got 10% of my tax bill back) even at the 30,000 a year I make( you know I'm rich) telling people you are going to take that money away... WILL NOT GET YOU ELECTED!!!!!!

You are probably correct. He will most likely lose by a landslide unless the economy heads south again or if we are still in Iraq with Americans being killed every day.

You are incorrect in that Dean is going to outright revoke the tax break. He wants to restructure it. You are not going to save 10% on your tax bill as the rate only went down 2.5% so I am not sure where the 10% comes from. Unless you are talking about raising the 27% bracket (now 25% bracket) income level up by $3000, but if you make $30,000 a year it didn't change your status.

The tax cuts primarily have an affect on those making over $100,000 a year. Dean would like to restructure those so that middle America, those in the $30000-90,000 range will see some real benefit. I saw a $400 prebate for my child and $5 more in my paycheck. Note it was a prebate, on your 2003 taxes you will only get a $600 credit, not the advertised $1000 as they have already paid $400 which the US is now paying interest on for giving it to you. The tax cuts have had so little affect on my income that it has not changed my spending habits so it is not helping the economy.

It primarily helps those making dividends from stocks or those receiving and inheritence.

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If Bush's father never said' NO NEW TAXES" Clinton would never have gotten elected. Clinton raised taxes close to 10%. Just go to the IRS's website and look up TAX RATES.

Bush's father raised taxes like 3% and it bit him in the ass.

Correct, if he hadn't said that we would have won. I looked up the tax rates, how did you come up with 10%?

The problem in my eyes is simple. The Republicans tell you they are helping the middle class with their actions when they are only helping the rich.

The Democrats tell you they want to help the poor and saddle this aid on the backs of the middle class.

Neither way is better than the other, they both suck.

[fcuknu]

I would read the above post... but, phew... neways... Bush will win handily. 2008 is the question, will the village vote hillary in.. because ya know... it takes a... oh nevermind

[Darkstar]

Don't get me started on Hillary " I will do whatever makes me more powerful" Clinton.

I am in awe that the people of NY elected her when she didn't even live in the state until just before the election.

[Stinkysteve]

Originally posted by Darkstar
Don't get me started on Hillary " I will do whatever makes me more powerful" Clinton.

I am in awe that the people of NY elected her when she didn't even live in the state until just before the election.

I just have two words to say about that, Bobby Kennedy.

[Darkstar]

Little to young to remember that. :)

Did some research, I didn't realize that he was elected in NY, I always assumed it was MA.

Interesting.....

[Jolie]

Originally posted by Darkstar
Don't get me started on Hillary " I will do whatever makes me more powerful" Clinton.

I am in awe that the people of NY elected her when she didn't even live in the state until just before the election.

Thats almost as bad as electing Ahnold as governor just because hes a movie star and therefore a known name.

[Sinn Fein]

Actually, it's worse.

1) Arnold is a long-time resident of California, not a carpetbagger.
2) Arnold is not using his office as a stepping stone.

Just because she climbed on Bill's rod once-upon-a-time, doesn't make her qualified for the position. Maybe her legal background and education does. But, the majority of the Democratic sheep didn't vote for her based on that, now did they?

[Darkstar]

I'm with you on this one Sinn.

Arnold's fame got him elected, but you can't argue he doesn't care about the state.

He's interesting in that he is a Republican with Kennedy tendencies. He is a social liberal and a fiscal conservative.

As for the people electing Hillary, BAAAAAAAAA

At least she got the gankles to lead a heard.

[Sinn Fein]

I think Arnold is doing a bang-up job so far. I'm going to continue to watch him. Even if he ends up totally going down the crapper, he'll still probably do better than Jesse Ventura.

[gasbuddah]

as I see it:
fact: the only way a dem will win the election is if they personally catch osama.

fact: if wheelchair fred were against hillary, i'd vote for the gimp!

fact: reagan ran, in california, with name recognition, and he did a fine job.