Electronic National ID Card

[rick0926]

This shit is scary. Next stop radio chips implanted into our hands...
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5702505.html?tag=nl.e589



Last-minute attempts by online activists to halt an electronic ID card failed Tuesday when the U.S. Senate unanimously voted to impose a sweeping set of identification requirements on Americans. The so-called Real ID Act (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-5697111.html?tag=nl) now heads to President Bush, who is expected to sign the bill into law this month. Its backers, including the Bush administration, say it's needed to stop illegal immigrants from obtaining drivers' licenses.

If the act's (http://dw.com.com/redir?destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fthomas.loc.gov%2Fcgi-bin%2Fbdquery%2Fz%3Fd109%3Ah.r.01268%3A&siteId=22&oId=2100-1009-5702505&ontId=1009&lop=nl.ex) mandates take effect in May 2008, as expected, Americans will be required to obtain federally approved ID cards (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-5573414.html?tag=nl) with "machine readable technology" that abides by Department of Homeland Security specifications. Anyone without such an ID card will be effectively prohibited from traveling by air or Amtrak, opening a bank account, or entering federal buildings.

After the Real ID Act's sponsors glued it to an Iraq military spending bill, final passage was all but guaranteed. Yet that didn't stop a dedicated cadre of privacy activists from trying to raise the alarm (http://dw.com.com/redir?destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politechbot.com%2F2 005%2F05%2F06%2Fhow-to-punish%2F&siteId=22&oId=2100-1009-5702505&ontId=1009&lop=nl.ex) in the last few days.

UnRealID.com (http://dw.com.com/redir?destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unrealid.com%2F&siteId=22&oId=2100-1009-5702505&ontId=1009&lop=nl.ex), which calls the legislation a "national ID card," says that more than 10,800 people filled out its online petition to senators.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation hastily created (http://dw.com.com/redir?destUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure.eff.org%2Fsite% 2FAdvocacy%3FJServSessionIdr003%3Dlcc9pdhnh1.app6a %26page%3DUserAction%26cmd%3Ddisplay%26id%3D119&siteId=22&oId=2100-1009-5702505&ontId=1009&lop=nl.ex) a "Stop The Real ID Act!" campaign last week, and the ACLU vote of 261-161, and some senators had condemned it. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., warned (http://dw.com.com/redir?destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.epic.org%2Fprivacy% 2Fid-cards%2Fdurbin_senate_4_20_05.html&siteId=22&oId=2100-1009-5702505&ontId=1009&lop=nl.ex) last month that the Real ID Act creates "de facto national ID cards" and the National Immigration Law Center said (http://dw.com.com/redir?destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nilc.org%2Fimmspbs% 2FDLs%2Freal_id_Q%26A_0405.pdf&siteId=22&oId=2100-1009-5702505&ontId=1009&lop=nl.ex) it will make it harder even for legal immigrants and citizens to get drivers' licenses.

Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner, a Wisconsin Republican and Real ID Act sponsor, applauded the Senate vote on Tuesday. "The Real ID is vital to preventing foreign terrorists from hiding in plain sight while conducting their operations and planning attacks," Sensenbrenner said. "By targeting terrorist travel, the Real ID will assist in our war-on-terror efforts to disrupt terrorist operations and help secure our borders."

[agentcg]

I've talked about this on a different message board before, besides the fucking hastle of getting a fucking card, I dont think its that big of a deal.

[d0uche_n0zzle]

Mark of the Beast...

Lock'n'load, two to the chest and one to the head.

[mainliner]

i know im gonna be fucked half my papers are under one first name half under a second, my father thought it would be cute to americanize my name on some things and not others when i was born

[agentcg]

Mark of the Beast...

Lock'n'load, two to the chest and one to the head.

What does that mean?

[Mommadeez4u]

I've talked about this on a different message board before, besides the fucking hastle of getting a fucking card, I dont think its that big of a deal.

I never could believe that Providence had sent a few men into the world, ready booted and spurred to ride, and millions ready saddled and bridled to be ridden. —Richard Rumbold

[shat]

If it'll help get rid of some of the illegals then I'm all for it.

[shat]

But then who's gonna mow my lawn?

Your 12 your old neighbor kid for $10.

[tattered]

please...if that kid gets hurt mowing feedbacks lawn his parents will be suing feedback....and you know.....besides did u even know how use a weed wacker or how to do a professional job at mowing lawns.....

[MilitantRabbit]

But then who's gonna mow my lawn?
The legalized-yet-still-poor Mexicans.

Check Labor Ready in Paterson. A lot there.

[Mommadeez4u]

http://www.unrealid.com/

[agentcg]

I never could believe that Providence had sent a few men into the world, ready booted and spurred to ride, and millions ready saddled and bridled to be ridden. —Richard Rumbold

yeah, go fuck yourself. :icon_wink

[droogsteve]

http://www.unrealid.com/


Wow, nothing like a little hysteria to cloud an issue. :rolleyes:

The Real ID act does NOT call for a new national ID card, despite what the sinister picture on that website shows. It calls for stricter ID standards for state DMVs to issue licenses and non driver IDs, which right now are about as tough to get as a Blockbuster video card. I personally know someone who had his license suspended for having an uninsured accident, and instead of paying several thousand in fines, simply got another valid license with his first and middle names reversed.


Is there something unreasonable about insisting that a person prove who they are before being issued an official government ID?

You might be thinking "Why do we need this law? Can't state DMVs just crack down on fraudulent IDs themselves?" Apparently not:



NY can't deny driver's licenses to illegal immigrants



THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


ALBANY — A state judge on Tuesday ruled the state Department of Motor Vehicles can’t revoke the driver’s licenses of as many as 252,000 illegal immigrants because they haven’t secured Social Security cards.
The DMV “may not use immigration status” to deny licenses, according to the decision by state Supreme Court Justice Karen Smith. “Plaintiffs have faced and will continue to face serious injuries if these practices continue.”

The court said DMV lacks the authority to carry out the practice that could only be enacted by a legislature.

The judge also rejected the state’s “temporary visitor” program begun in 2003 which provided temporary licenses with expiration dates based on a person’s immigration status. The driver’s license would expire even if the immigrant was entitled to an automatic renewal of authorization to remain in the United States.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/308229p-263734c.html

Like it or not, there is already a de facto national ID card: your driver's license. It is required in a multitude of private and government situations. All this bill does is assure that only the people who get them are those who are supposed to have them.

[Mommadeez4u]

It might surprise you, droogsteve, to know that the Government is not my master. the whole premise of National ID is that the government owns the citizen, and must provide the citizenry with identification, beginning with a state-issued birth certificate. In principle, this is just the same as it was during the time of American slavery. Every Negro was presumed a slave unless the government (or his master, actually ex-master) documented that he was a free person. If a freed Negro lost his "papers," then he was automatically considered a slave. If a Negro wanted to assert his natural born freedom, including the right not to carry government papers, his existence could be quite perilous, just as it would be to an American today who refused to carry government papers proving his or her identity. Sorry, that's not my America. I am not a number, I am certainly not submitting to this new form of ID.

[JoeyDVDZ]

It's the end times, just like the bible said. Number of the beast, people. No commerce without the mark.

[PCLoadLetter]

the whole premise of National ID is that the government owns the citizen, and must provide the citizenry with identification, beginning with a state-issued birth certificate.

Do you use this argument whenever you're in a situation where you need to prove your identity? I won't show you my license/SS card/etc., because the government doesn't own me?

In principle, this is just the same as it was during the time of American slavery. Every Negro was presumed a slave unless the government etc., etc., etc...

I'm sure a "negro" of yore would laugh themselves into a hernia reading how you equate having a national ID card to THEIR plight.

[3spades]

yea, those pesky terrorists who were here legally will sure find themselves shit out of luck standing on line a bit longer to get this id

[PCLoadLetter]

Okay, I am still trying to figure out why this is so terrible. You already have to have a SS card (try to get a new job without one)... A state ID like a driver license or non-driver ID... Many of us need work ID's with federal background checks... A passport... Stuff like that.

What is the conspiracy theory about the terrible things that are going to happen with a federal ID card? Please. Help me out... I don't see the downside of simply having another ID card.

[shat]

Sorry, that's not my America. I am not a number, I am certainly not submitting to this new form of ID.

Have fun never leaving your house then.

[droogsteve]

It might surprise you, droogsteve, to know that the Government is not my master. the whole premise of National ID is that the government owns the citizen, and must provide the citizenry with identification, beginning with a state-issued birth certificate. In principle, this is just the same as it was during the time of American slavery. Every Negro was presumed a slave unless the government (or his master, actually ex-master) documented that he was a free person. If a freed Negro lost his "papers," then he was automatically considered a slave. If a Negro wanted to assert his natural born freedom, including the right not to carry government papers, his existence could be quite perilous, just as it would be to an American today who refused to carry government papers proving his or her identity. Sorry, that's not my America. I am not a number, I am certainly not submitting to this new form of ID.


Very stirring speech, however inaccurate. Do you drive, or do you refuse to be a slave of the automakers and big oil as well? Since I assume that you do, I assume that you also have a driver's license. Therefore, it's not a new form of ID. Secondly, no where does it say that you have to carry it. You cannot be stopped and asked for ID for no reason, nor can you be punished for not having one.

Your comparing of stricter DMV standards to what blacks went through during slavery is just insulting. Although I suppose I should be grateful that you didn't work in a reference to the tattoos concentration camp inmates were forced to get by the Nazis.


Rest assured that we're all deeply impressed at what a non conformist rebel you are. Fight the power, little anarchist!!:rolleyes:

[aFan]

Anyone read "The Handmaid's Tale"? For those consipiracy theorists or people who like to laugh at them- that's a good story of how far an ID card can be taken.

[fandango86]

I think they should take this national ID thing a step further. Can they fucking link it up to AC Nielson and IRI and all the other information collecting companies out there so I don't have to fucking carry a god damn shoppers card for every fucking store I go to? I've got 23 of these fucking things in my wallet. I can't even buy a fucking pack of gum at a gas station anymore without one. Jesus! Take all my info, I don't care, but let me just have to use one fucking card to get all my discounts and stuff. Would that be so hard?

[rick0926]

I don't have to fucking carry a god damn shoppers card for every fucking store I go to? I've got 23 of these fucking things in my wallet. I can't even buy a fucking pack of gum at a gas station anymore without one. Jesus! Take all my info, I don't care, but let me just have to use one fucking card to get all my discounts and stuff. Would that be so hard?

No it is not that hard. But like everything else they start slow. First the national ID with RFID chips in them. Then, maybe your suggestion for the convenience. And while they are at it, link it to your debit cards/credit cards. Next, oh you could lose this ID card, why not just implant the damn chip in your hand. It is not that far fetched, they already have these chips in dogs. That is the mark of the beast, that is how I see it...

[PCLoadLetter]

I think someone needs to add another layer of foil in their hat and around their ankles... :icon_mrgr

[THE FEZ MAN]

gattaca, it is comming.

[Mommadeez4u]

Very stirring speech, however inaccurate. Do you drive, or do you refuse to be a slave of the automakers and big oil as well?

Entering into a mutually beneficial, mutually agreeable exchange of goods & services with an automobile manufacturer and gasoline companies does not make me a 'slave' to them. The State enslaves me, however, by taking through threat of force almost half of what I earn and gives the fruits of my labor to others It deems worthy.

Since I assume that you do, I assume that you also have a driver's license.

I used to, yes. Several years ago I had an epiphany which led me to letting my dl expire. You know, I got my high school diploma in 1984. In the ensuing 20-odd years, no one has ever asked to see it. I certainly have never been asked to send in money to get my high school diploma "renewed," or to report my new residential address so that could be permanently engraved on my "new, valid" high school diploma, or to go on and pose for a "new diploma photo." The one I got in 1984 is still considered good. The year before I got my high school diploma, I got a driver's license. Why isn't that still good? When I change my address or grow a mustache or shave it off, does that alter my ability to remember the shape of a stop sign or how to parallel park? Of course not. What passes for a "driver's license" today is just a way to squeeze more money out of us to keep a huge police-state tracking bureaucracy at work -- paying for our own bondage through an internal passport that allows the officer's onboard computer to access our Social Security number and through it all the details of our lives, the very kind of "travel papers" that American audiences used to boo the Gestapo men for demanding of railway passengers in the old movies set in Nazi Germany or occupied France.

Therefore, it's not a new form of ID.

If it's not a new form of ID, why the fuck are we doing this, and why are you so eagerly embracing it?

Secondly, no where does it say that you have to carry it.

For now.

You cannot be stopped and asked for ID for no reason, nor can you be punished for not having one.

You are obviously not familair with the recent Supreme Court decision in re Dudley Hiibel (http://www.papersplease.org/hiibel/).

Your comparing of stricter DMV standards to what blacks went through during slavery is just insulting.

1. argumentum ad hominem, please try harder to defend your position without attacking me.

2. I was pointing out the very real origins of today's police state.

Although I suppose I should be grateful that you didn't work in a reference to the tattoos concentration camp inmates were forced to get by the Nazis.

Oh look, someone introduced Nazis into the debate.

Rest assured that we're all deeply impressed at what a non conformist rebel you are. Fight the power, little anarchist!!:rolleyes:

Yeah, whatever, Sport. 'Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.'

[PCLoadLetter]

1. argumentum ad hominem, please try harder to defend your position without attacking me

Nice use of latin, however misapplied. Referring to your "slavery" comment as insulting (which it is) is hardly him attacking you.

I've got me some latin, too...

"We don't need to carry this card on our person... FOR NOW..."... post hoc ergo propter hoc.

How about your assertion "I was awarded a high school diploma and it doesn't need to be renewed, why does my driver's licence need to be renewed?" Classic case of a false analogy. One is a certificate of completion of a course of academic study. The other is an operator license. These items are notably dissimilar and don't bear comparison.

"Police State", "Tracking bureaucracy", "The State", "enslavement", referring to the government as "It" (capitalized), "bondage", referring to "chains" that shackle you in the USA, etc.... Using exaggerated language and comparing your plight to the American post-slavery black man because you might need a national ID card to get on an airplane? Style over Substance, perhaps? Or is it just use of Prejudicial Language?

Overall, your argument(s) are almost all Slippery Slope arguments with no concrete conclusion. Your own personal conclusion is that you won't submit to the ID card, which is fine for you I guess, as long as you never want to go anywhere.

Do I understand that you don't have a driver's license? Or is that in the past?

As an aside, regardless of the national ID thing, do you really think you're not a number? I believe you were probably a number from the moment you popped out of the womb, like it or not. The government, state or otherwise, can and will find out what you're up to whether you like it or not, regardless of your possession or non-possession of one of these cards.

[d0uche_n0zzle]

Does the Real ID act contain a Constitution-busting Trojan horse? (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050509-4886.html?60828&91362)

An interesting article on some of the implications of this 'law'.

[droogsteve]

PCLoadLetter addressed your post very nicely, but I'll add my two cents anyway.

Entering into a mutually beneficial, mutually agreeable exchange of goods & services with an automobile manufacturer and gasoline companies does not make me a 'slave' to them. The State enslaves me, however, by taking through threat of force almost half of what I earn and gives the fruits of my labor to others It deems worthy.

What? You consent to pay taxes to the wicked government? Does the IRS send thugs to physically take the money from your pockets? No? So you pay taxes to avoid the penalty, yet refuse to carry the evil government ID? So it's simply a matter of degree then. You'll bow down and lick the government boot to avoid a severe penalty but not a minor one. I see. So the rest of us are cheap whores, but you're a higher priced whore. Seems like a minor distinction to me, but hey, if it makes you feel better, go right ahead.



I used to, yes. Several years ago I had an epiphany which led me to letting my dl expire. You know, I got my high school diploma in 1984. In the ensuing 20-odd years, no one has ever asked to see it. I certainly have never been asked to send in money to get my high school diploma "renewed," or to report my new residential address so that could be permanently engraved on my "new, valid" high school diploma, or to go on and pose for a "new diploma photo." The one I got in 1984 is still considered good. The year before I got my high school diploma, I got a driver's license. Why isn't that still good? When I change my address or grow a mustache or shave it off, does that alter my ability to remember the shape of a stop sign or how to parallel park? Of course not. What passes for a "driver's license" today is just a way to squeeze more money out of us to keep a huge police-state tracking bureaucracy at work -- paying for our own bondage through an internal passport that allows the officer's onboard computer to access our Social Security number and through it all the details of our lives, the very kind of "travel papers" that American audiences used to boo the Gestapo men for demanding of railway passengers in the old movies set in Nazi Germany or occupied France.

PCLoadLetter already addressed this quite well. Anything I might add would be superfluous

If it's not a new form of ID, why the fuck are we doing this, and why are you so eagerly embracing it?

To ensure that only people that are entitled to have vaild American ID will have it.

For now.

Slippery slope fallacy. Let's keep the debate in the present, shall we?



You are obviously not familair with the recent Supreme Court decision in re Dudley Hiibel (http://www.papersplease.org/hiibel/).

Actually, I'm quite familiar with it. He was NOT stopped for no reason. The police had received a call describing Hiibel's truck and location and saying that a couple were apparently having a fight inside. They had documented reasonable suspicion that a violent crime had occured and every right to ask him for identification.



1. argumentum ad hominem, please try harder to defend your position without attacking me.

I said that your ARGUMENT was insulting, therefore it was not an ad hominem attack.

2. I was pointing out the very real origins of today's police state.

How so? Are you claiming that the police state began with slavery? If it did, were white citizens of the time slaves too? When slavery ended, wouldn't that end the police state as well?

Of course not. Slavery and police states are two separate matters entirely. The slavery reference was a poor attempt to win an argument by replacing facts, which were lacking, with emotion: the visceral revulsion that civilized people feel for slavery.



Oh look, someone introduced Nazis into the debate.
I had done so jokingly. To make it even more amusing, you seem to have completely missed the irony by engaging in the exact sort of hysterical hyperbole that I was mocking.

the very kind of "travel papers" that American audiences used to boo the Gestapo men for demanding of railway passengers in the old movies set in Nazi Germany or occupied France



Yeah, whatever, Sport. 'Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.'

Anything you say, Sacco. Or are you Vanzetti? And try not to feel like a hypocrite next time you send your 1040EZ to your masters.

[kloraferm]

But then who's gonna mow my lawn?
Just get a skinny blonde golf caddy

[abudabit]

i know im gonna be fucked half my papers are under one first name half under a second, my father thought it would be cute to americanize my name on some things and not others when i was born

Same with me. My dad changed our last name 4 times because he is super into geneology. Everytime he changed last names he put the previous last name into my middle name, so now I have 4 middle names.

My Initials are R.P.A.S.S.P. Ponderous, fucking ponderous. Dealing with the IRS was such a fucking hassle until I got that shit fixed.