Bush orders border patrol not to arrest illegals

[turdfrgsn]

um, ok so let's see, to prevent the minutemen from patrolling the border more, which they're doing because the govt. refuses to, the admin is commanding the border patrol not to arrest any illegals............i feel like lewis black w/my head about to explode

you know what, and i voted for his ass but quite frankly, this refusal to protect our nation's citizens and our national sovereignty is nothing short of treason, which there is absolutely no excuse for, and, imho, a fucking impeachable offense

there, i said it and i'm not taking it back

http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050513-122032-5055r

Border Patrol told to stand down in Arizona
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published May 13, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned.
More than a dozen agents, all of whom asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, said orders relayed by Border Patrol supervisors at the Naco, Ariz., station made it clear that arrests were "not to go up" along the 23-mile section of border that the volunteers monitored to protest illegal immigration.
"It was clear to everyone here what was being said and why," said one veteran agent. "The apprehensions were not to increase after the Minuteman volunteers left. It was as simple as that."
Another agent said the Naco supervisors "were clear in their intention" to keep new arrests to an "absolute minimum" to offset the effect of the Minuteman vigil, adding that patrols along the border have been severely limited.
Border Patrol Chief David V. Aguilar at the agency's Washington headquarters called the accusations "outright wrong," saying that supervisors at the Naco station had not blocked agents from making arrests and that the station's 350 agents were being "supported in carrying out" their duties.
"Border Patrol agents are the front line of defense against terrorism," Chief Aguilar said, adding that the 11,000 agents nationwide are "meeting that challenge, head-on ... as daunting a task as that may sound."
The chief -- a former head of the agency's Tucson sector, which includes the Naco station -- said that with the world watching the Arizona border because of the Minuteman Project, agents in Naco "demonstrated flexibility and resilience in carrying out their critical homeland security duties and responsibilities."
But Rep. Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican, yesterday said "credible sources" within the Border Patrol also had told him of the decision by Naco supervisors to keep new arrests to a minimum, saying he was angry but not surprised.
"It's like telling a cop to stand by and watch burglars loot a store but don't arrest any of them," he said. "This is another example of decisions being made at the highest levels of the Border Patrol that are hurting morale and helping to rot the agency from within.
"I worry about our efforts in Congress to increase the number of agents," he said. "Based on these kinds of orders, we could spend the equivalent of the national debt and never have secure borders."
Mr. Tancredo, chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, blamed the Bush administration for setting an immigration enforcement tone that suggests to those enforcing the law that he is not serious about secure borders.
"We need to get the president to come to grips with the seriousness of the problem," he said. "I know he doesn't like to utter the words, 'I was wrong,' but if we have another incident like September 11 by people who came through our borders without permission, I hope he doesn't have to say 'I'm sorry.' "
During the Minuteman vigil, Border Patrol supervisors in Arizona discounted their efforts, saying a drop in apprehensions during their protest was because of the Mexican government's deployment of military and police south of the targeted area and a new federal program known as the Arizona Border Control Initiative that brought manpower increases to the state.
The Naco supervisors blamed the volunteers for unnecessarily tripping sensors, disturbing draglines and interfering with the normal operations of the agents. They said that their impact on illegals was "negligible" and that civilians should leave immigration enforcement "to the professionals."
Several field agents credited the volunteers with cutting the flow of illegal aliens in the targeted Naco area, saying the number of apprehended illegals dropped from an average of 500 a day to less than 15 a day.
More than 850 volunteers, in a protest of the lax immigration enforcement policies of the White House and Congress, sought to reduce the flow of illegal aliens along a popular immigration corridor on the Arizona-Mexico border near Naco by reporting illegals to the Border Patrol as they crossed into the United States.
Their goal was to show that increased manpower on the border would effectively deter illegal immigration. Organizers said the protest resulted in Border Patrol arrests of 349 illegal aliens.
Area residents, in a half-page ad in the Sunday edition of the Sierra Vista Herald, told the volunteers: "Thanks for doing what our government won't -- close the border to illegal aliens. It was the quietest month we've had in many years ... You made us feel safe because the border was closed."

[NikDaSchwugie]

More illegals = more cheap workers for the corporations.

If you voted for Bush because you thought he cared about the average American, you deserve what you're getting now.

[DoughBoy]

More Illegals = more porous = more people able to get into this country to wage 'war'

[Smoke]

We're being invaded and instead of resisting we're sitting idle while the Southwest is "Reconquisted" by Mexico. (http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Reconquista_-Mexico_s_Dre/the__reconquista_-mexico_s_dre.html)

"Some Mexicans and Mexican-Americans want to see California, New Mexico and other parts of the United States given to Mexico. They call it the “reconquista,” Spanish for “reconquest,” and they view the millions of Mexican illegal aliens entering this country as their army of invaders to achieve that takeover."

They will win it back or be slaughered en masse the next time there's a major depression.

[turdfrgsn]

If you voted for Bush because you thought he cared about the average American, you deserve what you're getting now.

it would've been worse under kerry, but both parties are useless on this issue and nothing's going to get done until saheeb sneaks over across the arizona border and detonates a small grade nuke in disneyland

and if the mexicans want california, i say let them have it, the whole state is nothing but a drag on our economy and our culture

we're going to see a secession movement of some kind come to fruition in our lifetimes, mark my words

[d0uche_n0zzle]

we're going to see a secession movement of some kind come to fruition in our lifetimes, mark my words


Two words, John Titor.

[mainliner]

damned goobacks we should all get gay cuz they took ur jabs

[Carvin]

If I, or any of you, lived in that hell hole country you'd be trying your ass off to get here also.

We've got plenty of room for everybody.

[turdfrgsn]

We've got plenty of room for everybody.

that include s. american narco-terrorists who facilitate the entry of islamofacists, who want to murder all of us here in the "big tent," by exploiting our non-existent border policy?

legitimate immigrants aren't the problem, it's the lack of any coherent attempt at enforcing any kind of coherent policy to protect our national security here at home

quite frankly i don't blame them for wanting to come over here, but why not close the borders and start exerting pressure on the banana republics to improve their economic and social conditions to remove the incentive

titor's time travel aside, it truly isn't a matter of if, but when at this point

and today mccain and kennedy intro'd a bill for blanket amnesty :clap: :clap:

gee, there's big disincentive there
/sarcasm

[Smoke]

We've got plenty of room for everybody.
Sure, if we built new cities rather than endlessly expanding ones we already have.

quite frankly i don't blame them for wanting to come over here, but why not close the borders and start exerting pressure on the banana republics to improve their economic and social conditions to remove the incentive

and today mccain and kennedy intro'd a bill for blanket amnesty :clap: :clap:

gee, there's big disincentive there
/sarcasm
The power of the press to say "racist!" about anyone who doesn't follow the groupthink is simply amazing. Just to suggest we should have border patrols is racist, suggesting illegals be returned is racist, etc. Look how much back pedeling Arnold had to do when it was reported the border should closed. (I forget if he said it or what happened there)

Yeah, why would they want to fix things at home when they can come here and get a better education and not have to worry about the problems Mexico has? Plus, they get to be part of a "crusade" to take back "their land" in our Southwest.

I'd want all of the illegals expelled, but we need people for the economy and there's no White country with a growing population to import from. It was a lot easier to assimilate the various European immigrants of the past because there were so many different languages that they had to learn English to get ahead. That's not the case anymore, and it's part of their plan not to integrate.

George Washington made a lot of good decisions, and one of them was not to have the laws printed in German for the German immigrants. We've now reversed that and since then we're becoming more and more divided.

We're gonna get pushed out of our own country just as we had done to the Natives before us. Fight back, have more kids. The next civil war isn't going to be fun.

[Etherfiend]

We're being invaded and instead of resisting we're sitting idle while the Southwest is "Reconquisted" by Mexico. (http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Reconquista_-Mexico_s_Dre/the__reconquista_-mexico_s_dre.html)

"Some Mexicans and Mexican-Americans want to see California, New Mexico and other parts of the United States given to Mexico. They call it the “reconquista,” Spanish for “reconquest,” and they view the millions of Mexican illegal aliens entering this country as their army of invaders to achieve that takeover."

They will win it back or be slaughered en masse the next time there's a major depression.


REMEMBER THE ALAMO MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

but seriously, fuck them, fuck them in their stupid asses.

[turdfrgsn]

Fight back, have more kids. The next civil war isn't going to be fun.

that's right, don't abort those babies.......they make great ammo

err eh whuh-whuh.....

[abudabit]

We've got plenty of room for everybody.

Which still isn't an excuse to not run background checks on every immigrant, or an excuse to allow mules in the country, or an excuse to have the majority of our immigrants come from one region of the world. :action-sm

Now what we need is a fund to build our own wall. The government sure isn't going to do it. I'm sure the ranchers would be down to place it along the edge of thier property.

Or we can start voting with this issue in mind. When the '08 race begins, let all the potential nominees (what ever your party may be) know that you will only vote for them if they stand up against illegal immigration. And then follow through on your actions.

[George W. Bush]

Gimme a break dudes! I love that mexican pussy!

[Smoke]

Now what we need is a fund to build our own wall.
Wouldn't it be something to arrest these illegals and put them to work building it for a 3 month term before expelling them?

How about offering amnesty to those illegals and their spouse if they're willing to join the Army for 4 years (which is the usually term)?

[Smoke]

Gimme a break dudes! I love that mexican pussy!
Once you've had fifteen cleaning ladies, you've had them all. They're almost like Asians, they kinda look alike.

[click]

The reason the Minutemen formed because they were letting everyone through in that area. Did I miss something? Now the BP is busy busting the minutemens balls.

[mascan42]

How about offering amnesty to those illegals and their spouse if they're willing to join the Army for 4 years (which is the usually term)?
I like it . . . like in Gangs of New York, they enlisted them into the Army the second they got off the boats.

[abudabit]

How about we just speed up the visa process and seal the border?

[d0uche_n0zzle]

I prefer the hardcore approach, build a wall and have a dead man's zone in between the wall and border. Offer permits to sportsman that allow them to shoot at anything in the zone.

If the illegals make it through uninjured they get recycled, jokes on them.

[Smoke]

Two words: Automated Turrets.

[Diceman Cometh]

Two words: Automated Turrets.

a wall/fence would be effective too.

[POTUSin08]

Iam all for the military taking over the borders. Border Jumpers are a threat to our national security, on both borders. Someone in an earlier post said something about a kill zone at the border, this is what my policy in 08 will be; The establishment of a border guard and any persons attempting to illegally cross the border are to be shot.

I don't want to hear any liberal bullshit about immigrants just wanting to make a better life for themselves, because that is not the issue. There are legal ways to get into the country and start a new life for yourself, sneaking into the country is just the first step on the path of law breaking. Anyone that crosses the borders illegally is already a criminal and have no respect for our laws.

I am sure you all have heard about the cops that were shot in the back in Denver, the shooter was a border jumper. He had been pulled over a couple of times and they knew he was an illegal, but they could not do anything about it then because Denver is a "sanctuary city". This tragedy could have been avoided if the Denver police were allowed to get rid of this animal when they stopped him on previous occasions.

[abudabit]

Why does everyone feel the need for some reactionary statement? All we need is a cheesy fence with sensors built into it that signal an alert when someone is trying to cut through it, climb it, or dig under it. Much cheaper in the long run then a bunch of men guarding the border, and much more effective.

Currently the fence along the border doesn't even cover 10% of the expanse, and the top of it is facing the wrong direction. Yet anti-border defence people use the precence of the fence as a reason why we don't need to build a real one. It frustrates me to no end.

But there is a growing movement in the border states, including liberal California and New Mexico, to take action. Something is going to be done about this situation. Just remember when '06 comes around to remind Democrats that illegals bust unions and remind Republicans that thier leadership has turned thier backs on border defense. Let your local candidates know that you WILL be voting with illegal immigration in mind.

[Jolie]

Don't worry people. The majority of people who try to enter the US through the Arizona/Mexico border end up dying in the desert. :icon_roll

[Diceman Cometh]

Don't worry people. The majority of people who try to enter the US through the Arizona/Mexico border end up dying in the desert. :icon_roll

Are we supposed to feel bad about that?

[APortablePhone]

but if we have another incident like September 11 by people who came through our borders without permission, I hope he doesn't have to say 'I'm sorry.' "

Yes, it's too bad that the hijackers did come to America legally. If terrorist acts start happening in the kitchens of every resturant in America, you can start to worry. Otherwise people should really stop using national security as an excuse for their inert racism and/or bloodlust.

[click]

Yes, it's too bad that the hijackers did come to America legally. If terrorist acts start happening in the kitchens of every resturant in America, you can start to worry. Otherwise people should really stop using national security as an excuse for their inert racism and/or bloodlust.

I don't think the minutemen are there for bloodlust. I give them credit for bringing attention to the situation. I think that's what they're trying to do.
I don't think it's a matter of national security anymore either. When we do
let them slide we get blamed for them dying in the desert. So we spend millions setting up water stations? We need to make it harder for them. For every hard worker, there's hardened gang members escaping Mexican law.

[APortablePhone]

We need to make it harder for them. For every hard worker, there's hardened gang members escaping Mexican law.

Yes, but if we made it easier and more affordable for people to immigrate legally (while still doing full background checks) more honest hardworking people wouldn't feel the need to resort to breaking the law to get into the country. If coming here legally was looked at as a realistic option, it would be much easier to weed out gang members and such.

We should also offer amnesty to those illegal aliens currently in the country who are working and want to become citizens, in so far as they won't need to worry about being kicked out of the country during the two or three year process of becoming a citizen.

Making immigration less costly and somewhat more streamlined would not be a danger to national security, because if there are two things that terrorists have it’s money and determination.

I know quite a few illegal aliens, and none of them have any idea how to legally obtain their citizenship. I've looked into it for them, and even for a native born American who speaks nothing but English, I found it quite difficult to understand the entire process, and only so much information was available for free as most applications and forms had to be purchased. And the only chance they have to continue working in this country while going through the immigration process, is if their employers are willing to put their salary on the books, and most employers would rather bury the money.

Either way you look at it, the current system is broken, and having more people enter this country legally and having those who are already here feel comfortable letting the federal government know of the presence in this country, is not a bad thing. People are coming regardless, it’s much better if we actually have records and knowledge of their presence.

And no, the Minutemen aren't there for bloodlust. They are there because they are racist vigilantes who have gotten plenty of support from white separtist groups.

[abudabit]

Don't worry people. The majority of people who try to enter the US through the Arizona/Mexico border end up dying in the desert. :icon_roll


You're a genious! Let's make giant reflectors all along the border to cook anything that tries to walk past them!

[abudabit]

Yes, but if we made it easier and more affordable for people to immigrate legally (while still doing full background checks) more honest hardworking people wouldn't feel the need to resort to breaking the law to get into the country. If coming here legally was looked at as a realistic option, it would be much easier to weed out gang members and such.


Nobody here is saying we shouldn't make the visa process easier. We are saying that we should make an effort to dramaticly decrease illegal immigration. An easier visa process won't decrease the number of criminals and undesirables entering via our porous border. An easier visa process will help out the good immigrants, but it won't stop the bad ones. Only good border security will do that. That is why we need both visa reform AND a good fence.

So how is an easier visa process going to prevent mules and people who would fail the visa process from sneaking in?

Oh, and fuck you for calling us bloodthirsty racists...

[APortablePhone]

Nobody here is saying we shouldn't make the visa process easier. We are saying that we should make an effort to dramaticly decrease illegal immigration. An easier visa process won't decrease the number of criminals and undesirables entering via our porous border. An easier visa process will help out the good immigrants, but it won't stop the bad ones. Only good border security will do that. That is why we need both visa reform AND a good fence.

So how is an easier visa process going to prevent mules and people who would fail the visa process from sneaking in?

Oh, and fuck you for calling us bloodthirsty racists...

It would make it much easier to secure our borders as there would be fewer people crossing over illegally. It would allow us to focus on people who are coming here to commit illegal acts, rather than people who are just commiting an illegal act by coming here.

And read your post above the one I'm responding to if you need justification for my comments.

[abudabit]

It would make it much easier to secure our borders as there would be fewer people crossing over illegally. It would allow us to focus on people who are coming here to commit illegal acts, rather than people who are just commiting an illegal act by coming here.

And read your post above the one I'm responding to if you need justification for my comments.

That isn't how it works. If there were just 10 illegals crossing the border a day instead of 1000, those 10 wouldn't have a higher or lower chance of getting caught. The number of people attempting to cross doesn't increase or decrease any one individuals chance of detection.

And if you thought I actually wanted to build a giant reflector dish along the border then I am surprised you actually know how to type. In any case :clap: for learning how.

The truth is I come from THE most diverse part of the united states (according to time magazine). The majority of people here would be called 'liberals'. I've never heard anyone make any racist comments in seriousness (except in highschool of course). Yet the strong majority of us, including the hispanic population, wants more done to stop illegal immigration. It isn't a race issue; only people who know little to nothing about the subject suggest it is. The employment situation among migrants is horrible, thier livelihood is very poor, criminals enter into and destroy thier communities, and also in Mexico along the border the once beautiful towns are infested with organized and unorganized crime. I can understand your ignorance of the subject, you are probably an east coaster and only know what you have been fed by special interest groups. I on the other hand know many legal immigrants whose lives have been severely damaged by illegal immigration. And a simpler visa process will do nothing to prevent criminals from entering the country. It will do nothing to prevent the low end labour market from being flooded and legals being pushed out of jobs. And make no mistake about it. That IS what is happening, as we speak.

[Diceman Cometh]

Yes, it's too bad that the hijackers did come to America legally. If terrorist acts start happening in the kitchens of every resturant in America, you can start to worry. Otherwise people should really stop using national security as an excuse for their inert racism and/or bloodlust.


Racism? What the hell does racism have ot do with this? Yet another genious that loves to throw the racism card whenever someone doesnt agree with them.

Just because the 9/11 hijackers happened to not be illegal doesnt mean the next attack wont be committed by illegal immigrants.

Or are you totally fine with leaving a massive gap in national security?

[abudabit]

Don't even bother getting into the terrorism thing with the open borders people. It is a waste of breath. All you need is this to destroy any argument of thiers:

The truth is I come from THE most diverse part of the united states (according to time magazine). The majority of people here would be called 'liberals'. I've never heard anyone make any racist comments in seriousness (except in highschool of course). Yet the strong majority of us, including the hispanic population, wants more done to stop illegal immigration. It isn't a race issue; only people who know little to nothing about the subject suggest it is. The employment situation among migrants is horrible, thier livelihood is very poor, criminals enter into and destroy thier communities, and also in Mexico along the border the once beautiful towns are infested with organized and unorganized crime. I can understand your ignorance of the subject, you are probably an east coaster and only know what you have been fed by special interest groups. I on the other hand know many legal immigrants whose lives have been severely damaged by illegal immigration. And a simpler visa process will do nothing to prevent criminals from entering the country. It will do nothing to prevent the low end labour market from being flooded and legals being pushed out of jobs. And make no mistake about it. That IS what is happening, as we speak.

It's based 100% on my experience as a Californian who has half his friends/girlfriends/coworkers be 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. I even know a few illegal immigrants. Hell, I've even worked with illegals. Every morning the warehouse would pick a handful off the street corner and let them work for the day. The remaining half were unemployed for the day. Unchecked immigration even makes things shitty for the unchecked immigrants. Lots of illegals are forced to live packed in houses because the money they make can't support rent and sending money back to thier families. People who support illegal immigration are either cruel, greedy, or ignorant. If they really cared, they would focus on visa reform.

[APortablePhone]

Or are you totally fine with leaving a massive gap in national security?

Not at all. But I think if we tighten our borders we should also streamline the system for people who want to come to this country legally, which is something we should do regardless. I would much rather erase the need for honest people to feel the need to come to this country illegally because they don't know how or find it impractical to come here legally than to continue with illegal immigration. I don't think one should be done without the other, I think they should both be done.

If you don't think anyone's actions or feelings about immigration, including those of the more militant Minutemen, are based on race, I think you are quite misguided.

[APortablePhone]

The truth is I come from THE most diverse part of the united states (according to time magazine). The majority of people here would be called 'liberals'. I've never heard anyone make any racist comments in seriousness (except in highschool of course). Yet the strong majority of us, including the hispanic population, wants more done to stop illegal immigration. It isn't a race issue; only people who know little to nothing about the subject suggest it is. The employment situation among migrants is horrible, thier livelihood is very poor, criminals enter into and destroy thier communities, and also in Mexico along the border the once beautiful towns are infested with organized and unorganized crime. I can understand your ignorance of the subject, you are probably an east coaster and only know what you have been fed by special interest groups. I on the other hand know many legal immigrants whose lives have been severely damaged by illegal immigration.

I would much rather legal immigration to illegal immigration. I believe that immigration should be made much easier, and yes, that illegal immigration should be made harder. I'd have no objection in the least to that.

Until that is done though, the idea of vigilantes tracking people who cross the border and people calling for a demilitarized zone around the border does indeed bother me.

[abudabit]

If you don't think anyone's actions or feelings about immigration, including those of the more militant Minutemen, are based on race, I think you are quite misguided.

Of course there are people whose views on immigration are based on race. There are people whose views on EVERYTHING is based on race. But you don't have 70% of a diverse and liberal state like California wanting tighter border controls if the issue is a race issue. You are using strawman logic to knock down the case for tighter border controls, and that suggests that you don't have a decent argument for porous borders.

[abudabit]

Until that is done though, the idea of vigilantes tracking people who cross the border and people calling for a demilitarized zone around the border does indeed bother me.

First off, ignore anything Smoke has to say.

Second, the Minutemen are only doing the job that the government is not doing. You are using the loaded term vigilantes to conjour up images of violent loose cannons looking for prey, and it is a very dishonest form of argument.

Third, if you honestly want more legal and less illegal immigration, then you are on our side of the issue and you just don't want to admit it. Once you do admit it, however, you will begin looking for the most effective ways to make this happen. When you get to that stage, write your local candidates before the next election and let them know that you want a faster / simpler visa process and more border control.

Fourth, I agree 100% with you that the visa process is ugly; after all we have one of the lowest ranked visa processes in the world as far as service goes. I am incredibly anti-illegal immigration, but that does not make me anti-immigration. You need to realize that supporting reforms on this issue doesn't put you in bed with the gun turret people.

[APortablePhone]

First off, ignore anything Smoke has to say.

Second, the Minutemen are only doing the job that the government is not doing. You are using the loaded term vigilantes to conjour up images of violent loose cannons looking for prey, and it is a very dishonest form of argument.

Third, if you honestly want more legal and less illegal immigration, then you are on our side of the issue and you just don't want to admit it. Once you do admit it, however, you will begin looking for the most effective ways to make this happen. When you get to that stage, write your local candidates before the next election and let them know that you want a faster / simpler visa process and more border control.

Fourth, I agree 100% with you that the visa process is ugly; after all we have one of the lowest ranked visa processes in the world as far as service goes. I am incredibly anti-illegal immigration, but that does not make me anti-immigration. You need to realize that supporting reforms on this issue doesn't put you in bed with the gun turret people.

The more we discuss the issue the more I think we are both starting to realize that we pretty much agree. And believe it or not, I'm not a party liner and I have no problem admitting that I agree with you, especially considering that no party has really taken a firm stance on either side of this issue. My comments were directed mainly at the gun turret people in this thread, so sorry if I was somewhat disgusted after reading that and my initial post was foolishly terse.

I admit my comments about the Minutemen are a bit skewed, as they are more focused on this guy right here...http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0413detain13.html

The Minutemen for the most part seem to be mainly little more than bored retirees trying to make a difference.

Although about that above topic, this quote from the head of the Minutemen is quite abhorent...""He didn't shoot anybody, but he did feel he had to protect his country. I hope the charges will get dropped. I think he's probably learned his lesson," Gilchrist said."

[abudabit]

As far as the '08 presidential race goes, Hillary Clinton is actually the first candidate to mention tackling illegal immigration. So yeah, this isn't really a party line issue. Of course she might just be posturing because Bushes low numbers are in part due to his leniant stance on the subject, meanwhile he isn't doing anything for visa reform either.

[cableone12]

i doubt anyone will have the balls to seal up the borders. ever.

[APortablePhone]

As far as the '08 presidential race goes, Hillary Clinton is actually the first candidate to mention tackling illegal immigration. So yeah, this isn't really a party line issue. Of course she might just be posturing because Bushes low numbers are in part due to his leniant stance on the subject, meanwhile he isn't doing anything for visa reform either.

If Hilary Clinton actually gets the nomination, I'd just have to pull a Jim Norton in the '08 election.

But anyway, I just believe there are two issues here, and if people are calling for the President to address one you have to address the other. And I suppose in my initial posts I was as guilty as the people who I was upset with were (and you pretty much figured out who that was that bothered me anyway.) I do indeed realize the inordinently large spike in violent and drug crimes commited on American soil by illegal immigrants who thrive on the almost open door policy allowing them to dodge back and forth from one country to another when the police start to close in. And that is not to mention the more localized socio-economical conditions created that you touched on.

As someone who has illegal immigrants who I genuinely consider my friends, and knowing that they would much rather be here legally, I would just hate to see our borders locked down (by the government OR civilians) without a dramatic change to our overly complicated and money based immigration policies. There is no reason why someone with a clean background who wants to come here prepared to work 13 or 14 hours a day, six days a week, should feel the need to break the law and hide in the back of a tractor trailer with twenty other people to come here.

[abudabit]

If Hilary Clinton actually gets the nomination, I'd just have to pull a Jim Norton in the '08 election.

Have her drop a log on your chest?

[Smoke]

And no, the Minutemen aren't there for bloodlust. They are there because they are racist vigilantes who have gotten plenty of support from white separtist groups.
Once again the enlightened Liberal idea that "Only Whites can be racist" has popped up again. The invaders and "Reconquistadors" want to take back a large part of our nation based on their race and those who want to prevent that from happening are racist for fighting against it?!?

[Smoke]

We should also offer amnesty to those illegal aliens currently in the country who are working and want to become citizens, in so far as they won't need to worry about being kicked out of the country during the two or three year process of becoming a citizen.
Can we apply that same idea to speeding? If enough people do it, not only should they not be punished, we should accomidate them by changing the laws as well?

What about potential immigrants who followed the laws we have and aren't here. Send illegals back home if they want to be legal and let them start from step one.

BTW - If you're here illegally your children born here should not be given citizenship.

[BIV]

Can we apply that same idea to speeding? If enough people do it, not only should they not be punished, we should accomidate them by changing the laws as well?

What about potential immigrants who followed the laws we have and aren't here. Send illegals back home if they want to be legal and let them start from step one.

BTW - If you're here illegally your children born here should not be given citizenship.
Hello, exactly!

These people are criminals. Period. To cross the border illegally shows a blatant disregard for our laws.

There is more to national security then just stopping terrorists. Illegal immigrants have become a hideous drain on the economy. More than half of our taxpayer-financed social programs go to feed and house people who are here illegally, work illegally and don't contribute to society.

They are vermin that let business owners pay them slave wages. I don't care how little they get paid, but that is a minimum wage job that could have gone to a high school or college kid.

Fences, guards, sensors, fucking turrets...I don't care. But stop illegal immigration and keep all illegals out of the country. We shouldn't even be allowing legal immigration right now.

Do you know the immigration rate in the country is more than the birth rate? Take this to it's logical conclusion and that means EVERY American could have a job within a few years if we close the borders. All of us. Unemployment less than 0.01%...the only people not working are the ones who don't want to. When we have more jobs then people to fill them, then we let people in.

And you know what? I don't give a shit how terrible their country is. If you don't like your country, then fix the fucking thing. They are so fond of breaking the law, why don't they start with a fucking coup. Their troubles are not my fucking problem...them coming into my country is.

To put it more bluntly; I pay for this country, you don't. Get the fuck out.

[Smoke]

First off, ignore anything Smoke has to say.
Wow, that just made my sig and my day. It's nice to know when you can't defeat an argument ignoring it is the next best thing. Why should you (plural) ignore the points that I made otherwise?

Am I racist? Absolutely, it makes me cringe harder than anything O&A have ever done seeing a White woman holding her interracial child. I'm sure there's some reason for that buried deep in my psyche that causes that reaction, but as far as I'm concerned it's a normal and healthy one. In centuries past that was a simple way for the conquering peoples to forever remove the threat of the conquered from rising against them, kill all the men and marry the women to the soldiers. I'm not saying that's happening in our country on that level of warfare, but the results are the same in the long run, the conquered people is forever destroyed.

I'll admit I've been smacked down pretty hard on some issues here in the past, but that's the only way you're gonna convert me to your views. I used to be totally against any concept of Ghey marriage at all until Jolie negated 3/4 of my arguements against it.
Of course there are people whose views on immigration are based on race. There are people whose views on EVERYTHING is based on race.
Yep, I'm one of those people. Don't confuse me for a White Supremacist, I'm a White Seperatist, I want a nation that's homogenious racially as the biggest creation of conflict outside of religion is race. Intrestingly enough, I support the Jews in wanting a homogenious nation, and that certantly isn't a popular view among White Supremists.

A little off topic... but I believe in the "14 Words."
"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children."
Now the ADL says that's a White Supremacist thing to say (http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/numbers_14words.asp) but if you switch out White for any other ethnic group it no longer is racist to them. Yeah, so they guy who came up with it isn't exactly someone I'd invite over for dinner, but the point and concept behind it isn't a terrible thing. No ethnic group should be told self preservation is an evil concept.
You need to realize that supporting reforms on this issue doesn't put you in bed with the gun turret people.
If the Army doesn't exist to cover the border what do they exist for? It's an invasion weither or not the Mexican Army comes first or after California declares its alignment with Mexico.
i doubt anyone will have the balls to seal up the borders. ever.
Not with the power of the press as I previously noted. "The only way to fix it is to flush it all way." I used to be a republican too, but I can't see the difference between the two anymore. Only the retorical styles are different.

[turdfrgsn]

The more we discuss the issue the more I think we are both starting to realize that we pretty much agree.

Hardly


And believe it or not, I'm not a party liner

Yes you are, you're an open borders party liner, which means you're either a corporate greedhead (which I highly doubt), or you're a utopian idealist. My bet's on the latter.

These people are criminals. Period. To cross the border illegally shows a blatant disregard for our laws.

Bra-fuckin-vo. :clap:
Well put, sir. There's also such a thing as national sovereignty, which, by the way, is NOT xenophobia. It either means something to be a citizen, or it doesn't. The laws we enact either mean something or they don't, and if they don't, then this is a country no more, which means there is no law, which means anarchy, and despite whatever romanitc notions some trendy wannabe pseudo nihilistic punks have about anarchy being idyllic, it ain't. Thomas Hobbes, whose philosophy our constitution is based on in part, described life in anarchy as being "nasty, brutish and short." Besides, it's been tried several times. Never worked. Not once.

If you don't think anyone's actions or feelings about immigration, including those of the more militant Minutemen, are based on race, I think you are quite misguided.

I beg to differ. I think the Minutemen are merely doing what their own government refuses to, protecting our national sovereignty. I don't think race has anything to do with their actions. They'd still be there if the illegals were black, white, yellow, brown...doesn't make a difference. Retired military some may well be, but their motivations are the same as those soldiers standing point in Baghdad right now. Protecting our sovereignty, not trying to commit genocide of all races but the white one.

I DO however think it's prejudiced to allow lawbreakers access to more benefits and legal protection than many of our own citizens have. I think it's prejudiced to bestow citizenship to the product (and by proxy all relatives) of any pregnant senorita who can stumble across the border into a hospital ER before she drops. Not racist, but prejudiced. Prejudiced against every immigrant who obeys the law, does the hard work, and comes to this country to establish a new life. Prejudiced against every taxpayer whose pockets are picked to pay for all that medical care, the housing of all violent gang members in prison, and the life insurance of every dead cop (and their families) one of those gang members killed. Indeed, prejudiced against our own country, our founding principles, the philosophy of the free market economy and laissez faire government.

It is, in fact, socialist. Socialism has been tried before. It doesn't work and is in full erosion wherever it's still being practiced.

What's the definition of insanity? To keep repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different outcome. Rome didn't last forever. The United States won't either, and one sure fire way of bringing about its demise more rapidly is to allow millions of illegals to enter our country carte blanche.

[Paul808996]

I think the biggist issue about illegal immagrants coming into this country is the fact that they are taking jobs away from americans. President Bush's excuss for that is that these are jobs that nobody wants anyways such as construction, factory work, ect. Mayby thats not a job he would want but I know lots of people that would love to have those jobs that have been taken from them by illigal immagrants who will do it for minimum wage. And its not just the unemmployed it hurts but it drives everyones wages down. But its not unlike Bush to just not give a fuck about working people and do whats best for big business and coorperations. And as far as national security goes shouldn't we be watching our borders a little more closely.

[Jolie]

The truth is I come from THE most diverse part of the united states (according to time magazine).

Out of curiosity, where are you from?

Edit: Nevermind... I see where you are from...

[Smoke]

Yes you are, you're an open borders party liner, which means you're either a corporate greedhead (which I highly doubt), or you're a utopian idealist. My bet's on the latter.
Let's stick to attacking the arguments and not name calling or else this will get locked pretty quick, and what fun is that? I imagine he means a general sense of not being a Democan or a Republicrat. /that old gag

Rome didn't last forever. The United States won't either, and one sure fire way of bringing about its demise more rapidly is to allow millions of illegals to enter our country carte blanche.
Nice post turd... Wait, someone named turd frgsn is on my side here? Ah well :action-sm .

[Smoke]

I think the biggest issue about illegal immigrants coming into this country is the fact that they are taking jobs away from americans. President Bush's excuse for that is that these are jobs that nobody wants anyways such as construction, factory work, ect.
Mexico's President Fox said the same thing recently, agreeing with Bush. (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-fox15.html) I don't see them doing more than cleaning the malls and landscaping around here, but New England doesn't have a large number of Mexican immigrants.
'There's no doubt that the Mexican men and women -- full of dignity, willpower and a capacity for work -- are doing the work that not even blacks want to do in the United States,'' Fox said in Puerto Vallarta on Friday.
It's been said before and it will be said again, work ethic is important.

Politics is much like the stock market, people only seem to note the short term effects. Cheap labor keeps costs down, but the second these people become legal they will demand (rightfully so) legal pay, and that will strike down the benefits for the economy.

[Diceman Cometh]

Smoke, you posts are by far the most entertaining and the most articulate on Wackbag :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Smoke]

Thank you. /csk

Out there somewhere NJshawn is jealous.
It's OK to name him since he doesn't post anymore, right?

[tattered]

Thank you. /csk

Out there somewhere NJshawn is jealous.
It's OK to name him since he doesn't post anymore, right?

no he still posts once in a while


and Diceman....you never read any of the arguments between smoke and i where i in a very well articulated manner smack him around and make him my bitch.... oh hi smoke:action-sm

[Smoke]

and Diceman....you never read any of the arguments between smoke and i where i in a very well articulated manner smack him around and make him my bitch.... oh hi smoke:action-sm
Oh you mean all two of them where I was wrong on a minor historical detail? BTW you still need to give me back my pointed hood from when you borrowed it to go burn crosses. :action-sm

[tattered]

Oh you mean all two of them where I was wrong on a minor historical detail? BTW you still need to give me back my pointed hood from when you borrowed it to go burn crosses. :action-sm

minor? if by minor you mean completely distorted and inaccurate? then yeah...and you cant wear mine remember....i have the grand wizard one...remember?

[Smoke]

minor? if by minor you mean completely distorted and inaccurate? then yeah...and you cant wear mine remember....i have the grand wizard one...remember?
Yeah, but my Waffen SS uniform is pressed and looks much nicer with the medal on it than your role anyhow. :action-sm

[Jolie]

and Diceman....you never read any of the arguments between smoke and i where i in a very well articulated manner smack him around and make him my bitch.... oh hi smoke:action-sm

I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to:

I'll admit I've been smacked down pretty hard on some issues here in the past, but that's the only way you're gonna convert me to your views. I used to be totally against any concept of Ghey marriage at all until Jolie negated 3/4 of my arguements against it.


without gloating...

:)

[George W. Bush]

I want to let more Nazi's in. And then maybe we can all be friends with Nazi's.

[George W. Bush]

I want to retract that last statement. I thought Nazi's had something to do with lawn care.

[tattered]

Yeah, but my Waffen SS uniform is pressed and looks much nicer with the medal on it than your role anyhow. :action-sm


yeah shiny jack boots usually make any uniform nicer