HS Valedictorian’s Diploma Withheld Because Of Graduation Speech

[PrncssNikki]

Eagleville High School Valedictorian Abe Stoklasa said all he wanted to do was give a memorable speech, but what he thought was funny, school leaders considered offensive.

In his speech, Stoklasa planned to say, “You have given us the minimum required attention and education to master any station at any McDonald’s anywhere. For that we thank you. Of course, I’m only kidding. Eagleville is a fine institute of higher learning, with superb faculty and staff.” He said all of the jokes were simply segues to build up the school with compliments. But those in attendance at Eagleville’s graduation ceremony never heard that second part of Stoklasa’s speech because the school’s principal asked that the microphone be turned off when he varied from the speech he said he was going to deliver.

Eagleville High School principal Rhonda Holton said there were two sentences the school wanted Stoklasa to change.

“Because it implied that the students did not receive a quality education,” Holton said.

“I did not want to surrender to an administration that does not support the freedom of speech,” Stoklasa said in response.

Because of his speech, Stoklasa did not receive his diploma at the ceremony.

Holton said she withheld the diploma because Stoklasa had agreed to make changes to his speech and did not follow through with that promise.

Abe Stoklasa said he was also disappointed by all the controversy, and that he did not mean to cause any harm.

School leaders were scheduled to meet with Stoklasa Wednesday morning and give him his diploma at that time.



http://www.newschannel5.com/content/news/11520.asp

[ASSBAG]

Freedom of speech...bad!
Propaganda....good!

[sender_name]

High Schools always think they have so much power...you think back to the threats...ooh i have to pick up my diploma at the office...oooh....You move on, and forget about that crap. It is only once you are older that you realize what it is that you need to get out of highschool...enought to get into the college of your choice. This Valedictorian will move on to way bigger and better things...and the principal will be a nobody next week...good luck kid!

[giant pop tart]

That kid is screwed... thats going to go on his Permanent Record.

About a month after I graduated from high school, I got a letter that said if I wanted a copy of my "Permanent Record" I had to pick it up within 10 days, or it would be destroyed. What the hell kind of crap is that? you spend 12 years living in fear of this secret dossier, then a week later you find out it was all a big scam.

[Ballbuster1]

Too bad they can't take a joke. It's a shame for the kid, but he'll be
alright. I'm sure he will do well. Good for him for now bowing down
to pressure from the school administration.

[Smoke]

It will be fine when he sues for emotional distress from working to be Valedictorian only to have his microphone turned off. To have someone that quick on the switch of a celebration is depressing, but the censorship only mirrors the groupthink nation we live in.

[Fruit Monkey]

That kid is screwed... thats going to go on his Permanent Record.

About a month after I graduated from high school, I got a letter that said if I wanted a copy of my "Permanent Record" I had to pick it up within 10 days, or it would be destroyed. What the hell kind of crap is that? you spend 12 years living in fear of this secret dossier, then a week later you find out it was all a big scam.



oh god i think u made me piss myself permanent record ha ha ha ha ha :clap: :clap: :clap:

[PorchMonkey4Life]

i agree with th school... the kid should not get his diploma... those are the worst jokes ever.... who wrote those for him ant?
(btw... i mean the gay one... not the howard hughes one)

[PrncssNikki]

That kid is screwed... thats going to go on his Permanent Record.

About a month after I graduated from high school, I got a letter that said if I wanted a copy of my "Permanent Record" I had to pick it up within 10 days, or it would be destroyed. What the hell kind of crap is that? you spend 12 years living in fear of this secret dossier, then a week later you find out it was all a big scam.

Actually, the whole "permanent record" thing is bullshit. I worked in Admissions at a college and I would come into contact with the supposed "permanent record." All it had were the classes you took, the grades you made, and your attendance throughout High School. Nothing about suspensions, detentions or anything about how much trouble the potential student had caused.

[Begbie]

i agree with th school... the kid should not get his diploma... those are the worst jokes ever.... who wrote those for him ant?
(btw... i mean the gay one... not the howard hughes one)

I dunno, but didn't Vos have a show near Eagleville? 'I never gave back my library books to the librarian and now I'm dodging her.'

[Freddy's Finger]

Principles with cunts always suck

[Diceman Cometh]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but...

This is NOT a freedom of speech issue. Ant actually made this point on the air about the people complaining about the mods on this board..."Dude, stop deleting our posts, what ever happened to fucken freedom of speech!" Well Ant made the point that someone pays for this fucken server, and he has the right to make his own rules.

The principal said "look, you can make a little speech but there are certain guidelines we would like you to follow." The kid AGREED to them...he didnt have to do shit, he could have turned down the invitation. Instead, he lied to them. If I was the principal, I'd be pissed off too - but not so much cuz of what he said, but cuz he lied about what he'd say.

[BIV]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but...

This is NOT a freedom of speech issue. Ant actually made this point on the air about the people complaining about the mods on this board..."Dude, stop deleting our posts, what ever happened to fucken freedom of speech!" Well Ant made the point that someone pays for this fucken server, and he has the right to make his own rules.

The principal said "look, you can make a little speech but there are certain guidelines we would like you to follow." The kid AGREED to them...he didnt have to do shit, he could have turned down the invitation. Instead, he lied to them. If I was the principal, I'd be pissed off too - but not so much cuz of what he said, but cuz he lied about what he'd say.
It could be said that since the school is supported by taxpayer dollars that the kid had the right to say whatever he wanted.

[Hudson]

Diceman et al:
I was in high school and told I could not compete on both my club team and my school team for no other reason than the school thought they knew what was best...I had to choose. I chose the club because I was seeking a scholarship and I, quite frankly, was better than the competition in the local highs.(and I think I am/was a piece of shit)
I sent out applications to colleges I wanted to go to...later to find that certain people within my high-school I trusted, even asked for recommendations, gave me an intentionally poor recommendation because I chose to go club, and were told by the administration to flame me..if you were 18, would that make sense to you?

[THE FEZ MAN]

In high school, hell in any school environment, there is no such thing as freedom of speech even though our tax dollars pay there salaries and our votes put the school board into power they do not believe in any part of the constitution, even If your over 18 at the time of the incident, you are not afforded any protection under the constitution. I hated school with a passion that’s why I went to VO-Tech to learn a trade instead of paying some ass holes to “educate me” If I want to learn something I do it my self, and before you all start tooling on me about being ignorant because of my less than grammatical perfection in my posts, piss off, a person that is skilled with there hands is worth more to society than 1000 lawyers

[agentcg]

All school have that strange oppressive logic for some reason.

[Diceman Cometh]

a person that is skilled with there hands is worth more to society than 1000 lawyers

Sloooow down....I have total respect for people "that work with their hands" (my father does - he's a jeweler/Diamond Setter) but you need the lawyer/banker types to actually elevate society into the more advanced levels.

[Smoke]

Bankers, sure. But the system is getting too top heavy with lawyers. Hell, even with more lawyers now than ever our rights are still eroding.

[Ballbuster1]

Bankers, sure. But the system is getting too top heavy with lawyers. Hell, even with more lawyers now than ever our rights are still eroding.I have to agree with that. They are really more interested
in finding a case to make big bucks rather than protecting our rights.

[GreatAmericanZero]

when he said

“You have given us the minimum required attention and education to master any station at any McDonald’s anywhere. For that we thank you. Of course, I’m only kidding. Eagleville is a fine institute of higher learning, with superb faculty and staff.”

I thought afterwards he was going to say "FOR ME TO POOP ON!"

[THE FEZ MAN]

Sloooow down....I have total respect for people "that work with their hands" (my father does - he's a jeweler/Diamond Setter) but you need the lawyer/banker types to actually elevate society into the more advanced levels.
i smell a lawyer

[Diceman Cometh]

i smell a lawyer

I hope to be one, yes....

I am headed to my first year of law school after a tough 4 years of undergrad studies. I have ANOTHER three years of brutal, tough, hard work and studying ahead of me. I am paying fifty grand PER YEAR to attend law school. I have saved up cash since I was high school for this, and the rest is being paid by my father (who works as hard as a fucking mule for my family) and loans I plan to take out. My brother was in law school too, and the poor bastard never left his room, he was glued to his books just to stay slightly competitive among his fellow students.

Lawyers have to go through a tremendous amount of study and training to get where they are. Years and years of being glued to their books. And I didnt even get into the difficulty of the BAR exam.

I wouldnt try to convince a blue-collar worker that a lawyer, banker, or accountant is, pound-for-pound, more valuable to civilization than the blue-collar guy is (although I feel such a conclusion is fairly accurate)....but if you're gonna sit here and try and tell me that a blue-collar worker is "a thousand times more valuable", or even slightly more valuable than a lawyer or banker - sorry pal, I gotta call you out on that, cuz thats just insane.

[tattered]

I hope to be one, yes....

I am headed to my first year of law school after a tough 4 years of undergrad studies. I have three years of brutal, tough, hard work and studying ahead of me. I am paying fifty grand PER YEAR to attend law school. I have saved up cash since I was high school for this, and the rest is being paid by my father (who works as hard as a fucking mule for my family) and loans I plan to take out. My brother was in law school too, and the poor bastard never left his room, he was glued to his books just to stay slightly competitive among his fellow students.

Lawyers have to go through a tremendous amount of study and training to get where they are. Years and years of being glued to their books. And I didnt even get into the difficulty of the BAR exam.

I wouldnt try to convince a blue-collar worker that a lawyer, banker, or accountant is, pound-for-pound, more valuable to civilization than the blue-collar guy is (although I feel such a conclusion is fairly accurate)....but if you're gonna sit here and try and tell me that a blue-collar worker is "a thousand times more valuable", or even twice as valuable as a lawyer or banker - sorry pal, I gotta call you out on that, cuz thats just insane.

sorry pal i gotta call u out on this....Will you as a lawyer pick up a hammer to build your house? nope dont think so. As a lawyer will u put on your welding mask and build your mercedes? nope dont think so. As a lawyer will u flip burgers at the local diner so that you can eat out? nope dont think so. As a lawyer will you pick up a chain saw and cut down trees so that you can have Legal pads to write on? nope dont think so.

The reason why lawyers get paid so much money is that you have gone thru a shit load of training to do a single speacialized task. which goes for most high paid people in the world. The fact is though the average Blue Collar Work can do and will do most tasks you will not and can do a whole lot of them well

[Diceman Cometh]

sorry pal i gotta call u out on this....Will you as a lawyer pick up a hammer to build your house? nope dont think so. As a lawyer will u put on your welding mask and build your mercedes? nope dont think so. As a lawyer will u flip burgers at the local diner so that you can eat out? nope dont think so. As a lawyer will you pick up a chain saw and cut down trees so that you can have Legal pads to write on? nope dont think so.

The reason why lawyers get paid so much money is that you have gone thru a shit load of training to do a single speacialized task. which goes for most high paid people in the world. The fact is though the average Blue Collar Work can do and will do most tasks you will not and can do a whole lot of them well

yea....wait, what?

Dude, are you really gonna try and tell me a guy at the GM plant is worth more (or even the same) to civilization than a fucken banker?

I'm not arguing any of what you said, but you didnt disprove my argument at all...in fact you proved my point.

Lawyers and bankers went through relatively massive amounts of specialized education, while blue-collar workers have not. The point is that anyone can be a blue-collar worker. There are much more blue-collar workers in the world than there are lawyers...becoming a lawyer is far more difficult than learning to work in a GM plant. You can get anyone to do that. You can't get just anyone to go through seven years of hell in undergrad and law school...not everyone is up for that task. You have to be willing to sacrifice most of your 20's in order to study, and, more importantly, forego working.

One blue collar worker might (might) be worth 100 lawyers....in a hunter-gatherer society. But if you wanna develop a society past the bronze age, you need specialized professionals. Even ancient Egypt couldnt have existed without economic professionals.

And by the way...the guys who "built your house, welded your Merc together, used the chainsaw to cut the trees...." well, Mercedes, chainsaws, and construction companies wouldnt exist without lawyers and bankers to make that company function, so the blue-collar worker wouldnt even be working in those companies. You cant carry a chainsaw if a company doesnt exist to manufacture one.

Pound-for-pound is the key phrase here. Obviously, without blue-collar workers, the world wouldnt run. But thats like saying:

One soldier is worth more to an army than a thousand generals (yea, and the 19-year-old high school graduate knows military strategy and how to lead an army - forget about the guy who studied at West Point and has 40 years of experience)

or

One construction worker is worth more than a thousand architects (yea, and he knows enough about engineering and design to set up the blueprints and do the calculations - fuck the MIT-graduate who had to learn to study physics in his fucken sleep).


A single lawyer or banker or accountant is worth a hell of a lot more to post-stone-age civilization than a single blue-collar worker.


The reason why lawyers get paid so much money is that you have gone thru a shit load of training to do a single speacialized task. which goes for most high paid people in the world. The fact is though the average Blue Collar Work can do and will do most tasks you will not and can do a whole lot of them well

We are basically agreeing here....the lawyer is paid more because he has gone through tremendous training that relatively few people in this world are willing to go through. The job of most blue-collar workers are easy to learn...almost anyone can be taught them if they are healthy human beings. Before you flame me, keep in mind that I am only differentiating between the difficulty of their TRAINING - one is much tougher and time-consuming than the other's. Now, once they actually start WORKING in the real world, they BOTH expend equal amounts of time busting their ass (and no one gimme that shit about lawyers having it easy - my brothers are lawyers and accountants, they work like fucken maniacs). But the lawyer/banker spent his 20's in the library and in the classroom so he could differentiate himself from your average blue-collar worker and make tons of cash when he starts working.

[tattered]

actually sir Blue collar workers have done more for a civilization then a lawyer or a banker......Bankers have only been around since the invention of money....lawyers have only been around since the invention of a judical system....technically blue collar jobs have been around since the dawn of man....building and working with your hands is the corner stone of every civialization....if we all were lawyers or bankers nothing would happen because no one will know how to do any of the tasks that it takes to build a society. If it was not for blue collar workers busting their ass you wouldnt have a law school to even goto because it would not have been built.


thats what i think you are failing to see...yes your skills arer very important....but for example if a car plant had a good lawyer and good money flow from a good bank but no one to assemble the cars would they make any progress?

im not argueing that you are unimportant or vice versa....i just want you to see anyone that has any skills what so ever are important...we all work together to move society forward...not one person is more important in the grand scheme of things......just because you make more money doesnt mean you are more important....it just means there are less people with your skills.....supply and demand

[Diceman Cometh]

actually sir Blue collar workers have done more for a civilization then a lawyer or a banker......Bankers have only been around since the invention of money....lawyers have only been around since the invention of a judical system....technically blue collar jobs have been around since the dawn of man....building and working with your hands is the corner stone of every civialization....if we all were lawyers or bankers nothing would happen because no one will know how to do any of the tasks that it takes to build a society. If it was not for blue collar workers busting their ass you wouldnt have a law school to even goto because it would not have been built.


thats what i think you are failing to see...yes your skills arer very important....but for example if a car plant had a good lawyer and good money flow from a good bank but no one to assemble the cars would they make any progress?

im not argueing that you are unimportant or vice versa....i just want you to see anyone that has any skills what so ever are important...we all work together to move society forward...not one person is more important in the grand scheme of things......just because you make more money doesnt mean you are more important....it just means there are less people with your skills.....supply and demand

I never said that making more money is the reason for a lawyer's importance
- although it is certainly an indication of it.

But you fail to see my point. I already said that I understand that civilization cant function without the blue-collar workers, but what I'm saying is that a SINGLE professional is worth more than a SINGLE blue-collar....going back to the army analogy...what is a more devastating loss to an army, the loss of a single soldier or the loss of a single General or Colonel?...

...OBVIOUSLY, the army cannot exist without soldiers...but you need those talented few, that small group of leaders to turn a bunch of guys with guns into a fully-functional and effective army. Thats why one of those leaders is more important than any single soldier.

I'm not saying blue-collars arent important AS A WHOLE - but pound-for-pound, person-for-person, professionals contribute more to society. Since there are MUCH FEWER professionals than blue-collars, their importance AS A GROUP evens out with the importance with blue-collars as a group.

actually sir Blue collar workers have done more for a civilization then a lawyer or a banker......Bankers have only been around since the invention of money....lawyers have only been around since the invention of a judical system

Once again you're proving my point....for money or law systems to even function, you need lawyers and bankers. Otherwise you wont progress past the Bronze Age. They are the catalyst for an evolving society.

[Pvt Oompa Loomp]

This argument is moot, because one CAN'T exist without the other.

[Jolie]

I never said that making more money is the reason for a lawyer's importance
- although it is certainly an indication of it.

But you fail to see my point. I already said that I understand that civilization cant function without the blue-collar workers, but what I'm saying is that a SINGLE professional is worth more than a SINGLE blue-collar....going back to the army analogy...what is a more devastating loss to an army, the loss of a single soldier or the loss of a single General or Colonel?...

I'm not saying blue-collars arent important AS A WHOLE - but pound-for-pound, person-for-person, professionals contribute more to society. Since there are MUCH FEWER professionals than blue-collars, their importance AS A GROUP evens out with the importance with blue-collars as a group.


Who built the library you are so fond of spending time in?

Both are vital to an economy. There are more blue collar workers because there is a larger need for blue collar workers. Everyone in the country needs a place to live, which means that someone is needed to build the houses, apartments, condos, etc... that people live in. I can tell you, I have never personally had use for a lawyer.

To determine who is worth more, if you insist on putting a worth on either one, look to see which you could live without. I'm guessing that if you REALLY thought about it, not through the biased eyes of someone training to be a lawyer, but through objective lenses, you would determine that society would have a hard time functioning without both, and therefore their worth is identical.

[Diceman Cometh]

Who built the library you are so fond of spending time in?

Both are vital to an economy. There are more blue collar workers because there is a larger need for blue collar workers. Everyone in the country needs a place to live, which means that someone is needed to build the houses, apartments, condos, etc... that people live in. I can tell you, I have never personally had use for a lawyer.

To determine who is worth more, if you insist on putting a worth on either one, look to see which you could live without. I'm guessing that if you REALLY thought about it, not through the biased eyes of someone training to be a lawyer, but through objective lenses, you would determine that society would have a hard time functioning without both, and therefore their worth is identical.

You are twisting my words, Jolie...and ignoring the point that I keep trying to hammer home. Blue-collars as a group are of equal importance to professionals as a group. But the professional group is much smaller and much more difficult to be a part of than the blue-collar group, and therefore a single professional has much more weight than a single rank-and-file blue-collar worker.

A lawyer is paid more than a factory worker cuz his skills are much rarer, and much harder & more time-consuming to acquire than a factory worker's skills.

And you certainly have had use for a lawyer, if not personal use. Thats like saying you've never had use for cops because you never had to call 911.

I know what I'm saying isnt exactly PC and can even be construed as a cheap shot at blue-collared workers, but I have nothing but respect for them, and like I said, my father is one of them. But there is a reason he busted his ass to get my brothers and I through college. People go to college to DIFFERENTIATE themselves from high school grads, to make themselves MORE VALUABLE and LESS EXPENDABLE as an individual, and therefore have a better economic life than a high school grad.

[Diceman Cometh]

This argument is moot, because one CAN'T exist without the other.

I'm not arguing that either sir.

[tattered]

You are twisting my words, Jolie...and ignoring the point that I keep trying to hammer home. Blue-collars as a group are of equal importance to professionals as a group. But the professional group is much smaller and much more difficult to be a part of than the blue-collar group, and therefore a single professional has much more weight than a single rank-and-file blue-collar worker.

A lawyer is paid more than a factory worker cuz his skills are much rarer, and much harder & more time-consuming to acquire than a factory worker's skills.

And you certainly have had use for a lawyer, if not personal use. Thats like saying you've never had use for cops because you never had to call 911.

I know what I'm saying isnt exactly PC and can even be construed as a cheap shot at blue-collared workers, but I have nothing but respect for them, and like I said, my father is one of them. But there is a reason he busted his ass to get my brothers and I through college. People go to college to DIFFERENTIATE themselves from high school grads, to make themselves MORE VALUABLE and LESS EXPENDABLE as an individual, and therefore have a better economic life than a high school grad.




um sir....last time i checked....a jeweller is not a blue collar job...the jewellers in my town make a hell of alot more money then my step dad who is a contractor and owns his own business and he pulls in almost 80k a year

[Diceman Cometh]

um sir....last time i checked....a jeweller is not a blue collar job...the jewellers in my town make a hell of alot more money then my step dad who is a contractor and owns his own business and he pulls in almost 80k a year

My father hand-crafts jewelry....he sits on a workbench 15 hours a day with a shitload of tools, including drills and magnifying glasses. He uses his hands all day, and the callouses on his hands are so thick they feel like hard leather. How is that NOT a blue-collar job? Don't tell me what my father is and isnt.

the jewellers in my town make a hell of alot more money then my step dad who is a contractor and owns his own business and he pulls in almost 80k a year

My father barely pulls down more than that on a good year. He does not own a jewelry store - he actually makes the stuff, he doesnt sell it. Sellers make more.

[THE FEZ MAN]

Leave it to a lawyer to have to justify his existence. A man that can produce some thing with his hands can give you something of tangible value for his labor. All a lawyer will give you is a bill and all the banker will do is collect it.

[Diceman Cometh]

Leave it to a lawyer to have to justify his existence. A man that can produce some thing with his hands can give you something of tangible value for his labor. All a lawyer will give you is a bill and all the banker will do is collect it.

Spoken like a true dropout.

Teachers dont give you anything tangible, either...I guess they are worthless to you too, huh?

How about police detectives? What do they give you in your hands at the end of the day?

Before you trash lawyers, ask yourself how the fucken company you work for could function without one....it cant....and neither can the rest of civilization.

Leave it to a guy who went to trade school to justify his wasted opportunities by saying "but I can make stuff!"

And I'm not a lawyer YET....I chose to study in this field. If I really felt myself reaching to justify "my own existance," I'd go into something else. Unlike yourself, I know a little about the field of law and I know that the "ambulance chaser / divorce court" lawyers you are thinking about make up a small percentage of lawyers in general .... how about prosecutors, constitutional attorneys, international law specialists, etc.?

I know you've painted a picture in your head that most lawyers are greedy or evil, and you're the good guy cuz you chose a noble yet humble life...if that helps you go to sleep, dude, whatever, knock yourself out.

Everybody shits on lawyers until they need one :icon_roll

[THE FEZ MAN]

OHHH!!!!! MASSA PLEASE NO MO BEATIN! MA MINDE DONTS WORK SO FASS AN FANCY:coold:

[Jolie]

What use have I had for a lawyer?

Also, teachers AREN'T all that useful. I know plenty of people with nothing higher than a high school education making more than many of the professionals I know.

I commend you for going to school and spending a lot of money to become a lawyer, but don't condemn people who have chosen another path. Perhaps you could build a house you would be comfortable living in by yourself, or manufacture a car you would be able to drive by yourself, but I know I, for one, am really glad there are people to do those jobs for me. Without them, I would be naked living in a field, and that would make it really hard for me to get to work.

[giant pop tart]

Without them, I would be naked living in a field, and that would make it really hard for me to get to work.

Perhaps the work would come to you


:rolleyes:

[tattered]

My father hand-crafts jewelry....he sits on a workbench 15 hours a day with a shitload of tools, including drills and magnifying glasses. He uses his hands all day, and the callouses on his hands are so thick they feel like hard leather. How is that NOT a blue-collar job? Don't tell me what my father is and isnt.



My father barely pulls down more than that on a good year. He does not own a jewelry store - he actually makes the stuff, he doesnt sell it. Sellers make more.

well i do apologize then sir....i didnt know he actually made it...i thought he owned a store....

[Buffcoat]

Holy shit, guys. Nobody cares what you do - and nobody is impressed whether you're a lawyer, doctor, contractor, teacher, etc.

Jobs are like kids - I love mine and think nobody's is better or more important, but at least I understand that no one else gives a shit. Just do your jobs and stop trying to convince everyone else how important you are!

That being said, I can only hope, for that valedictorian's sake, that the "intellectual superiors" at the college he's trying to get into don't exercise their liberal logic and ruin his future because he offended the fragile egos of a few of their own.

[Diceman Cometh]

What use have I had for a lawyer?


Work in a company? Good...you've had use for a lawyer (it wouldnt exist without at least one lawyer working for it).

Enjoy this message board? Good...you've had use for a lawyer.

Enjoy O & A? Good....you've had use for a lawyer (they've got an army of lawyers working for them).

Enjoy law and order? A judicial system? The Constitution? A code of laws? Good....you've had use for a lawyer.


Simply amazing, Jolie.....you will go out of your way to praise blue-collar workers, yet you will turn around and say "you've never had use for a lawyer," a statement so laughable, ridiculous, and blatantly untrue for anyone living outside the Congo or Amazon. I've read your previous posts and I know you're not stupid, so lets not start grabbing for straws here....


Also, teachers AREN'T all that useful. I know plenty of people with nothing higher than a high school education making more than many of the professionals I know.

....and lets not insult anyone's intelligence here. I know plenty of people who went to Vegas and actually made some money. The fact is that for every ONE that beats the House, one HUNDRED lose to it. There are always exceptions to any rule. We are talking about trends and patterns here. And we all know what the AVERAGE outcome is in the case of High School VS College education.

And exactly what was the purpose of your above statement, Jolie? What were you getting at? That he was RIGHT when he implied that only a person who can produce something tangible brings any real worth to society? That must've been what you were getting at, since that's the point that I was addressing and you were trying to contradict. And if thats the case....do you really believe one has to produce something tangible to be of use? You have a problem with my "Teachers" example...but what about law enforcement? They dont produce anything tangible either. Firefighters? Taxi cab drivers? Messengers? Journalists? Engineers (as opposed to those who actually assemble)? Nothing to contribute to society there?

[Diceman Cometh]

I commend you for going to school and spending a lot of money to become a lawyer, but don't condemn people who have chosen another path.

I never condemned anyone - I have given half a dozen disclaimers in my previous posts saying that I have nothing but respect and appreciation for blue-collars, and I do not think of myself as somehow being "better" than them on a personal level.

[Jolie]

I never condemned anyone - I have given half a dozen disclaimers in my previous posts saying that I have nothing but respect and appreciation for blue-collars, and I do not think of myself as somehow being "better" than them on a personal level.

Sure you do. You've already said that one single lawyer is worth more than one single blue collar worker. I can only assume since you are studying to BE a lawyer, you will, when you become a lawyer, consider your contribution to society to be greater than one single blue collar worker. In other words, you are better than that person.

[Jolie]

Work in a company? Good...you've had use for a lawyer (it wouldnt exist without at least one lawyer working for it).

My company may have use for a lawyer. I, personally, do not.

Enjoy this message board? Good...you've had use for a lawyer.

you've lost me here. no idea why my ability to post on a message board requires me to have a lawyer.

Enjoy O & A? Good....you've had use for a lawyer (they've got an army of lawyers working for them).

again, O&A have use for a lawyer. I, personally, do not.

....and lets not insult anyone's intelligence here. I know plenty of people who went to Vegas and actually made some money. The fact is that for every ONE that beats the House, one HUNDRED lose to it. There are always exceptions to any rule. We are talking about trends and patterns here. And we all know what the AVERAGE outcome is in the case of High School VS College education.

I must know a hell of a lot of exceptions to the rule then. I'm not saying I know one or two people without college degrees making more than the people i know WITH college degrees. Almost every person I associate with that only has a hs degree is making more than the people I know WITH college degrees.

And exactly what was the purpose of your above statement, Jolie? What were you getting at? That he was RIGHT when he implied that only a person who can produce something tangible brings any real worth to society? That must've been what you were getting at, since that's the point that I was addressing and you were trying to contradict.

nope. merely making an obervation based on a comment on a message board.

[Diceman Cometh]

My company may have use for a lawyer. I, personally, do not.


and I've never had personal use for a cop....my world would be very different without them, though.

you've lost me here. no idea why my ability to post on a message board requires me to have a lawyer.


A) Many of the controversial things said here are protected by constitutional rights which lawyers created and many continue to defend, and

B) the company that owns the server for this board needs lawyers.


I must know a hell of a lot of exceptions to the rule then. I'm not saying I know one or two people without college degrees making more than the people i know WITH college degrees. Almost every person I associate with that only has a hs degree is making more than the people I know WITH college degrees.

If what you are saying is true, well then yes, you do know a hell of a lot of exceptions to the rule, because simple statistical data shows that college grads - by far - do financially better than high school grads. Once again, lets not insult eachothers intelligence...we both know what the hard numbers say. And by the way, finding even thousands of exceptions in a nation of hundreds of millions is still an insignificant number compared to the larger pattern.

I know plenty of high school dropouts that make more money than professionals I know....but I'm not gonna kid myself into thinking that is the norm.


Sure you do. You've already said that one single lawyer is worth more than one single blue collar worker. I can only assume since you are studying to BE a lawyer, you will, when you become a lawyer, consider your contribution to society to be greater than one single blue collar worker. In other words, you are better than that person.

I've said nothing of my personal virtues and vices. And I just said that I dont think I am better than them on any personal level. I am simply saying that in terms of career path and skill sets, a single lawyer or other professional is more rare in this world than a single blue-collar, and is therefore harder to replace.

Now, if one were to judge a man's worth based soley on the rarity and difficulty of his profession, then yes, you could say professionals are worth more....but thats not the case at all, is it? There is more to a person than his job, isnt there? And in all those other attributes, I do not make a general claim to higher worth.

But in terms of the skill sets a lawyer brings to the table and the worth of those skills to civilization - and in that regard ONLY - then yes, I openly say that a lawyer bring more than any one single blue-collar.

Its not a statement of individual superiority, its a simple fact about the skills that are in higher demand in this world.

[Jolie]

and I've never had personal use for a cop....my world would be very different without them, though.

your world would also be very different without a house/apartment/etc. to live in. if thats the way we judge, then I go back to what i said initially, which is that "that society would have a hard time functioning without both, and therefore their worth is identical."

A) Many of the controversial things said here are protected by constitutional rights which lawyers created and many continue to defend, and

B) the company that owns the server for this board needs lawyers.

on this particular board, the controversial things that are said are protected by stingrays willingness to let us post them, not a lawyer (unless hes a lawyer, and if thats the case, you are right and I have need of a lawyer) and not the constitution.

not all companies have lawyers. again, I know people who own businesses and to my knowledge they've never had use for a lawyer either.

And regardless, I dont own the company that owns the server for this board, therefore *I* dont use their lawyers.

I've never said lawyers don't play a vital role in our society. I just dont believe their role is any more vital than the person who builds our shelters or the person who grows our crops or the person who raises our livestock or the person who cares for our sick. They are all necessary to build a society. In fact, specialization is what allows a society like ours to thrive.

[Screwtape]

high schools are the first institutions of wide-spread censorship and control we face growing up.
My advice: stay high, dont go to class, and go to a broadcasting school