Hybrid vehicles

[HummerTuesdays]

My question: Anyone here own or drive a hybrid car? I'm considering trading in my car and getting one, and want some opinions about how they drive, are they worth it, etc. I already drive a compact car, so I'd be looking to get a Prius or one of the Hondas.

I'm just starting my research, and thought I'd get the opinions of the wackbaggers. Any feedback is appreciated!

Thanks!

[DoughBoy]

I've testdriven a few of them, but never 'pulled the trigger' I can't bitch about

[lucky]

Heard once that it would take like 20 years to break even on the extra front end cost from other vehicles

[lucky]

Forgot to mention that gas was about a dollar a gallon cheaper then

[HummerTuesdays]

Heard once that it would take like 20 years to break even on the extra front end cost from other vehicles

Maybe I should look into used ones?

[lucky]

Check them out first. If I remember right the batteries need to be replaced every few years and the costs to do that was huge. Like a couple thousand. Check this out as this is a few years info when I checked into them years ago.

[Quint]

Did some research on this a while back. Toyota by far has the best technology. Look for a 2004 or later Prius, or the new hybrid Highlander. They are also bringing out a hybrid Camry in the next couple of years. These cars are ideal for city driving -- the battery is recharged during braking and the engine is most efficient under 40 mph. The Prius also comes with a lot of toys -- push button ignition, Bluetooth option, etc.
If you plan on doing mostly highway driving, you may be better off with a Corolla (40 mpg highway) or a Camry or a Honda.
I was looking into getting a Prius but found that every time I saw one on the highway, I was passing it.

Toyota also offers an 8 year warranty on Hybrid parts including batteries.

[lucky]

My massage therapist just bought the Prius and she is happy with it but she uses it on in city.

[FreeTheCricket]

In my opinion, hybrids are a joke. It has come out recently that the gas mileage is WAY overstated. Plus, the initial cost of purchasing one is so outrageous that you will be hard-pressed to ever recoup that money on gas savings, even if gas hits 3 bucks a gallon.
The idea is promising, but the current crop of hybrids are a little bit of technology and a ton of marketing.

[HummerTuesdays]

I do a little bit of both highway and stop-and-go. I'm also looking to stick with a smaller car. A highlander would be nice, but I'm guessing it'll put me right about where I am as far as milage goes. Plus, I'm not one to buy a model the first year it hits the market. Let someone else work out the bugs.

I did a quick "build my car" for a Prius, and it came out to be in the mid-20's. Not too bad, considering I pretty much went with the "fully loaded" but didn't choose any accessories. However, I didn't see XM as one of the options. No biggie since I've got a Roady 2 and can easily move it from car to car.

[lucky]

In my opinion, hybrids are a joke. It has come out recently that the gas mileage is WAY overstated. Plus, the initial cost of purchasing one is so outrageous that you will be hard-pressed to ever recoup that money on gas savings, even if gas hits 3 bucks a gallon.
The idea is promising, but the current crop of hybrids are a little bit of technology and a ton of marketing.


That is what I pretty much found also. There needed to be a lot of batteries and they were very heavy and expensive to replace. And also could be dangerous in accidents. The marketing though is very slick and would definitely use them if needed a marketing campaign.

[Myhairygrundle]

If MPG is your worry, you can't go wrong with a VW Jetta TDI 50mpg highway. Costs less than a hybrid.

[diggerdog]

My concerns would be once the car comes off of warranty will there be any non-dealer repair shops that have the ability to work on it and does that huge ass battery become "hazardous waste" that you would be responsible $$$ for disposing of?

[d0uche_n0zzle]

Toyota and Honda both have outstanding service (usually) they don't try and ass **** their customers because they depend on them to spread the word.

[Sinn Fein]

The VW TDI option is definitely viable... don't overlook it. They have been around for a long time and are proven to be reliable and high-quality vehicles.

There are alot of unanswered (and unanswerable) questions about hybrids because they haven't been around long enough. You're going to be married to the manufacturer because each manufacturer does things a little differently. I don't see an aftermarket developing for quite some time, so the likelihood of being able to take it to your local mechanic for service seems doubtful for at least the near future.

[HummerTuesdays]

I do drive an economy car, it's about 4 years old, and I get about 30 MPG when I drive the speed limit.

Do I *need* a new car? Nope. But if I'm going to get one I was leaning towards a hybrid.

[Sinn Fein]

50 MPG is alot better than 30MPG. Combine with the fact that right now, diesel costs less than gasoline (at least it does around me and has for about 6 months).

[lucky]

Hummer if you are happy with the car you have and the MPG sounds great to me then just keep it and drive the wheels off. Then put the money aside and treat yourself to a nice vacation on the savings every year.

[d0uche_n0zzle]

50 MPG is alot better than 30MPG. Combine with the fact that right now, diesel costs less than gasoline (at least it does around me and has for about 6 months).

And if you were to add a biodiesel kit to the car, you'd be helping to keep the environment clean.

[FreeTheCricket]

I do drive an economy car, it's about 4 years old, and I get about 30 MPG when I drive the speed limit.

Do I *need* a new car? Nope. But if I'm going to get one I was leaning towards a hybrid.

You're better off buying a standard Accord or something like that. They get good gas mileage, and cost $10,000 - $15,000 less than the hybrid models. Plus, you can go buy one tomorrow, whereas for a hybrid you have to wait 6 months, at least that's how it is here in Cleveland.

Also - diesel is about 50 cents more per gallon than gas here in Cleveland. And, yes, please put the biodeisel kit in. I own Lubrizol stock, and they make that stuff, so you'll make me rich.

[HummerTuesdays]

Hummer if you are happy with the car you have and the MPG sounds great to me then just keep it and drive the wheels off. Then put the money aside and treat yourself to a nice vacation on the savings every year.

I think I'll put that money towards paying off my student loan. I'm not nearly as house poor as I thought I would be, which is why I'm considering a big splurge like a new car.

[Quint]

When I was researching, I stumbled upon a couple of message boards for Prius owners. I'm sure that these and other boards for other models can answer your questions more honestly than a dealer.
i was leaning toward a Prius for a while but now am looking more toward the Corolla. It still gets excellent milage (I am currently getting 30+ mpg on my '94 Corolla) and it is several thousand dollars cheaper than the Prius.
Also, if you get any thrill out of negotiating with the sales person, you can forget it with a hybrid. Because they are driving up demand with low production, the sticker price is the price.

[Carl Spackler]

I took a class on Hybrid Vehicles last month in Baltimore at a Firefighter's Convention. I also play cards on Fridays with a couple Honda dealers. I have some insight that has been mentioned here but I can maybe go into some better detail.

A lot of people are talking about the battery. There are 2 batteries actually. There is a normal battery like every other car and then theres the high voltage battery thats in the trunk. The high voltage battery only has a 7 year life before needing replacement. The cost to replace the battery is around $3000.

Someone mentioned something about the high voltage battery being hazardous waste and thats wrong. The DEP has deemed that even though there are some pretty nasty chemicals that go into the battery, they are mostly absorbed into the cells, and when the battery is wasted, it is considered a dry cell battery and does not require special disposal.

My car dealer buddies are the ones who make the most sense on the cost point. The cost for a hybrid civic vs a comperable optioned regular civic is like $3000 or so (I had this convo a couple months back so my #s may not be that accurate but you should get the point.) By the time you break even with the lower gas costs, it will be time to replace the battery and it will cost you another $3000. None of the Honda dealers recommended getting a hybrid.

The problem with maintaining the vehicle is another issue because you can't just take the car to your normal mechanic. You have to go to Honda, or Toyota, or whoever and anyone who owns a new car knows that after that warranty is up its expensive.

I hope this helps in making your decision. I feel they are not worth the money because it takes too long to break even. And by the time you break even, how much longer do u plan on hanging on to it afterwards. By then they could have hybrids with better mileage or even hydrogen cars. So since the future of automobiles is changing every second, who knows if todays hybrid is economical by the time you break even.

[NikDaSchwugie]

We recently bought a new VW wagon after looking at some of the hybrids. In the end, we decided to get a diesel wagon and convert it to a greasecar.

[Bill]

Wow there's a lot of incorrect information in this thread (along with some accurate info).

I own an '03 Civic Hybrid. Depending on weather and the type of driving that I do, I average between 42 & 45 mpg on each tank. Because of the timing of my purchase (2/03) and the complete ignorance of everyone in the dealership, I got an amazing deal on the Civic. I paid about $17K for it (sticker was a little over $21K). Essentially, I paid no more for the Hybrid than I would have if I had bought the highest level Civic (which is a similar trim line to the Civic). Currently, there is definitely a premium for buying a hybrid. On the sticker, the premium is currently about $3K. But in reality, it's probably more than that because you are more likely to be able to bargain down the price of a non-hybrid model than a hybrid model.

However, depending on your tax situation and where you live, there are tax deductions and credits available (I got a $2000 federal deduction, a $2000 state tax credit and $3K of the price was exempt from sales tax). So, even if I had paid the $3,000 premium, I would have gotten about $2,500 of that back in tax incentives. So the payback would have only been $500. As it was, I was ahead of the game before I walked out of the dealership.

Right now, only the Prius, Civic and Honda Insight are designed for maximum mileage. The Lexus RX 400h, Toyota Highlander, Honda Accord and Ford Escape have all been designed to utilize some of the electric power to improve performance at the expense of mileage. I think that this was a mistake on the part of the manufacturers, but historically, power sells better than economy. Apparently, this decision has backfired on the manufacturers. With the way that gas prices have recently risen, the public currently wants their hybrids to be more economical. The dealers can't keep the Prius, Civic or Insight in stock and they're having a hard time selling the other models. Also, every month, I get a letter from my local dealership offering to buy my car back from me at a $1000 premium (that letter gets tossed in the garbage monthly).

I've read that the president of Toyota is looking for future hybrids to be able to switch between improved mileage or enhanced performance at the push of a button.

The batteries don't have a pre-determined shelf life. Honda has been selling the Civic in Japan for about 4 years longer than in the US and there haven't been battery problems there yet. I've heard stories of people with 200,000 miles on their Civic Hybrid with the original batteries. Currently the batteries in the Civic have an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty. Even if batteries go bad after the warranty period is up, it's probably fair to assume that economies of scale would have reduced the replacement cost significantly.

As far as having to continue to go to the dealer for servicing, that's bullshit (at least with the Civic it is). I've been taking mine to my mechanic ever since I passed the warranty period (for maintenance things: oil changes, brakes, etc...). The only reason that I'd take it to the dealer is if there was a problem specifically related to the electric motor.

The only thing that I don't like about the Civic Hybrid is that, because the batteries are right behind the back seat, it makes a small trunk even smaller and they prevent the back seat from being able to fold down. Because of that, it's difficult to carry large things. I would have preferred that they take up space in the sides of the trunk and still allow the seats to fold down.

One thing that I really like about the Civic a lot is that it has a guage that constantly tells me the mileage that I am currently getting. I was amazed at how much this display has helped me to slightly change my driving habits to maximize mileage without sacrificing anything. You'd be amazed at how much gas you'd save if, when you see a light turn red up ahead, you just take your foot off of the gas and coast to the light. I think that something like this would be a good idea in every car, hybrid or not.

Right now, I think that the Prius is the best hybrid out there. If I were buying now, that's what I'd be looking at. However, I've seen some stuff about the improvements being made to the 2006 Civic that look interesting. I'm really hoping that Toyota learns from the mistake of trying to improve performance rather than economy in their larger hybrids. The Lexus RX400h was something that I was really considering until I learned that it had 38 more horsepower than the RX300 (268 vs 230) and only gets 4 mpg more highway.

Depending on where you live, small diesels can be a great idea. However, because of increased emissions, many of these cars are not allowed to be sold in some states. If you can buy something like a Jetta diesel and willing to put in a little effort, making your own bio-diesel fuel or a full conversion to a greasecar (http://www.greasecar.com) is incredibly economical. Even without using biodiesel, something like NikDaSchwugie bought is a great option.

If you have any specific questions regarding hybrids, feel free to PM me.

[Got One?]

i think the hybrid thing still needs a few more years of development... once more and more carmakers come out with their own versions, the prices of them may drop, and who knows what gas will be up to.

thanks.
-captain obvious.

[Bill]

once more and more carmakers come out with their own versions, the prices of them may drop

I'm actually afraid of more car makers coming out with hybrids. I'm convinced that Chrysler and GM will fuck them up so badly that they will just get a horrible reputation.

I just can't help but think that a GM and Chrysler will be to hybrid vehicles what Three Mile Island and Chernobyl are to nuclear power plants.

Right now, I'd like to see Nissan and maybe one of the German car makers jump on board with hybrids. But I have the most confidence in Toyota and Honda leading the way with hybrid Technology. The president of Toyota said that his company's goal is to have 10 hybrid models by 2010. I hope that Honda follows suit.

[giant pop tart]

I'm actually afraid of more car makers coming out with hybrids. I'm convinced that Chrysler and GM will fuck them up so badly that they will just get a horrible reputation.


They'll both Fuck em up, but at least the Chryslers will look good.

Chrysler already has an alternative to hybrids. It doesn't get nearly as good mileage, but it helps. On the Hemi-powered 300 and Magnum, the engine will shut down 4cylinders when not under load. It'll only get you up to maybe 20-25MPG, but thats damn good for a big V-8.

[Bill]

Chrysler already has an alternative to hybrids. It doesn't get nearly as good mileage, but it helps. On the Hemi-powered 300 and Magnum, the engine will shut down 4cylinders when not under load.

Honda is doing the same thing with the Accord Hybrid. It turns into a 3 cylinder engine when the load lightens.

Unfortunately, they also used the electric motor to increase horsepower from 240 to 255 rather than competely utilizing that "free" energy to reduce mileage.

[Sutsu]

That shutting cylinders down thing has actually been around for awhile. I remember hearing about a Buick 8-6-4 (At least, I think it was a Buick) that would do the same thing back in the late 70's/early 80's. It's just now that there are better fuel injection systems and distributorless ignitions it actually works right now ;)

[Farm Flufer]

That shutting cylinders down thing has actually been around for awhile. I remember hearing about a Buick 8-6-4 (At least, I think it was a Buick) that would do the same thing back in the late 70's/early 80's. It's just now that there are better fuel injection systems and distributorless ignitions it actually works right now ;)

It was actually a Caddy and it didn't work worth a shit. Most of them got swapped out for real V8's.

[Bill]

The 2006 Civic Hybrid engine is going to have extra valves on each cylinder. One set will be configured for power and the other will be configured for economy. When the car needs more power, due to acceleration, hill climbing, etc, the power valves will operate. When running under normal circumstances, the economy valves will operate.

One of the nice by-products of the research that the auto manufacturers are putting into hybrid cars is that they come up with ideas this or can justify working on existing ideas to make them work, like shutting down cylinders, that can improve non-hybrid cars as well.

[crescentwrench]

I read that gas would have to be somewhere around 6 bucks a gallon before hybrids were a viable choice as far as cost. What you're saving in gas is offset by the higher offset costs and higher service, even with tax credits. Edmonds I think it was? The only reason now to pull the trigger on one is if you are concerned about the environmental impact of oil use.

[THE FEZ MAN]

i've always wanted to convert a small diesiel to run on cornoil or build a gastrubine/electric car. the gas turbine will run on anything combustable and the charging the batteries off the breaks is a great idea. we have this debate about 3 times a month at my shop. two of my coworkers think i'm nuts (there old fossels) and the other dude is ready to help

[Brady T cell]

I'm actually afraid of more car makers coming out with hybrids. I'm convinced that Chrysler and GM will fuck them up so badly that they will just get a horrible reputation.

I just can't help but think that a GM and Chrysler will be to hybrid vehicles what Three Mile Island and Chernobyl are to nuclear power plants.

Right now, I'd like to see Nissan and maybe one of the German car makers jump on board with hybrids. But I have the most confidence in Toyota and Honda leading the way with hybrid Technology. The president of Toyota said that his company's goal is to have 10 hybrid models by 2010. I hope that Honda follows suit.

Nissan is coming out with a hybrid Altima in 2007. They are using Toyota's technology so it should be a good choice. Plus, I read that the 4 cylinder will have the same amount of power as the gas 3.5.

I still can't see me buying a hybrid till the 0-60 times get under forever.

My car gets 17mpg. I just budget accordingly.