Origins of the universe....

[Diceman Cometh]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm well aware that this could end up being moonachied, but I tried talking to some friends about this first, and didn't get many good responses, and I know there are some intelligent wackbaggers in here, so....

OK, there was a topic in Current Events that was swung in the direction of this topic, and the question has haunted me for days....its a question I havent thought of since I was a kid. I would like to read some philosophical and/or scientific attempts to answer "The Question," but I'm also curious about other wackbaggers' thoughts on this.

The question, of course, is: what did the universe come from?

Just a request: try not give answers that "write off" the question, like:
It just came into existence by accident
It was here for eternity
It was created by a Creator

Logic dictates something cannot come from nothing. If the universe is here by accident, how did it get here? Where did it come from? If the universe was created by a creator, where did he/it come from? If he is eternal, what is the nature of the eternity? Try to drill as deep as you possibly can.

If anyone has any links or suggested reading, please post.

PS: No, I have not been smoking pot.

[TheSolipsist]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm well aware that this could end up being moonachied, but I tried talking to some friends about this first, and didn't get many good responses, and I know there are some intelligent wackbaggers in here, so....

OK, there was a topic in Current Events that was swung in the direction of this topic, and the question has haunted me for days....its a question I havent thought of since I was a kid. I would like to read some philosophical and/or scientific attempts to answer "The Question," but I'm also curious about other wackbaggers' thoughts on this.

The question, of course, is: what did the universe come from?

Just a request: try not give answers that "write off" the question, like:
It just came into existence by accident
It was here for eternity
It was created by a Creator

Logic dictates something cannot come from nothing. If the universe is here by accident, how did it get here? Where did it come from? If the universe was created by a creator, where did he/it come from? If he is eternal, what is the nature of the eternity? Try to drill as deep as you possibly can.

If anyone has any links or suggested reading, please post.

PS: No, I have not been smoking pot.

it doesn't answer ur question but this topic reminds me of a bill hicks quote.

"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed through a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather"

yes, life is only a dream, my friend. don't worry about where the universe is from, becuase it isn't real, all we have is this dream that we live in now. if u spend too much time thinking about these types of questions, the dream will end, and before you know it, and the answer will not matter.

....Row, Row, Row your boat, gently down the stream...Merrily, Merrily, Merrily, life is but a Dream...

good night.

[jazzcock]

Interesting question Diceman. It is true that "Logic does dictate that something can not come out of nothing", but nothing is still something. "nothing" is the absence of materials (matter or light), materials being defined as components to a physicaly interacting universe. Physics can not be applied to "nothing" but physics in a universe as we know it. It has been shown (i can list references later) that such physical components of our universe have disappeared. Presumably, they are unstable and slip between an opposite universe. think of a photograph negative, white is black and vise-versa. However, a photograph is a static example, our universe is dynamic. It shrinks and explodes, it breathes. Forces such as entropy and enthalpy either build-up or break-down the fabric of our universe.
In summary: In the begining there was an exhale and there will be an inhale.

more to follow...

[[US]lowkeysteve]

I remember Ron and Fez talking about this once when they were on WNEW. The scientific community hasn't come up with any new theories regarding the cause of the creation in a long while. And you'll always have people saying that the Lord created it all.

Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, how did this universe just pop up out of nowhere? And what the hell was going on 10 minutes before the Big Bang? The idea that there is a master creator who is responsible for creating the universe is hard to believe; how can you explain where this creator came from?

I think it's futile to try to answer these questions because humans are never going to find out what happened before the Big Bang. All we know is that it happened and the universe was filled with elements. Anyone who claims to know what caused the creation of the universe has got to be talking out of his ass. And if there is a master creator that came out of nothing and created the universe, then we'll all have to wait for Judgement Day to see if that's true.

Jazzcock, how can something come from nothing? i've heard, theoretically, it is possible for a physical object to just pop out of nowhere, but this was always connected with a 'parallel universe' theory. How did this/these universe(s) come about in the first place? And by the way, the universe tends to entropy - disorder - not order. Enthalphy is not the same thing as order.

I've also read that because of the energy equilibrium in the universe, theoretically, there has to be 'white holes' to counterbalance 'black holes'. So, in theory, somewhere out there is a hole pumping out carbon and hydrogen and oak tables and ceramic figurines. This universe is just fucking weird.

Life is hard to enough without worrying about the big questions. In a way, I kinda don't want to know what created the universe. The answer could be really disappointing.

[jazzcock]

lowkeysteve']I remember Ron and Fez talking about this once when they were on WNEW. The scientific community hasn't come up with any new theories regarding the cause of the creation in a long while. And you'll always have people saying that the Lord created it all.

Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, how did this universe just pop up out of nowhere? And what the hell was going on 10 minutes before the Big Bang? The idea that there is a master creator who is responsible for creating the universe is hard to believe; how can you explain where this creator came from?

I think it's futile to try to answer these questions because humans are never going to find out what happened before the Big Bang. All we know is that it happened and the universe was filled with elements. Anyone who claims to know what caused the creation of the universe has got to be talking out of his ass. And if there is a master creator that came out of nothing and created the universe, then we'll all have to wait for Judgement Day to see if that's true.

Jazzcock, how can something come from nothing? i've heard, theoretically, it is possible for a physical object to just pop out of nowhere, but this was always connected with a 'parallel universe' theory. How did this/these universe(s) come about in the first place? And by the way, the universe tends to entropy - disorder - not order. Enthalphy is not the same thing as order.

I've also read that because of the energy equilibrium in the universe, theoretically, there has to be 'white holes' to counterbalance 'black holes'. So, in theory, somewhere out there is a hole pumping out carbon and hydrogen and oak tables and ceramic figurines. This universe is just fucking weird.

Life is hard to enough without worrying about the big questions. In a way, I kinda don't want to know what created the universe. The answer could be really disappointing.

lowkeysteve, enthalpy is the universe utilizing the energitics of disorder to build-up. The universe tends towards entropy as we see it because we are products of enthalpy. Life itself goes against the trend towards entropy. Nothing IS something. it is an issue of perspective.
You also, ask "what created the universe?" Implying that a "creator" must have "created" the universe. However, the universe could have always existed as residue or a result of the fluxes between entropy and enthalpy. You attempt to define the trends of our universe in its current state, but you must think of opposing forces. Order and disorder are independent mechanisms with directionality. At equalibrium they would in-effect cancel each other out. But we are products of a universe where the scale is tipped. Yes, lowkeysteve, OUR universe tends towards entropy or disorder. Again relative towards are point of perception.

[KneeKnee]

The question, of course, is: what did the universe come from?




Just to be the one to say it...

Howard invented the universe. Hoo Hoo!

Ill be back for my real answer(opinion) tomorrow, when I am not so tired...

[zagman76]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553380168/qid=1132041272/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-3877307-5187253?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I highly recommend it. Read it in 8th grade.

[jazzcock]

It's a good read.
check out Macfarlands "Quantum Evolution".
read it during syngamy.

[KantSpelGi]

heavy stuff, I think these guys started the first thread on this topic.

Timaeus
Plato (ca. 360 BC).

I like the bill Hicks quote,works for me.

[turdfrgsn]

PS: No, I have not been smoking pot.

liar whore liar whore and you KNOW IT :action-sm

[BruceKellysJunk]

Think of the movie Back to the Future. At the end, Marty travels back to the Hill Valley Mall to witness himself leaving in the time machine and the doc being shot by the terrorists. In essence, Marty is in a time loop and no matter what, there is always going to be 2 versions of him at this time. The one that witnesses the delorean leaving, and the one driving it. This will keep happening over and over since the version of him that travels back in time will eventually end up back at the mall watching him leave.


Now imagine a type of singularity, much like the one that the Big Bang theory is based off of. This singularity could also be in a time loop like was previously stated where it would be like an "O" shape. At the top of the O, we will say it is the present time t=0. As we move to the right along the loop, time passes. At the bottom of the loop, we will say that t=1 and we are 1 unit into the future from where we started. Upon returning to the top of the loop, we suddenly find ourselves at t=0 again (much like the way that Marty found himself back at the mall in the end of the movie).

We continue following this patter and return to each point in the loop over and over unless something disrupts the process. Now we look back at the idea that the object in this loop is a singularity. Hawking and others have proved that quantum tunnelling can occur from a singularity at which point the matter escaping would begin to expand greatly (imagine the big bang; all the crap in the universe in a tiny point expands to what we see today), thus creating our universe as we know it.

Now comes the important part regarding the time loop. Imagine that at t=1.5 (the left side of the loop), this tunnelling occurs. This would be similar to the letter that Marty gives the doc in 1955 telling him he will be shot in 1985. This universe tunnels and escapes from the loop and time continues to pass forward, never returning to t=0 again. We live in this universe and looking back, we can only see to the point where t=1.5, since that is when we were created. Returning to the loop, we could view this time as t=-0.5 from the top of the loop since time is relative. So supposing that the singularity was created at some point in the time loop clockwise from t=-0.5 or t=1.5, it technically was created in the future, then circled around until it tunnelled.

What I am basically trying to say is that it is possible that the universe created itself in the future then passed backwards through time and became what it is today. My description here is not close to what I was trying to express, but theres much more about it if you look up self-creating universes and bubble universes.

I know I probably look insane now, but check out "time travel in Einstein's univese" by J. Richard Gott for more.

[NikDaSchwugie]

BKJ, that post reminded me of the crazed conversations I had after I saw Terminator 2.

"So, John Connor saved the world and now there's no war, but he never sent his father back, so he couldn't be born, so he didn't save the world, and now there's a war...etc, etc."

To bring this back on topic, I personally believe in ID but I would never demand it be taught in schools.

Another good book on the subject (and a few other interesting things) is Did Adam and Eve Have Navels? (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393049639/102-9930876-1106551?v=glance) by Martin Gardner.

[ShaunC1000]

I've thought about why anything exists at all. I mean even if you believe there is a God who created all matter in the universe, why does God even exist in the first place? Why does anything have to exist at all?

[JoeyDVDZ]

I can't speak to the existence of God, but I can say that all matter and energy in the universe, this one and whatever others may exist, is all the same stuff. There's theoretically no reason why I shouldn't be able to pass my arm through the table I'm sitting at as easily as I pass it through the air. When it all comes down to the brass tacks, my arm, the air, the table, every single thing, is all the same stuff. Weird thought, huh?

[judoGTI]

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org) Explains it all

[JoeyDVDZ]

Wow.... BKJ, just read your post, and I absolutely love it. The big bang happening somewhere in the future rocks! It would explain why we can't find the cause of it, as it hasn't happened yet from our perspective. Nicely done!

[Jim Beam]

I read a great short story once (i'll post it once I find it) about how this is all one big cycle. The universe reached entropy, all matter and energy was equalized everywhere, then BANG and it all started again.

[NikDaSchwugie]

I read a great short story once (i'll post it once I find it) about how this is all one big cycle. The universe reached entropy, all matter and energy was equalized everywhere, then BANG and it all started again.
Douglas Adams was right after all!

I'm founding the Church of Prefect.

[JoeyDVDZ]

So that would mean that 42 is the answer to life, the universe and everything.... kinda makes you think, doesn't it?

[Tommy Ceez]

I read a great short story once (i'll post it once I find it) about how this is all one big cycle. The universe reached entropy, all matter and energy was equalized everywhere, then BANG and it all started again.

And when did this START?

[NikDaSchwugie]

It makes more sense than God creating the world in six literal days.

[Jim Beam]

And when did this START?

I dont know I didnt write the story

but my guess would be that there is no beggining or end the way we conceive it, it's an endless loop. that's my answer, we can never discover the beginning of time because there is no start or end. kind of like the way the human mind cannot grasp it's own eventual nonexistance, we also cannot grasp that time is truely a loop

[Diceman Cometh]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553380168/qid=1132041272/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-3877307-5187253?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I highly recommend it. Read it in 8th grade.

I also read it in 8th grade....I understood most of it, too, which is something I'm proud of.

[crescentwrench]

Something comes from nothing all the time. there have been numerous observations of uncaused subatomic particles generating inside particle accelerators, essentially something from nothing.

Long and complicated (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/uncaused.html)

[jazzcock]

Something comes from nothing all the time. there have been numerous observations of uncaused subatomic particles generating inside particle accelerators, essentially something from nothing.

Long and complicated (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/uncaused.html)

You are correct sir!

[Glenn Dandy]

YOUR CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Glenn Dandy might as well be Jesus Christ himself!


Ohhh, n yeah im drunk. But it still dont mean shit, except sober i could answer better.

If you believe in a god, You'r basicly a Douche.

So dont blow yourselves up trying to prove me wrong.

I have no need to theorize, its figured out, mkay.


Grow some balls and realize .... " When your DEAD you'r DEAD! Cheat on your wife go ahead. Gods not gonna kick you'r ass.

My Flock meets at the bar every Saturday.

[[US]lowkeysteve]

lowkeysteve, enthalpy is the universe utilizing the energitics of disorder to build-up. The universe tends towards entropy as we see it because we are products of enthalpy.

Okay, enthalpy is NOT the opposite of entropy.

Here's the definition from wikipedia:
"Enthalpy (symbolized H, also called heat content) is the sum of the internal energy of matter and the product of its volume multiplied by the pressure. Enthalpy is a quantifiable state function, and the total enthalpy of a system cannot be measured directly; the enthalpy change of a system is measured instead. Enthalpy is a thermodynamic potential, and is useful particularly for nearly-constant pressure process, where any energy input to the system must go into internal energy or the mechanical work of expanding the system. For a simple system, with a constant number of particles, the difference in enthalpy is the maximum amount of thermal energy derivable from a thermodynamic process in which the initial and final states are at the same pressure."

The universe does not utilize the 'energitics' of disorder to build-up. That's why Boron ionizes at a lower ionization energy than Beryllium. It's easier to break down than it is to build up. Easier to lose electrons than it is to arrange and gain electrons.

Here's another example, when you burn wood, you get carbon from the wood and heat. That heat is entropy, disorder, that heat dissipates eventually and doesn't 'build up' anything.

[lucky]

Start as a singularity smaller then the period at the end of this sentence.

It's all relative.


Or then again maybe it's just means a single relative.

[Glenn Dandy]

My aunt is single.

[lucky]

Why so am I

[ampm24]

I belive that every black hole in our universe is a potential big bang. Think of the universe as a bundled up piece of fabric. Somewhere on that fabric a pile of mass collects to the point were it gets so heavy in one point (the singularity) that it rips the fabric and falls through. That results in a big bang. A new universe is created. I also believe that that there are multipul universes contained in a bigger universe and so on and so on. Just like there are multipule planets in a solar system and multipule solar systems in a galexy and multiple galexys in a universe. No because of this constant moving of the bunched up fabric, it's possible to jump from one part of the universe to another using the tunneling effect. It would also go to say that maybe matter can't be created or distroyed. Just moved from one place to another. When those subatomic particles just show up, maybe enough energy was collected and concentrated in a singularity causing a very brief instance where the fabric was opened just enough to let some matter from another universe through. This is normaly a several hour conversation for me so i'll stop here. Time to go watch Stargate.:icon_mrgr

Oh and what if CAT spelt dog. And another thing. What is physics and all these rules we come up with. Who the hell are we to decide the rules of a thing we have no rule over. Some person says matter can't be created or distroyed and we have to go by that? Who said our perception of space is even valid. Who says and inch is an inch and that blue for me is the same color it appears as to you. We just both know it as blue no matter what it looks like. It's all perception.

[Jim Beam]

Who says and inch is an inch and that blue for me is the same color it appears as to you. We just both know it as blue no matter what it looks like. It's all perception.

i've wondered about that for along time now. we all know the grass is green, because we were taught that that color we're seeing in called "green". but who's to say that what I see as green doesnt look like red to you? but you were taught that that color is called "green"

[DoughBoy]

What if dog was really spelld cat?

[lucky]

What if dog was really spelld cat?



Or even get this. What if cat was spelled dog.

[ampm24]

I can still give myself a headache. :icon_mrgr

[jazzcock]

lowkeysteve']Okay, enthalpy is NOT the opposite of entropy.

Here's the definition from wikipedia:
"Enthalpy (symbolized H, also called heat content) is the sum of the internal energy of matter and the product of its volume multiplied by the pressure. Enthalpy is a quantifiable state function, and the total enthalpy of a system cannot be measured directly; the enthalpy change of a system is measured instead. Enthalpy is a thermodynamic potential, and is useful particularly for nearly-constant pressure process, where any energy input to the system must go into internal energy or the mechanical work of expanding the system. For a simple system, with a constant number of particles, the difference in enthalpy is the maximum amount of thermal energy derivable from a thermodynamic process in which the initial and final states are at the same pressure."

The universe does not utilize the 'energitics' of disorder to build-up. That's why Boron ionizes at a lower ionization energy than Beryllium. It's easier to break down than it is to build up. Easier to lose electrons than it is to arrange and gain electrons.

Here's another example, when you burn wood, you get carbon from the wood and heat. That heat is entropy, disorder, that heat dissipates eventually and doesn't 'build up' anything.

Exactly, life not the universe utilizes the energetics of disorder to build-up. I was not talking about the universe "building-up" anything. It is not energetically feasable for it to do so. However, (life) we are part of the universe so we must include these physical process when asking the question about the design of the universe.

[Turtle]

I had a prof at Duke talk about this one fine day. I' didn't give a shit so I didn't pay much attention but I think his theory was something like this.

Black Hole-event horizon-singularity-Big Bang-universe.

[mikeybot]

There was a NOVA episode last year on string theory and one of the ideas that is being put out by people involved in it is that the big bang is the result of two string dimensions colliding.
It was a year ago so I really don't remember more of the particulars.

[AnimalMthr1982]

Trippy thread, who has read "A Wrinkle in Time"?

[Fruit Monkey]

diceman u have been watching alot of discoveray lately they did a big piece on it last night
........................... big bang theory............................................ ..
earth was a molten mess .. then billions of years ago was hit my a comet..not a meteor cause comets are made of water ,,and as we all know water is the start of life...

sorry god didnt say let there be light.. just didnt happen .. molten mass = baby earth ..large comet frozen chunk of space shit ....make a planet like ours ... only thing still left is the ozone layer our shield that makes us ....some say our core is like a reactor and thats the "exhaust of it" ..... my idea we are the luckiest planet out there im sure there is an earth out there ...either self destructed = us in the future,,, or they got some freaky dinos walking around = us millions of years ago ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, chances of 2 planets being at similar time line of evolution?? i think just aint gonna happen ..............



i wanna add to this if i may

..... here is one for Wiffle bat lube

if we are evolved from say some kind of spec of dust to rats to monkeys to cave man to us now ................. what will humans look like say 1 million years from now ??????????

im going large headed more one color type '''''''''' my reason

more and more interacial marriage etc will cause at some point a huge melting pot... yes the entire mongral race thing .. large heads why,,, because we learned how to use more of our brains ............. and we will us more brain power ,,then strength ............... remember we only use 10% now imagen if we used 30% i think they proved einstien used 12% i use about 2% so ignore my typos

[Diceman Cometh]

The better the medical field gets, the more "weak", sick, or mentally slow people will not "die off" like nature normally kills them off. Human evolution has pretty much grinded to a near-halt because of medical advances.

Unless you wanna start killing stupid people, or ban them from breeding.