Jesus Walked On Ice, Not Water

[CM Mark]

Okay, lett the bible thumpers amongst us shoot this down.
MIAMI (Reuters) - The New Testament says that Jesus walked on water, but a Florida university professor believes there could be a less miraculous explanation -- he walked on a floating piece of ice.

Professor Doron Nof also theorized in the early 1990s that Moses's parting of the Red Sea had solid science behind it.

Nof, a professor of oceanography at Florida State University, said on Tuesday that his study found an unusual combination of water and atmospheric conditions in what is now northern Israel could have led to ice formation on the Sea of Galilee.

Nof used records of the Mediterranean Sea's surface temperatures and statistical models to examine the dynamics of the Sea of Galilee, which Israelis know now as Lake Kinneret.

The study found that a period of cooler temperatures in the area between 1,500 and 2,600 years ago could have included the decades in which Jesus lived.

A drop in temperature below freezing could have caused ice thick enough to support a human to form on the surface of the freshwater lake near the western shore, Nof said. It might have been nearly impossible for distant observers to see a piece of floating ice surrounded by water.

Nof said he offered his study -- published in the April edition of the Journal of Paleolimnology -- as a "possible explanation" for Jesus' walk on water.

"If you ask me if I believe someone walked on water, no, I don't," Nof said. "Maybe somebody walked on the ice, I don't know. I believe that something natural was there that explains it."

"We leave to others the question of whether or not our research explains the biblical account."

When he offered his theory 14 years ago that wind and sea conditions could explain the parting of the Red Sea, Nof said he received some hate mail, even though he noted that the idea could support the biblical description of the event.

And as his theory of Jesus' walk on ice began to circulate, he had more hate mail in his e-mail inbox.

"They asked me if I'm going to try next to explain the resurrection," he said.

[abudabit]

It's hard to imagine the middle east getting that cold.

Anyways, maybe just maybe the stories in the bible are just stories. Not even things which you need to heavily investigate the science behind them. If I were a founding member of a cult, I would make shit up.

[ShooterMcGavin]

I'm an Atheist, but if I remember correctly, didn't the other guy walk on water as he was looking at the J-man, and then look down and sink in a Yosemite Sam fashion?

So the ice cracked around that guy? I don't get it.

[YourAmishDaddy]

These damn university professors have way too much time on their hands. From fucking Ward Churchill, to that nitwit black professor who says all white people fear black sexual prowess. It's insane.

[novalia]

oh crap another religion thread...
/me breaks out the kevlar

[novalia]

who says all white people fear black sexual prowess. It's insane.

it is? oh wait yeah.. its insane!

[YourAmishDaddy]

Haha.

[usadingo]

Shooter has it right. Peter walked out on the water when Jesus called to him, and then started to sink when he looked away. Also, Peter stepped out of A BOAT to walk over to him.
I live in Minnesota. People don't have their boats out when the water is frozen over.

[BravoSierra]

Alright, let me get this straight. A fucking guy with a PhD feels the need to prove that a PERSON didn't walk on water? You guys ever tried walking on water? Don't care who your dad is, it aint happening. One type of lizzard and some insects can do it.... that's it. I honestly can't believe some people believe this shit.

[abudabit]

Alright, let me get this straight. A fucking guy with a PhD feels the need to prove that a PERSON didn't walk on water? You guys ever tried walking on water? Don't care who your dad is, it aint happening. One type of lizzard and some insects can do it.... that's it. I honestly can't believe some people believe this shit.

But it was in a 1800 year old book! It has to be true!

[grail]

People walk on ice all the time up here... even drive out on it. I won't, because I'm scared. However, stupid people are sending this stupid professor hate mail because he tried to explain something with science.

Novalia that new avatar makes me dizzy and horny at the same time. Thanks.

[MJMANDALAY]

Kinda nuts to get into this, its like debating Mother Goose stories all are Fairy Tales, but interesting reading.
This is the type of thread that make the rule no member bashing a good rule.

[Leslie Anne]

Well I'm a believer. Call me what you want, I don't really care, but I sleep better at night believing that there is a higher power that loves me and watches out for me. When I do pass on, if there isn't a heaven then it won't hurt me either way, right? Sometimes that little light of faith can bring people greater peace than any Ph.D could have ever given...just my .02 cents worth....

carry on...

[mikeybot]

Bible = facts as correct in a game of telephone.

[Diceman Cometh]

Well I'm a believer. Call me what you want, I don't really care, but I sleep better at night believing that there is a higher power that loves me and watches out for me. When I do pass on, if there isn't a heaven then it won't hurt me either way, right? Sometimes that little light of faith can bring people greater peace than any Ph.D could have ever given...just my .02 cents worth....

carry on...

In the later stages of my religiosity, I felt the same way - I just didn't want to NOT believe. But my intellectual integrity got the better of me. I couldn't lie to myself anymore, no matter how depressing the truth might be.

You might want to consider trying the same thing - being honest with yourself. Take it from me, I thought facing the truth would be depressing...but it actually turned out to be quite liberating. Pardon the shitty cliche, but the truth shall set you free.

[FANDICK]

In the later stages of my religiosity, I felt the same way - I just didn't want to NOT believe. But my intellectual integrity got the better of me. I couldn't lie to myself anymore, no matter how depressing the truth might be.

You might want to consider trying the same thing - being honest with yourself. Take it from me, I thought facing the truth would be depressing...but it actually turned out to be quite liberating. Pardon the shitty cliche, but the truth shall set you free.

Bravo, sir!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[novalia]

trivializing someone's beliefs is wrong :/

[tattered]

In the later stages of my religiosity, I felt the same way - I just didn't want to NOT believe. But my intellectual integrity got the better of me. I couldn't lie to myself anymore, no matter how depressing the truth might be.

You might want to consider trying the same thing - being honest with yourself. Take it from me, I thought facing the truth would be depressing...but it actually turned out to be quite liberating. Pardon the shitty cliche, but the truth shall set you free.

agreed....except that happened to me when i was 13..........but i was a lil brighter then your average 13yr old....i just was bored with school so i never tried.....graduated w/honors from college though.....go figure

[Coffee Diva]

Maybe Jesus dog-paddled.

[TrybalRage]

In the later stages of my religiosity, I felt the same way - I just didn't want to NOT believe. But my intellectual integrity got the better of me. I couldn't lie to myself anymore, no matter how depressing the truth might be.

You might want to consider trying the same thing - being honest with yourself. Take it from me, I thought facing the truth would be depressing...but it actually turned out to be quite liberating. Pardon the shitty cliche, but the truth shall set you free.

Funny. The older I get, the stronger my faith does.

[usadingo]

Bible = facts as correct in a game of telephone.
Assuming that translations are based off translations and not manuscripts, which unfortunately, they're not.

[BravoSierra]

Maybe Jesus was the Chris Angel of his day. Seriously, if Chris Angel can levetate people on tv and make it LOOK like he's actually doing it, he can probably make it look like he's walking on water. Jesus was just ahead of his time.

[ShooterMcGavin]

trivializing someone's beliefs is wrong :/

But you do realize that religion is stunting technological advancement in medicine.

Stem cell research for example...we could have the cure for AIDS if it wasn't for the Jews.

Well, it isn't the Jews' fault, it's the Christians'. I just love blaming everything on the Jews.

[d0uche_n0zzle]

A Jew engaged in some sort of fraud, never. :icon_mrgr

[fothermucker]

Well I'm a believer. Call me what you want, I don't really care, but I sleep better at night believing that there is a higher power that loves me and watches out for me. When I do pass on, if there isn't a heaven then it won't hurt me either way, right? Sometimes that little light of faith can bring people greater peace than any Ph.D could have ever given...just my .02 cents worth....

carry on...
You should read more Freud. It might ring some bells for you.

[Sutsu]

I just find it funny that people are constantly trying to prove how fake the bible is, whether it be the scientific reasons for the Red Sea parting or Jesus walking on 'ice' water. If it was so obviously bull, why even bother paying attention to it?

BTW, not all religious folk think science is the devil. God (allegedly) gave people a brain, no reason not to use it responsibly.

[caniseeyourtaint]

I can't remember the source, as it was years ago...but one theory (if you can use that word to describe explaining fiction anyways) is that the language of the day translates differently. 'Walking on water' could have been describing jesus walking OVER water on a pier. Again...can't remember the source, but like it was mentioned earlier in the thread...its a centuries long game of telephone through a whole slew of languages and civilizations.

[droogie]

It only a matter of time before some fanatics blow his office now.

[CM Mark]

I just find it funny that people are constantly trying to prove how fake the bible is, whether it be the scientific reasons for the Red Sea parting or Jesus walking on 'ice' water. If it was so obviously bull, why even bother paying attention to it?

BTW, not all religious folk think science is the devil. God (allegedly) gave people a brain, no reason not to use it responsibly.

Well, if the bible really is true, then explain this to me.

How can there be necklaces with true pieces of the cross because the wood lasted so long, yet the wood from Noah's Ark can't be found because "It's so old it rotted away."?

[Diceman Cometh]

Assuming that translations are based off translations and not manuscripts, which unfortunately, they're not.

Read the book "Misquoting Jesus" and try to say that with a straight face.

(it was written by a former evangelical by the way)

[Diceman Cometh]

Well, if the bible really is true, then explain this to me.

How can there be necklaces with true pieces of the cross because the wood lasted so long, yet the wood from Noah's Ark can't be found because "It's so old it rotted away."?

That doesn't make any sense dude. First of all, Noah's Ark (if it did exist) is about 3,000 years older than the True Cross....2nd, the Ark was in contact with water....lots of water. 3rd, it's not so much that its rotted away, it's that it's supposed to have settled on top of a mountain (Ararat), so its hard to find.

But that doesn't even have anything to do with the Bible's validity anyway.


I just find it funny that people are constantly trying to prove how fake the bible is, whether it be the scientific reasons for the Red Sea parting or Jesus walking on 'ice' water. If it was so obviously bull, why even bother paying attention to it?

BTW, not all religious folk think science is the devil. God (allegedly) gave people a brain, no reason not to use it responsibly.

Because religious Christians vote, and therefore, their beliefs directly influence this country's government, policies, and laws....everything from foreign policy, to abortion, stem cell research, education, prostitution, pronography, drug laws, alchohol sale regulation, etc.

This is why many atheists/agnostics feel it is important to challenge any religious person who is willing to debate them - because their religiosity is the basis for the way they vote and lobby.

Same goes for Christians...if I were a fundamentalist Christian, and I firmly believe that abortion (even in the 1st trimester) is murder, its not like I can, in good conscience, just say to myself "oh well, I believe what I believe, but if non-religious people want to have abortions, I'm fine with it - I'll just pray for the unborn." If you really believe abortion is murder, it is your moral DUTY to stop those murders, isn't it? That is why I cannot really blame religious Christians for being so militant about not allowing abortions - if they feel its murder, of course they wouldn't allow other people to do it.

[Digital_Trauma]

The study found that a period of cooler temperatures in the area between 1,500 and 2,600 years ago could have included the decades in which Jesus lived.
.
those damn 1499-1489BC model Chevy Suburbans "globally warmed" the area, thus exposing the Son of God as a fraud. :action-sm

[Swamp CAve]

Well, if the bible really is true, then explain this to me.

How can there be necklaces with true pieces of the cross because the wood lasted so long, yet the wood from Noah's Ark can't be found because "It's so old it rotted away."?

the people who have the cross Jesus was crucified on are called liars; either that or noah used the ark as firewood after the flood because all the trees were destroyed and stuff.

[Baby Evil]

Jesus walking on water occured directly after the feeding of the five thousand. I find it odd that people would hang out in the freezing cold to hear anyone speak. Also Jesus walked on water in the midst of a storm. In the original greek text the phrase used was "peripatouva epi tes thalasses." Which means "walking" upon the sea, and is used in such a way to indicate a supernatural event.

Also the weather evidence that was found can be debunked by this:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/MediaAlerts/2002/2002111410898.html
Which shows that there is a 2000 year pattern with the El Nino weather cycle. This cycle started in 1993, and in using past weather to predict current weather, this shows that it is most likely that since weather patterns effect the entire world, and these are cyclical patterns, it is VERY logical to think that the weather experienced the Middle East 2000 years ago (which, oddly enough, is the agreed upon time of Christ) is very close to or identical to what is being experienced today.

[Baby Evil]

You should read more Freud. It might ring some bells for you.

Yeah Freud had it all right. Now excuse me as I go strangle my father while mom blows me. :icon_conf

edit: This was post number 666, and in a religious thread...who cares.

[novalia]

But you do realize that religion is stunting technological advancement in medicine.

Stem cell research for example...we could have the cure for AIDS if it wasn't for the Jews.

Well, it isn't the Jews' fault, it's the Christians'. I just love blaming everything on the Jews.

you quoted me so i quoted you back although your statements are irrevelant to my post... i didnt state my beliefs one way or the other so your lecture is lost on me... i was responding to the fellas that said "being honest with yourself" and "the truth shall set you free" as if there is any logic at all in religion.. it is a belief system based on faith... these statements in quotes i refer to are trivializing said faith...

fwiw i am not into religion or god even after being brought up catholic and going to a jesuit college...

[Diceman Cometh]

you quoted me so i quoted you back although your statements are irrevelant to my post... i didnt state my beliefs one way or the other so your lecture is lost on me... i was responding to the fellas that said "being honest with yourself" and "the truth shall set you free" as if there is any logic at all in religion.. it is a belief system based on faith... these statements in quotes i refer to are trivializing said faith...

fwiw i am not into religion or god even after being brought up catholic and going to a jesuit college...

Fundamentalist Christians would disagree with you - they will tell you that the Bible is 100% fact, that the Son of God walked on the Earth (and not in a metaphorical sense), and told us what He wants us to do with our lives, what is right, and what is wrong.

Our quarrel is with them, not those who interpret the Bible as a metaphorical moral guide.

[novalia]

i dont really care dude... someone came on here and was sincere and polite and you trivialized his faith... not everyone is a fundamentalist...

[RobeSoup&Tears]

A better explanation uses Quantum Physics as the answer to how it was done…seriously.

[novalia]

string theory =)

[Diceman Cometh]

i dont really care dude... someone came on here and was sincere and polite and you trivialized his faith... not everyone is a fundamentalist...

I was extremely polite.

It's called debating. Don't take it so personally.

[Baby Evil]

string theory =)

I prefer ladder theory :action-sm

[HockeyHelmet]

That guys name was 'Nof' HA

[sclone]

you quoted me so i quoted you back although your statements are irrevelant to my post... i didnt state my beliefs one way or the other so your lecture is lost on me... i was responding to the fellas that said "being honest with yourself" and "the truth shall set you free" as if there is any logic at all in religion.. it is a belief system based on faith... these statements in quotes i refer to are trivializing said faith...

fwiw i am not into religion or god even after being brought up catholic and going to a jesuit college...

Your post seemed like a general reply to the topic, and I took it as questioning the validity of the bible is "trivializing someone's faith." So Diceman's comments were completely relevant to yours.

But hey, I think the more faith trivialized the better, so I guess I'm biased. Fucking bullshit religions.

[The Sarge]

Yet another attempt from some self-important teacher to prentend he's an authority on anything.

[sclone]

Yet another attempt from some self-important teacher to prentend he's an authority on anything.

I'm dying for an explanation.

[The Sarge]

I'm dying for an explanation.

Keep dying then. This whole discussion is a moot point. I'll believe Jesus walked on water, before I believe anything knowledgable came out of Florida.

[novalia]

Your post seemed like a general reply to the topic, and I took it as questioning the validity of the bible is "trivializing someone's faith." So Diceman's comments were completely relevant to yours.


wrong.. try again..

its so easy to be lazy isnt it?
all you had to do was read but you screwed that up.

[sclone]

wrong.. try again..

its so easy to be lazy isnt it?
all you had to do was read but you screwed that up.

Um, what the fuck are you talking about?

You replied generally. You didn't direct it toward any one post. How the fuck do you expect anyone to know who your comments are directed toward?

[sclone]

Keep dying then.

Guess that's what I should have expected.

I love people who blindly label all intellectuals as opportunists.

[The Sarge]

Guess that's what I should have expected.

I love people who blindly label all intellectuals as opportunists.

Taking one part of a quote and magnifying it is a bad habit. Read and heed in context. You'll know that my attitude wasn't aimed at you dying. Eh, what does it matter. We just disagree. I just don't believe everything I read, because some Professor is bored. Another case of a SLOW NEWS DAY.

[sclone]

I guess I should have anticipated you would edit your comment after I replied.

[The Sarge]

I guess I should have anticipated you would edit your comment after I replied.

Here's the deal: This professor is just making THEORIES. That's all. He has NO FACTS. Read the article again. Plus what was entailed with the "study"? Going back in time? The Nof guy has nothing. I've been to 5 different Middle Eastern countries. It DOES get cold. It DOESN'T get cold enough to cause huge chunks of Ice to form, like this Professor is theorizing.

It's just a common geographical error. We all make 'em. This professor is no different than you or I.

[Diceman Cometh]

Here's the deal: This professor is just making THEORIES. That's all. He has NO FACTS. Read the article again. Plus what was entailed with the "study"? Going back in time? The Nof guy has nothing. I've been to 5 different Middle Eastern countries. It DOES get cold. It DOESN'T get cold enough to cause huge chunks of Ice to form, like this Professor is theorizing.

It's just a common geographical error. We all make 'em. This professor is no different than you or I.


Actually, as much as I think this professor's theory is stupid just for the fact that I'm sure someone would have seen the ice sheet under his feet, and it wouldn't explain his other miracles, I've read a little about agricultural patterns in the ancient / pre-historic world, and the mid-east was definately significantly cooler during Jesus' time than it is today. If it's currently cold enough to snow in Israel every once in a great while, well, a few degrees cooler and you might get some ice.

I don't think Jesus walked on water....not because he walked on ice, but because the whole episode was a myth, just like his other miracles.

But your "did he go back in time?" comment is ridiculous. Did archaelogists go back in time in order to discover the previous existence of dinosaurs? Did historians go back in time to understand the growth of native american civilizations, or the conquests of nomadic aryans in the 4th millenium BC into India?

By the way, novalia, precisely what did I say to "belittle" anyone's religion other than talk about holes in biblical history?

[Furtherman]

Anyways, maybe just maybe the stories in the bible are just stories. Not even things which you need to heavily investigate the science behind them. If I were a founding member of a cult, I would make shit up.

Every religion out there started that way - making shit up to explain things. Once early man figured out tools, our brains evolved into basic cause and effect thinking. "I do this, then this happens... but why?" The 'gods' came in by filling in that gap in our primitive conscience, simply, it's just easier to think "it is god's will". It give a false purporse, that taken at its basic level, really causes no harm. Unfortunately, that basic level disappeared long ago and it's hard to be born anywhere in the world without religious lies planted on our impressionable minds, only to take root. Then again, you can't help where you are born, so there is a very good chance that your religion is the wrong one and everyone else is right.

[usadingo]

Read the book "Misquoting Jesus" and try to say that with a straight face.

(it was written by a former evangelical by the way)
Read C.S. Lewis. (he was a former Atheist by the way)

Point is, you can find writings on both sides of the issue. What I know though is that there are over 5,000 original manuscripts in existance by which all modern tranlastions such as the NIV, RSV, etc are taken from. Contrary to what a lot of people think, there wasn't some English translation years ago that someone made a different translation from. Then that translation was used for another. So on and so on.

Maybe Jesus was the Chris Angel of his day. Seriously, if Chris Angel can levetate people on tv and make it LOOK like he's actually doing it, he can probably make it look like he's walking on water. Jesus was just ahead of his time.
That reminds me, have you heard his music when he was working with Klay Scott (a.k.a. Scott Alber, now Celldweller)? Awesome stuff. Celldweller puts out some great industrial stuff underground now days. His oldest stuff was with Circle of Dust, who started out in the "Christian" music industry.

[The Sarge]

But your "did he go back in time?" comment is ridiculous. Did archaelogists go back in time in order to discover the previous existence of dinosaurs? Did historians go back in time to understand the growth of native american civilizations, or the conquests of nomadic aryans in the 4th millenium BC into India?




Existence of animals, cities, Biblical prophets are PROVEN by Archeology; however, ice forming in a sea...not proven in archeology.

I'm with you, though. Except I believe in God and the Bible (King James version).

So, I'll say..."I find your lack of faith is disappointing" **slowly raises hand to choke without touching** (the Force thing.....I stink.)

[Furtherman]

Existence of animals, cities, Biblical prophets are PROVEN by Archeology;

Animals, yep. Cities, of course! Bibical prophets... wait... what?

Did we find Moses' bowling ball?

There is no evidence of bibical prophets except in stories.

In fact, one of Israel's premiere archaeologists, Zeev Herzog, says there was no exodus from Egypt, Joshua didn't bring down the walls of Jerico, and Solomon's kingdom was a small, tribal dynasty.

Archaeological findings do not support and in many cases directly contradict Biblical stories.

Myths. Just the same as the Roman and Greek gods, whose followers knew no better than any one believing in any god today.

[Diceman Cometh]

Existence of animals, cities, Biblical prophets are PROVEN by Archeology; however, ice forming in a sea...not proven in archeology.

I'm with you, though. Except I believe in God and the Bible (King James version).

So, I'll say..."I find your lack of faith is disappointing" **slowly raises hand to choke without touching** (the Force thing.....I stink.)

What Furthman said.

One of the biggest blows to my faith was when I read that archaelogists have found NO PROOF of the Exodus from Egypt. 4o years in a relatively small desert, and not a single shred of a mass exodus, or even a small one. There is no Egyptian army at the bottom of the Red Sea....in fact, there is no mention of a large Israelite slave population in ancient Egypt - and the Egyptians kept excellent records, especially of civic projects, which is exactly what slaves would be involved in.

Further, there is no proof that Moses existed - in fact, his story (along with the Exodus) is a rehashing of an old Syrian myth.

And here's the kicker - the Bible was supposedly given to Moses at Mount Sinai in the 14th century BC. However, the Hebrew alphabet, as it is used in the Bible, wasn't even in existence until the 7th century BC - 700 years AFTER the Bible was supposedly written.

The archaelogy you trumpet so much has been a major force in destroying the bible's credibility as a historical source.

Read C.S. Lewis. (he was a former Atheist by the way)

1) Lewis was a fucking Literature professor at Oxford, not a scientist. His arguments were almost exclusively philosophical arguments for God.

2) I have read him - and every other author that I thought could help me hold on to my faith.

Point is, you can find writings on both sides of the issue.

Only problem is, you seem to find a HUGELY disproportionate amount of scientific writings discrediting the Bible. In fact, you really don't find any at all favoring the bible's accuracy - at least nothing favoring Creationism, Intelligent Design, the Flood, or Adam and Eve. Not in any peer-reviewed scientific journals you don't.

What I know though is that there are over 5,000 original manuscripts in existance by which all modern tranlastions such as the NIV, RSV, etc are taken from.

Not a single one of those manuscripts go back further than 100 years AFTER the death of Jesus...and the oldest gospel wasn't written until at least 70 years after Jesus' death.

Furthermore, there are OTHER gospels out there that are even older than the "offical," church-approved gospels, and were written much closer to Jesus' death...gospels that do not paint Jesus as divine in any way. Yet you choose to ignore those, for some reason.

Also, if those translations you speak of are so accurate, how do you explain the countless mistranslations and additions talked about in that book I told you. Have you even read the book? I suggest you do. I can recommend about 11 others.

[The Sarge]

Animals, yep. Cities, of course! Bibical prophets... wait... what?

Did we find Moses' bowling ball?

There is no evidence of bibical prophets except in stories.

In fact, one of Israel's premiere archaeologists, Zeev Herzog, says there was no exodus from Egypt, Joshua didn't bring down the walls of Jerico, and Solomon's kingdom was a small, tribal dynasty.

Archaeological findings do not support and in many cases directly contradict Biblical stories.

Myths. Just the same as the Roman and Greek gods, whose followers knew no better than any one believing in any god today.


Au contraire. One of the many prophets, Jeremiah, was proven...coins dated to his timeframe. Check the link

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=136&view=item&idx=661

Archeology DOES support Biblical cities, people, events, etc.

Do you're own research. You'll be surprised. Unless you're satisfied with blindly yappin' that the Bible is false, unproven, made up, etc.

[The Sarge]

And here's the kicker - the Bible was supposedly given to Moses at Mount Sinai in the 14th century BC. However, the Hebrew alphabet, as it is used in the Bible, wasn't even in existence until the 7th century BC - 700 years AFTER the Bible was supposedly written.



The Bible? Check your facts. Moses wasn't given the Gospel then. Nor the Pentateuch (meaning 5 books). The "10 Commandments" were told to him.

Where are you finding this?

[Diceman Cometh]

Au contraire. One of the many prophets, Jeremiah, was proven...coins dated to his timeframe. Check the link

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=136&view=item&idx=661

Archeology DOES support Biblical cities, people, events, etc.

Do you're own research. You'll be surprised. Unless you're satisfied with blindly yappin' that the Bible is false, unproven, made up, etc.

the existence of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc., has been proven, that it true - but proving the existence of those prophets does not prove the validity of the entire bible. It just proves that a person named Jeremiah existed. Does it prove that he spoke to God? Does it prove that he performed any miracles?

Almost no historian will deny the existence of Jesus the man. Neither do I, actually. But that is a far cry from saying he was the son of God, or the myths surrounding his life were real.

Do you believe Mohammad existed? Not a single historian will say that he didn't. Does that automatically mean he spoke to God, or that his Koran is divine? Nope.

And you still haven't addressed the fact that Abraham's, Moses', or Noah's existence cannot be proven, or that there is not a single shred of evidence for the Exodus occuring....or the fact that the Hebrew alphabet didn't exist back then either...or many biblical words, for that matter.

[The Sarge]

Almost no historian will deny the existence of Jesus the man. Neither do I, actually. But that is a far cry from saying he was the son of God, or the myths surrounding his life were real.

Do you believe Mohammad existed? Not a single historian will say that he didn't. Does that automatically mean he spoke to God, or that his Koran is divine? Nope.

And you still haven't addressed the fact that Abraham's, Moses', or Noah's existence cannot be proven, or that there is not a single shred of evidence for the Exodus occuring....or the fact that the Hebrew alphabet didn't exist back then either...or many biblical words, for that matter.


Ahh...First off...about Jesus, being the Son of God. That is where the "faith" comes into play. Nothing will prove or disprove that. It's what the individual believes. You or I can say all we want about that...doesn't matter. We cannot decide for people. Unless you were a warlord in Africa.

Second, are you saying that Israel right now is teaching their children falitical information? Hebrew is a "dead" language right now. Meaning, not spoken as it was in the "oldern days". However, it was spoken and it is being taught now.

There is a VAST amount of history STILL to be proven. We've only scraped the surface, so to speak; just because you, myself or some second-rate professor in Florida think it did/didn't happen doesn't mean it did/didn't. Got that? I almost lost myself in that.

Anyway...wanna know what I think? You and I are better than that professor. It took him YEARS of University education to come up with a theory that can be disproven with SIMPLE Geography. You and I are chattin' this out on a server full of creeps and not paying a CENT for it. Aside the cost of the Internet Connection.

[Furtherman]

Exactly. What Diceman Cometh said.

Seriously - "God" talking to one man, to spread his "word"... follow me, or else. That god has some ego. Which is a human quality. Which would make him a big prick.

Believe what you want, but the only reason you do believe is some kind of god is because it was taught to you at a young age.

[Diceman Cometh]

The Bible? Check your facts. Moses wasn't given the Gospel then. Nor the Pentateuch (meaning 5 books). The "10 Commandments" were told to him.

Where are you finding this?

This statement right here has completely washed away any credibility you have as a knowledable person on the subject.

If your source of biblical knowledge comes from the movie "The Ten Commandments", I suggest you actually pick up the friggen bible and read it, since you are so interested in defending it.

Moses was indeed given the 10 commandments at Sinai....and the entire Pentateuch as well. He had it written down over the course of a few years, immediately after the revelation, while walking around the Sinai desert.

And, going back to the original point, the Hebrew alphabet as used in the Pentauch did not exist until the 7th century....which is when most of it was written. Some of it even later.

[The Sarge]

This statement right here has completely washed away any credibility you have as a knowledable person on the subject.

If your source of biblical knowledge comes from the movie "The Ten Commandments", I suggest you actually pick up the friggen bible and read it, since you are so interested in defending it.




Cute comback.

I was in Seminary for 2 years. I think I know what I'm talking about. Just like you said and admitted to...the 10 commandments were given to him on Sinai. The five books were not given to Moses on Sinai. Was MOSES going to be revealed a story about HIMSELF? Maybe the creation...not the Exodus. He LIVED through that.

[Diceman Cometh]

Second, are you saying that Israel right now is teaching their children falitical information? Hebrew is a "dead" language right now. Meaning, not spoken as it was in the "oldern days". However, it was spoken and it is being taught now.

Hebrew as it is spoken today is extremely similar to the Hebrew spoken in ancient Israel. we currently use the same exact alphabet as was used then. But the language and the alphabet, as used in the Bible, DID NOT EXIST during the supposed revelation at Sinai....it existed almost a thousand years later.

I'm not sure what you mean by Israeli children being taught the wrong info, though. If you're referring to the Exodus, then biblical history is really only taught in religious schools...and every religious school in the world lie to its students, not just in Israel.


There is a VAST amount of history STILL to be proven. We've only scraped the surface, so to speak; just because you, myself or some second-rate professor in Florida think it did/didn't happen doesn't mean it did/didn't. Got that? I almost lost myself in that.

But there is a vast amount that HAS been proven, and verified countless times. And the current evidence gives us no reason whatsoever to believe in the events of the Exodus, Flood, etc., and gives us EVERY reason to NOT believe it. To say that the evidence is still "incomplete enough" to let a rational person believe in the bible is just being intellectually dishonest.

And get over that Florida professor, already....I can name you tens of thousands of other professors that have discredited so many other parts of the bible. for the sake of argument, you can pretend he doesn't exist.

[Diceman Cometh]

Cute comback.

I was in Seminary for 2 years. I think I know what I'm talking about. Just like you said and admitted to...the 10 commandments were given to him on Sinai. The five books were not given to Moses on Sinai. Was MOSES going to be revealed a story about HIMSELF? Maybe the creation...not the Exodus. He LIVED through that.

Dude, stop it right now, because you are burying yourself into a fucking chasm. You obviously do not know what you are talking about. For God's sake, before you type another letter in response, just fucking google it if you don't have a bible handy.

Moses was given the 10 commandments AND the Pentateuch at Sinai....AND the Oral Law, to be more precise.

According to Judaic theology, the Torah actually existed before the beginning of time, along with God. So yes, this whole story was pre-ordained before the creation of the Earth, This theology was actually used by the muslims, who believe that the Koran existed before the Earth did.

[Furtherman]

See how silly it is? C'mon... common sense. Let a little into your life.

[Diceman Cometh]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

Textual origin of the Torah
It has been traditionally assumed that Moses received from God and subsequently transcribed all, or almost all, of the Torah, and this is still the view of most Christians and most of Orthodox Judaism.

[Baby Evil]

Exactly. What Diceman Cometh said.

Seriously - "God" talking to one man, to spread his "word"... follow me, or else. That god has some ego. Which is a human quality. Which would make him a big prick.

Believe what you want, but the only reason you do believe is some kind of god is because it was taught to you at a young age.

No that is incorrect. God didn't just speak to one man. He has spoken to many. There a many writers of the Bible not just one. The Bible is inspired by the holy spirit and delievered to man.

God created man with free will. This is an important concept to understand. While the notion of, as you put it, "Follow me or else" is correct, the idea that it is because of an inflated ego is not. For a brief moment imagine that you believe in an almighty God. God created man for fellowship, and the only way to have true fellowship is to risk having none. God could have created man to have no other thought process, but the one thought of him, but that would be a fake relationship. God wants real realtionships with his most prized creation, and that creation are humans. If God created a world that had nothing but people that were created to do exactly what he had told them to do then people would be there because they had to, and not because they wanted to.

Now the final statement that you made is just obnoxious. Chuck Colson turned his life to Christ late in life (after the Watergate Scandal), as have many others. You and people that believe as you seem to pigeon hole believers as mind numbed robots that are not capable of their own thoughts, and lack intellegence. A little about me...I went to one of the perennial top 10 universities in the country for my Bachelors, and one of the top schools to get my Masters. I don't say this to brag, but rather to say that I have thought this through, and from the things that have had happen to me personally, I can see no reason why I can doubt the Bible. It also seems that most people believe that we are all blindly following people like Pat Robertson and President Bush. Right now both of them make me want to wretch.

The fact that people today are still attacking the Bible like they are show the validity that the book must have. The Bible is attacked ten times more than the Koran. Why is that? More people are afraid that the Bible, and those who believe are going to force them to live their lives differently. People understand that they are going to have to step out of their comfort zones, and most people don't want to do that. Sure I understand that most people don't like Christianity because of the pushy people that believe, but that is a vast minority of believers. It would be like me saying that all atheists want to attack all religion, where that is the minority since most atheists (like many of you) just want to keep to themselves, and live their lives in peace.

[Baby Evil]

Dude, stop it right now, because you are burying yourself into a fucking chasm. You obviously do not know what you are talking about. For God's sake, before you type another letter in response, just fucking google it if you don't have a bible handy.

Moses was given the 10 commandments AND the Pentateuch at Sinai....AND the Oral Law, to be more precise.

According to Judaic theology, the Torah actually existed before the beginning of time, along with God. So yes, this whole story was pre-ordained before the creation of the Earth, This theology was actually used by the muslims, who believe that the Koran existed before the Earth did.

The Sarge is correct. On Sinai Moses was given the Ten Commandments, but you are also correct that the Covenent was given then to, and Isreal agreed with the Covenent, but the Pentateuch was not given then. Later Levitical law was passed down, and Deuteronomy ends with the death of Moses (which is widely believed to be written by Joshua).

[Furtherman]

People "find" chirst late in life usually after some traumatic event. They still knew about christ, because they taught about him when they were young. I'm not attacking the bible, it's a story book - that's all. You want to believe - hey, that is fine - but don't have the illusion that it was written by men inspiried by some spirit. It is a human document, not devine.

Even the conservative jews issued a new torah with commentary. It's called the "Etz Hayim", and it it offers interpretations that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures.

And here are some of the things they comment: Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

People can be well read, sophistacted and knowledgeable about psychology, history, literature, etc... but too many are locked in to the version they were taught as a child. And that version stays with them the rest of their life. It has roots.

The bible doesn't make literal sense with all its contradictions and inconsistencies.

[Leslie Anne]

Who needs Sunday School?! I just got a great biblical surmize in about 10 minutes of reading.

[Baby Evil]

People "find" chirst late in life usually after some traumatic event. They still knew about christ, because they taught about him when they were young. I'm not attacking the bible, it's a story book - that's all. You want to believe - hey, that is fine - but don't have the illusion that it was written by men inspiried by some spirit. It is a human document, not devine.

Even the conservative jews issued a new torah with commentary. It's called the "Etz Hayim", and it it offers interpretations that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures.

And here are some of the things they comment: Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

People can be well read, sophistacted and knowledgeable about psychology, history, literature, etc... but too many are locked in to the version they were taught as a child. And that version stays with them the rest of their life. It has roots.

The bible doesn't make literal sense with all its contradictions and inconsistencies.

It is not an illusion that the Bible is true. A book that has more correct predictions than any other book can't be overlooked. As I mentioned in the other thread (the one about Atheists) the odds of the confirmed prophecy that has been stated in the bible is 10 to the 138th power. If the Bible is false and atheists are correct then creative design could never occur, and if creative design never occured then we aren't having this discussion.

http://firstbaptistchurch2.tripod.com/id34.html This site has photographic evidence that is in line with the parting of the Red Sea, which is at the beginning of the Exodus. I can also assure you that most Jews believe in the Exodus, as well as the existence of Moses and Abraham (I have many friend that are Jewish).

I need some contradictions and inconsistencies as proof then if it is filled with them.

[The Sarge]

Dude, stop it right now, because you are burying yourself into a fucking chasm. You obviously do not know what you are talking about. For God's sake, before you type another letter in response, just fucking google it if you don't have a bible handy.

Moses was given the 10 commandments AND the Pentateuch at Sinai....AND the Oral Law, to be more precise.

According to Judaic theology, the Torah actually existed before the beginning of time, along with God. So yes, this whole story was pre-ordained before the creation of the Earth, This theology was actually used by the muslims, who believe that the Koran existed before the Earth did.

Chasm? K. Enjoy your Google University Education.

God DID give him the Law, NOT Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy; which was my whole point. God also didn't give Moses the story of what Moses did. Pray-tell, give me the passage where God gave Moses the 1st FIVE books of the Bible.

Anyway...enjoy tomorrow's show...it should be a good one.

[Furtherman]

First Baptist Church? Please. Agenda driven.

You want to really know what happened with the Red Sea? On the Greek Island of Santorini around the 16th century BC, there was a huge volcanic eruption - thousands of times more powerful than a nuclear bomb.

The ash cloud plunged the area into darkness - generating lightning and hail (two of the 10 plauges right there). Shortly thereafter, the could would have caused a drought. The sea level dropped, the billions of tons of dirt and clay dropped into the Nile - turning it a reddish color - driving frogs onto the shores, and without their watery homes available - they die - and then comes the flies and lice. Flies transmit disease to cattle - blisters and boils to humans. There's your plauges of the times - all natural.

Even the words "Red Sea" is a mistranslation of the Hewbrew word for Sea of Reeds - which was a much shallower swamp that many people used to cross the area.

There's nothing devine about it. A primitive people looking for reason of natural events.

No different than the natvie american indians fearing the "great spinning wind gods!"

[The Sarge]

The Sarge is correct. On Sinai Moses was given the Ten Commandments, but you are also correct that the Covenent was given then to, and Isreal agreed with the Covenent, but the Pentateuch was not given then. Later Levitical law was passed down, and Deuteronomy ends with the death of Moses (which is widely believed to be written by Joshua).

Thanks, mister.

[Diceman Cometh]

The Sarge is correct. On Sinai Moses was given the Ten Commandments, but you are also correct that the Covenent was given then to, and Isreal agreed with the Covenent, but the Pentateuch was not given then.


You are dead wrong. The entire Pentateuch was given to Moses by God, and he had most or all of it transcribed before he died. Please go read the bible or google it before you say otherwise. I provided you with a link and an excerpt. Please read it. Then look at other sources if you would like to.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother arguing with you and sarge when you two don't bother to do even 30 seconds' worth of research after I try to explain to you where you are wrong.


The fact that people today are still attacking the Bible like they are show the validity that the book must have. The Bible is attacked ten times more than the Koran. Why is that? More people are afraid that the Bible, and those who believe are going to force them to live their lives differently. People understand that they are going to have to step out of their comfort zones, and most people don't want to do that.

I would absolutely LOVE to be proven wrong about the bible. I would LOVE to believe that there is a God, and the Bible is His word. I would LOVE to know that there is an afterlife, and that there is a greater purpose to the universe, there is someone watching over us, that my people are the Chosen People. I would also love to be told the proper way to live instead of guessing. If I knew for a FACT that God existed, I would be an Ultra-Orthodox Jew, and so would many others. In fact, I'd say 99.9% of humanity would become ultra-religious if God suddenly revealed himself and let the world know that He does indeed exist.

The trouble is that I have no reason to believe that God exists, so why would I waste my time following a theology that could be a monumental waste of time, practiced under false pretenses?

And your comment about "The fact that people today are still attacking the Bible like they are show the validity that the book must have" is ridiculous. the reason that so many are intent on proving the bible wrong is because it is such a big part of politics today. If you convince a person that the Bible is bullshit, many political beliefs will change. Case in point: Me. After I realized the bible is bullshit, I finally dropped my irrational hatred of homosexuality (thus changing my stance on gay marriage), was no longer against 1st and 2nd term abortions, and I stopped being a proponent of teaching Intelligent Design in public schools.

So don't tell me that disproving the bible is just an exercise in running away from responsibility. There are some very, very heavy political consequences to a person's belief in the Bible. An atheist's attempt to prove you wrong should not be taken any more personally than a proponent of capitalism trying to convince a socialist that his underlying theory of human behavior is wrong before he even begins talking about specific economic issues.

[Diceman Cometh]

Thanks, mister.

Don't thank him until you've done the requisite research.

[The Sarge]

You are dead wrong. The entire Pentateuch was given to Moses by God, and he had most or all of it transcribed before he died. Please go read the bible or google it before you say otherwise. I provided you with a link and an excerpt. Please read it. Then look at other sources if you would like to.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother arguing with you and sarge when you two don't bother to do even 30 seconds' worth of research after I try to explain to you where you are wrong.



I would absolutely LOVE to be proven wrong about the bible. I would LOVE to believe that there is a God, and the Bible is His word. I would LOVE to know that there is an afterlife, and that there is a greater purpose to the universe, there is someone watching over us, that my people are the Chosen People. I would also love to be told the proper way to live instead of guessing. If I knew for a FACT that God existed, I would be an Ultra-Orthodox Jew, and so would many others. In fact, I'd say 99.9% of humanity would become ultra-religious if God suddenly revealed himself and let the world know that He does indeed exist.

The trouble is that I have no reason to believe that God exists, so why would I waste my time following a theology that could be a monumental waste of time, practiced under false pretenses?

And your comment about "The fact that people today are still attacking the Bible like they are show the validity that the book must have" is ridiculous. the reason that so many are intent on proving the bible wrong is because it is such a big part of politics today. If you convince a person that the Bible is bullshit, many political beliefs will change. Case in point: Me. After I realized the bible is bullshit, I finally dropped my irrational hatred of homosexuality (thus changing my stance on gay marriage), was no longer against 1st and 2nd term abortions, and I stopped being a proponent of teaching Intelligent Design in public schools.

So don't tell me that disproving the bible is just an exercise in running away from responsibility. There are some very, very heavy political consequences to a person's belief in the Bible. An atheist's attempt to prove you wrong should not be taken any more personally than a proponent of capitalism trying to convince a socialist that his underlying theory of human behavior is wrong before he even begins talking about specific economic issues.

This coming from a guy who uses Wikipedia as a Valid source.

Just stop. No, better yet...keep going. This ain't the first time I've heard jargon like this.

Please, show me where God gave Moses the Pentateuch (Gen-Deu). Good luck, bro.

Once again, God didn't give Moses a story about Moses. Just the Law.

One thing I will say. Personal attacks were kept outta this debate. Makes for good dialogue. To you, Thanks.

- Sarge.

[Diceman Cometh]

God DID give him the Law, NOT Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy; which was my whole point. God also didn't give Moses the story of what Moses did. Pray-tell, give me the passage where God gave Moses the 1st FIVE books of the Bible.

From http://www.maqom.com/backg.html, an Orthodox website:

Tradition has it that God gave the laws and customs contained in the Oral Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai at the same time God gave Moses the Written Torah (the first five books of the Bible).

From http://www.maqom.com/learner.pdf

God whispered the laws and customs contained in the Oral Torah to Moses on Mount
Sinai at the same time God gave Moses the Written Torah. (The Written Torah consists of the
Torah, the first five books of the Bible, the Prophets and the Writings.)

From http://originsofourfaith.com/wb/wb-03.html

Orthodox Judaism believes that on Mt. Sinai God gave Moses the Written Torah and the Oral Torah.

From http://scheinerman.net/judaism/ideas/torah.html

The Oral Torah had been given on Mount Sinai along with the Written Torah (the Five Books of Moses)

[Diceman Cometh]

This coming from a guy who uses Wikipedia as a Valid source.

I didn't need wikipedia buddy...I put it there for you.

And I haven't attacked anyone on this thread once.

[Furtherman]

God whispered the laws and customs contained in the Oral Torah to Moses on Mount
Sinai at the same time God gave Moses the Written Torah. (The Written Torah consists of the
Torah, the first five books of the Bible, the Prophets and the Writings.)


Did Moses bring a stenograph with him up there? That's a lot of law and a lot of whispering.

[Diceman Cometh]

God gives Moses the Torah in Exodus 19:21 and again in 32:7.

From http://www.kencollins.com/bible-p2.htm

According to Jewish and therefore also Christian tradition, the Torah was written by Moses. Jesus Himself affirms Moses as the author of the Torah. As today, the concept of authorship included the possibilities of ghost writers and editors working under the author’s supervision. Therefore, neither Christians nor Jews had a problem with those passages of the Torah that describe Moses’ death and the ultimate disposition of his body. Although it was obvious to people then as now that Moses could not have penned those sections, it did not impugn Moses’ authorship. Even today, if an author dies after completing the bulk of a work and someone else finishes off the final chapter from the author’s notes and adds a few concluding comments about the death of the author, we have no problem attributing the whole work to the original author.

From http://www.aish.com/torahportion/moray/The_Ten_Commandments_Part_II.asp

The entire Torah was written by Moses Our Teacher, prior to his death, by his hand.

Did Moses bring a stenograph with him up there? That's a lot of law and a lot of whispering.

I agree, its insane to believe, but this is what fundamentalists believe.

[Diceman Cometh]

http://firstbaptistchurch2.tripod.com/id34.html This site has photographic evidence that is in line with the parting of the Red Sea, which is at the beginning of the Exodus.

Good to see your getting your evidence from a Church's website. For a second there, I thought you were gonna use a biased source.


I can also assure you that most Jews believe in the Exodus, as well as the existence of Moses and Abraham (I have many friend that are Jewish).

Who said they didn't? I said that the archaelogical evidence clearly shows that no exodus occured, and that biblical history is not taught as historical fact in most secular Israeli schools. Of course religious Jews still believe it.



If the Bible is false and atheists are correct then creative design could never occur, and if creative design never occured then we aren't having this discussion.

Interesting logic you have here. This statement is only true if you make the ASSUMPTION that only creative design could be the reason we are here. You have proved no such thing.

A book that has more correct predictions than any other book can't be overlooked. As I mentioned in the other thread (the one about Atheists) the odds of the confirmed prophecy that has been stated in the bible is 10 to the 138th power.

And I provided a rebuttal to that extremely misleading "proof" of prophecy, which you did NOT address in the earlier thread. Here it is again:

From The Life and Works of Paine, Vol. 9, p. 206:

"The problem is quite simple. Not one of the prophecies cited clearly pertains to Jesus. The entire messianic structure is built on conjecture, speculation, and interpolation. There is no prophecy in the OT foretelling the coming of Jesus Christ. There is not one word in the OT referring to him in any way--not one word. The only way to prove this is to take your Bible, and wherever you find these words; 'That it might be fulfilled' and 'which was spoken' turn to the OT and find what was written, and you will see that it had not the slightest possible reference to the thing recounted in the NT--not the slightest."

"The writers of the gospels state some trifling case of the person they call Jesus Christ, and then cut out a sentence from some passage of the OT and call it a prophecy of that case. But when the words thus cut out are restored to the places they are taken from, and read with the words before and after them, they give the lie to the NT" (Ibid. Vol. 9, p. 269).

For detailed examples, see http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopicp-103646.html

There are also many prophesies which were SUPPOSED TO be fulfilled by Jesus, but never were, those which were fulfilled in a manner different from that promised, and New Testament references to Old Testament prophecies that don't exist. For a listing (there are DOZENS) see http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopicp-103646.html...
or, if you prefer, any books by Michael Cook.


This coming from a guy who uses Wikipedia as a Valid source.

btw, all those sources I gave you came from Orthodox Jewish scholars....well, all except one....the other source was from a Christian theological website.

[usadingo]

What Furthman said.

One of the biggest blows to my faith was when I read that archaelogists have found NO PROOF of the Exodus from Egypt. 4o years in a relatively small desert, and not a single shred of a mass exodus, or even a small one. There is no Egyptian army at the bottom of the Red Sea....in fact, there is no mention of a large Israelite slave population in ancient Egypt - and the Egyptians kept excellent records, especially of civic projects, which is exactly what slaves would be involved in.
And yet, if you Google "Exodus evidence" you get a whole slew of writings claiming evidence. I haven't taken the time to look into it all, so I don't claim to be an expert either way. But if you absolutely must have something to read, I did find this. It's not exactly "evidence," but it is somewhat of an explination...

Critics make much of the supposed “fact” that there is no mention of the Hebrews in hieroglyphic inscriptions, no mention of Moses, and no records of such a mass population movement as claimed in the biblical account of the Exodus from Egypt. This “fact” is questionable. The famous Israel Stele (an inscribed stone or slab) of Pharaoh Merneptah (described more fully below) states, “Israel — his seed is not.” Furthermore, even if there were no mention whatever of the Hebrews in Egyptian records, this also would prove nothing, especially in view of the well-known Egyptian proclivity never to record reverses or defeats or anything that would embarrass the majesty of the ruling monarch. Would any pharaoh have the following words chiseled onto his monument: “Under my administration, a great horde of Hebrew slaves successfully escaped into the Sinai Desert when we tried to prevent them”?

The ancient Egyptians, in fact, transformed some of their reverses into “victories.” One of the most imposing monuments in Egypt consists of four-seated colossi of Rameses II overlooking the Nile (now Lake Nasser) at Abu-Simbel. Rameses erected the colossi to intimidate the Ethiopians to the south who had heard correctly that he had barely escaped with his life at the battle of Kadesh against the Hittites, and so they thought Egypt was ripe for invasion. The story told on the walls inside this monument, however, was that of a marvelous Egyptian victory!

Further, there is no proof that Moses existed - in fact, his story (along with the Exodus) is a rehashing of an old Syrian myth.
Yeah yeah yeah. Everything is a rehashing of some other story. Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is a rip off of the ABC song. The story of Jesus is similar to a plants life (birth, sudden "bloom", death, rising again).
Common stories do exist. That doesn't always mean one is wrong if it happens at a different date.

And here's the kicker - the Bible was supposedly given to Moses at Mount Sinai in the 14th century BC. However, the Hebrew alphabet, as it is used in the Bible, wasn't even in existence until the 7th century BC - 700 years AFTER the Bible was supposedly written.
Again, I'm not an archeologist. I do know that in biblical times, most stories were spoken for years. Moses may have written the originals and then given them to someone who translated them in later years. Again, I don't know the past.
And at least update your claim here. Even the Wikipedia says 10th century. What difference does it make? Little. But if we're going to maintain accuracy...

The archaelogy you trumpet so much has been a major force in destroying the bible's credibility as a historical source.
According to your sources, I'm sure. You seem to ignore any that support the bible though such as the portises described in John (chapter 5 I believe) in the story of the man at the pool. There's others, but we could go on for days listing all the finds that support both of our cases.

1) Lewis was a fucking Literature professor at Oxford, not a scientist. His arguments were almost exclusively philosophical arguments for God.
My point was that there are former whatevers on both sides of the case.

Only problem is, you seem to find a HUGELY disproportionate amount of scientific writings discrediting the Bible. In fact, you really don't find any at all favoring the bible's accuracy - at least nothing favoring Creationism, Intelligent Design, the Flood, or Adam and Eve. Not in any peer-reviewed scientific journals you don't.
People have already tried to show some to you, but you don't seem to want to acknowledge them since you don't agree.

Not a single one of those manuscripts go back further than 100 years AFTER the death of Jesus...and the oldest gospel wasn't written until at least 70 years after Jesus' death.
Again, spoken word. But another thing you see in history is Christianity fluroshing during a time where eye witnesses were alive. You have non-biblical writings acknowledging things like Jesus's death and burial, his performing of miracles, etc. And you have Christians the whole time saying that if it's not true, than our message is void.

Furthermore, there are OTHER gospels out there that are even older than the "offical," church-approved gospels, and were written much closer to Jesus' death...gospels that do not paint Jesus as divine in any way. Yet you choose to ignore those, for some reason.
This is where you need to read about the Canonization process. To be accepted into the "Bible," books had to be written by apostles, or closely linked to Jesus. They had to be in agreement with the account of Jesus. I'm sure there's someone on here that could speak on the canonization process better though.

Also, if those translations you speak of are so accurate, how do you explain the countless mistranslations and additions talked about in that book I told you. Have you even read the book? I suggest you do. I can recommend about 11 others.
I could recommend just as many from the other side. You'd read them and blow them off, just as I'd probably read that book and blow it off.

And yeah, I know this post is vague and all over the place. But I'm at work, and it's time to go home, so I'm rushing.

[The Sarge]

I didn't need wikipedia buddy...I put it there for you.

And I haven't attacked anyone on this thread once.

I never said you did. In fact, I THANKED you for not attacking.

Please, stop being defensive and take a compliment. You'll take it and LIKE it. :icon_wink

[Diceman Cometh]

And yet, if you Google "Exodus evidence" you get a whole slew of writings claiming evidence. I haven't taken the time to look into it all, so I don't claim to be an expert either way. But if you absolutely must have something to read, I did find this. It's not exactly "evidence," but it is somewhat of an explination...

First of all, the Israelites were supposed to have been enslaved in Egypt for over 400 years. So there was plenty of time to mention the Israelite slave population before their escape and the destruction of Pharoah's army.

Second, there is no archaelogical evidence for any of the devastating plagues, which shoud have left quite a scar on the land.

Third, there is no evidence of the Israelites wandering the Sinai. According to the Bible, there were over 6 million Israelites wandering the Sinai for 40 fucking years. Where is the evidence?

Fourth, even if what you say is true, it doesn't prove that the Israelites actually were there....it merely explains why Pharoah might have not recorded the event, HAD IT HAPPENED. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it DID in fact happen. Hieroglyphics are not the only way to prove that the Israelites were in Egypt, yet THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.


Yeah yeah yeah. Everything is a rehashing of some other story. Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is a rip off of the ABC song. The story of Jesus is similar to a plants life (birth, sudden "bloom", death, rising again).
Common stories do exist. That doesn't always mean one is wrong if it happens at a different date.

A not-so-clever way to avoid an obvious pattern in ancient mythologies. If there is literally just as much evidence for the Syrian version (which is ZERO) as there is for the Hebrew version, then why not believe in the Syrian version as well, and worship THEIR God too? Clearly, evidence exists that shows a pattern of mythologies in that region of the world.


Again, I'm not an archeologist. I do know that in biblical times, most stories were spoken for years. Moses may have written the originals and then given them to someone who translated them in later years. Again, I don't know the past.

Well I'll help you out then. The copying of the Torah was considered such a sacred thing, that scribes were trained for years to copy it with precision. If a single LETTER of a Torah copy was even DISTORTED, it not only had to be thrown away, it had to be burned, out of fear that the error would propogate. So no, the Torah that you would read today was not translated from an earlier Hebrew. It's lettering is precisely the same today as it was when it was first written.

And at least update your claim here. Even the Wikipedia says 10th century. What difference does it make? Little. But if we're going to maintain accuracy...

Please show me where it says that the Torah was given to Moses in the 10th century. Even the archaelogical AND biblical sources agree that the Israelite kingdom had already formed by that time.


According to your sources, I'm sure. You seem to ignore any that support the bible though such as the portises described in John (chapter 5 I believe) in the story of the man at the pool. There's others, but we could go on for days listing all the finds that support both of our cases.

I absolutely do NOT ignore any of your arguments. I have addressed all of them as best I can. Rebutting an argument is not the same as ignoring it. You, however, have ignored many of mine, including the fact that there is no evidence of 6 million people marching through the Sinai for 40 years.


My point was that there are former whatevers on both sides of the case.

And MY point is that the vast, VAST majority of scientists are on MY side.


People have already tried to show some to you, but you don't seem to want to acknowledge them since you don't agree.


You are flat-out lying here. I have acknowledged every single argument with as much respect as I can. When I don't agree, I tell you why, and I try to back it up.

Again, spoken word. But another thing you see in history is Christianity fluroshing during a time where eye witnesses were alive. You have non-biblical writings acknowledging things like Jesus's death and burial, his performing of miracles, etc.

First of all, the only contemporary, non-Christian source that affirms Jesus's existence is the historian Josephus, and all he confirms is Jesus's existence and crucifixion. He does not confirm his miracles or divinity.

Second, these "eye-witness accounts" you speak of come were written down over 70 years after Jesus's death. Quite a lot can happen to an oral tradition after 70 years.


This is where you need to read about the Canonization process.

And this is where you need to read about the Council of Nicea, where official Church doctrine was finally formed, and the belief in Jesus' divinity was finally agreed upon - over 300 years after Jesus' death - by an panicky emperor intent on estalishing a religion that can control the masses because the Roman Empire was crumbling at the edges.

To be accepted into the "Bible," books had to be written by apostles, or closely linked to Jesus. They had to be in agreement with the account of Jesus. I'm sure there's someone on here that could speak on the canonization process better though.

There are other Gospels that were, as I said, written earlier, and by eyewitnesses. And there are more gospels that agree that Jesus WASN"T divine than there are gospels saying he WAS.

I could recommend just as many from the other side. You'd read them and blow them off, just as I'd probably read that book and blow it off.

In my struggle to convince myself that the bible is true, I probably read them already, but you are more than welcome to tell me about them, since I am always ready to admit when I am wrong. Just a year ago, on wackbag, I was defending the bible, now I am refuting it. If that doesn't prove my ability to admit defeat, I don't know what does.

[Diceman Cometh]

I never said you did. In fact, I THANKED you for not attacking.

Please, stop being defensive and take a compliment. You'll take it and LIKE it. :icon_wink

Sorry man, I was just in Attack Mode.

[TrybalRage]

In fact, I'd say 99.9% of humanity would become ultra-religious if God suddenly revealed himself and let the world know that He does indeed exist.

I wish you were right about that, but I think you are mistaken. Most people would hate Him for the way the world is today, and refuse to change their lives away from the selfish ones they live.

If you convince a person that the Bible is bullshit, many political beliefs will change. Case in point: Me. After I realized the bible is bullshit, I finally dropped my irrational hatred of homosexuality (thus changing my stance on gay marriage), was no longer against 1st and 2nd term abortions, and I stopped being a proponent of teaching Intelligent Design in public schools.

I don't know. I don't hate gays, I disagree with their choices. Yes, choices.

I don't like abortions because as the adopted son of an unwed teenage mother, I take it personally that I easily could have been one.

And yes, I support teaching ID, but I also don't like the 'take it or leave it' stance on evolution. "We have nothing better, and it doesn't answer everything, but don't you dare question it" - unlike any other scientific theory. That bugs me.

I am sorry you lost your faith. But who knows, in my experience people don't find God, He finds them.

[TrybalRage]

Just a year ago, on wackbag, I was defending the bible, now I am refuting it. If that doesn't prove my ability to admit defeat, I don't know what does.


You know, I thought you used to have a different tune, but I figured it was just my bad memory.

[Diceman Cometh]

I wish you were right about that, but I think you are mistaken. Most people would hate Him for the way the world is today, and refuse to change their lives away from the selfish ones they live.

If God is God, then isn't it ridiculous to disagree with that he says, does, or commands? Especially with the promise of eternal paradise dangling over people's noses, I think everyone would do what he commands just for that purpose. How many people would kill, ****, steal, etc. if they KNEW they would literally burn for eternity?

I don't know. I don't hate gays, I disagree with their choices. Yes, choices.

I don't like abortions because as the adopted son of an unwed teenage mother, I take it personally that I easily could have been one.

But surely you must admit that the vast majority of people who are anti-gay or anti-abortion are indeed Christian. Keep in mind I am not saying that all Christians are anti-gay/abortion....I'm saying that most anti-gays/abortionists are Christian/religious.

[Sutsu]

I would absolutely LOVE to be proven wrong about the bible. I would LOVE to believe that there is a God, and the Bible is His word. I would LOVE to know that there is an afterlife, and that there is a greater purpose to the universe, there is someone watching over us, that my people are the Chosen People. I would also love to be told the proper way to live instead of guessing. If I knew for a FACT that God existed, I would be an Ultra-Orthodox Jew, and so would many others. In fact, I'd say 99.9% of humanity would become ultra-religious if God suddenly revealed himself and let the world know that He does indeed exist.

The trouble is that I have no reason to believe that God exists, so why would I waste my time following a theology that could be a monumental waste of time, practiced under false pretenses?


The simple fact that it cannot be proven is what causes it to be a faith. Again, if it was so blatantly obvious and uncontestable, everyone would believe because there would be no choice and therefore defeating the purpose of free will. I think that just about everyone gets that one little glimpse where they can either say "Yeah, that had to be divine intervention" or "These things happen" just like out of Pulp Fiction and it's everyone's individual choice to believe what happened from there.
And following up on that, with what Trybal says, there are ALWAYS people who think they can get one over on someone. Doesn't matter whether it's God or the cop we know is on the highway waiting for us to speed but we're gonna speed anyway. And like Al Pachino said in Devil's Advocate when asked about why bother when it's written you're going to lose: Consider the source. People'l just say "Of course God's gonna say I'll rot in hell because I did this, but it's because He just wants to say it" and then of course people will say "But so and so did so much worse and they're in hell, why am I going to hell even though I only did this?"

On the whole moses/torah thing, Moses was given all the info to put down and Moses probably put down what happened as they were going through. Look at Numbers 33, it's basically a recap of everything that happened for a long time, and includes Numbers 33:38 "Then Aaron the priest went up to Mount Hor at the command of the Lord, and died there in the fortieth year after the sons of Israel had come from the land of Egypt, on the first day of the fifth month." Doesn't sound like God's is telling Moses what was going to happen before it happened (but of course for argument's sake it is possible when dealing with an all knowing God). And if Moses was told all of what was going to happen, I'm sure when He got to the point in Numbers where He said "And Moses, you're going to smack a rock twice even though I told you just talk to it to get some water and because of that you're never going to see the land of Israel" Moses probably would've said "Yea... wait what? Fuck that shit!"

[Screwtape]

These damn university professors have way too much time on their hands. From fucking Ward Churchill, to that nitwit black professor who says all white people fear black sexual prowess. It's insane.

well stated :clap:

intellectuals with too much time.

[CM Mark]

You know what, I have a solution to all of this foolishness. Let's just ask God for the truth when he shows up at WWE's Backlash PPV on April 30th.



Can't we all just get along?

[fothermucker]

Yeah Freud had it all right. Now excuse me as I go strangle my father while mom blows me. :icon_conf
Not the Oedipal complex. I meant Freud would ring bells for her because he wrote about the need for God stemming from the fundamental need of mankind to have a father figure.

[Diceman Cometh]

And if Moses was told all of what was going to happen, I'm sure when He got to the point in Numbers where He said "And Moses, you're going to smack a rock twice even though I told you just talk to it to get some water and because of that you're never going to see the land of Israel" Moses probably would've said "Yea... wait what? Fuck that shit!"

Again, Jews believe that the Torah actually existed before Time. Regardless, even your explanation would put the date of the written Torah to have been completed towards the end of Moses' life - 700 years before the Hebrew alphabet was developed as we see it in the Torah.

[Sutsu]

Again, Jews believe that the Torah actually existed before Time. Regardless, even your explanation would put the date of the written Torah to have been completed towards the end of Moses' life - 700 years before the Hebrew alphabet was developed as we see it in the Torah.

Well, technically the Torah did exist before Time, just as all of us existed before time in a way because God exists outside of time and knows all because He sees it all. God always is, never was or will be simply because that puts Him on a temporal plane of exsistance. And while it does raise some questions about our free will, how do we have any if God already knows what we're going to do, it gives me more of a headache to think about it than your common Star Trek time continuum garbage.

I have no answers for the writing of the Torah in the Hebrew alphabet. There must have been some sort of written or oral tradition that passed down the Torah from when Moses walked the earth until Hebrew as such was developed. I'm not Jewish so I really have no clue as to that one.

[Baby Evil]

You are dead wrong. The entire Pentateuch was given to Moses by God, and he had most or all of it transcribed before he died. Please go read the bible or google it before you say otherwise. I provided you with a link and an excerpt. Please read it. Then look at other sources if you would like to.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother arguing with you and sarge when you two don't bother to do even 30 seconds' worth of research after I try to explain to you where you are wrong.



I would absolutely LOVE to be proven wrong about the bible. I would LOVE to believe that there is a God, and the Bible is His word. I would LOVE to know that there is an afterlife, and that there is a greater purpose to the universe, there is someone watching over us, that my people are the Chosen People. I would also love to be told the proper way to live instead of guessing. If I knew for a FACT that God existed, I would be an Ultra-Orthodox Jew, and so would many others. In fact, I'd say 99.9% of humanity would become ultra-religious if God suddenly revealed himself and let the world know that He does indeed exist.

The trouble is that I have no reason to believe that God exists, so why would I waste my time following a theology that could be a monumental waste of time, practiced under false pretenses?

And your comment about "The fact that people today are still attacking the Bible like they are show the validity that the book must have" is ridiculous. the reason that so many are intent on proving the bible wrong is because it is such a big part of politics today. If you convince a person that the Bible is bullshit, many political beliefs will change. Case in point: Me. After I realized the bible is bullshit, I finally dropped my irrational hatred of homosexuality (thus changing my stance on gay marriage), was no longer against 1st and 2nd term abortions, and I stopped being a proponent of teaching Intelligent Design in public schools.

So don't tell me that disproving the bible is just an exercise in running away from responsibility. There are some very, very heavy political consequences to a person's belief in the Bible. An atheist's attempt to prove you wrong should not be taken any more personally than a proponent of capitalism trying to convince a socialist that his underlying theory of human behavior is wrong before he even begins talking about specific economic issues.

HOW CAN YOU SAY I AM DEAD WRONG WHEN YOU HAVEN'T SPENT YEARS AND YEARS STUDYING THE BIBLE INTENTLY?

ok I am not going to get pissed here, but let me say this you are bent on ignoring basic evidence whether it comes from a church website or not. The Jesus wallks on Ice thing is equally biased since it is a scientist trying to make a name for himself be trying to disprove the Bible.

Now Diceman...since we have been going around the God issue for a couple of weeks have I ever tried to "convert" you. No I respect what you believe even though you have all but accused me of being dishonest, stupid, and a lemming. Even though I am a Christian I am not against gay marriage...straight people have alreasy cheapened the concept enough. I am against abortion, but more for slippery slope reasons than my faith. I completely believe in intellegent design proof being that we are having this discussion. Without intellegent design how do we have creativity and constructive thought? People have always tried to disprove the Bible. The Bible teaches us all that man is inherently evil, and is the only religion to teach that (Meaning the Jewish and Christian faiths that adopt the Bible). Man is awful. Look at the shit we do on a daily basis. We murder, we steal, we lie, and we hate others based on their differences.

So my question is...those things are wrong right?

[Baby Evil]

Not the Oedipal complex. I meant Freud would ring bells for her because he wrote about the need for God stemming from the fundamental need of mankind to have a father figure.

I was demonstrating how correct Frued seems to be. Besides to follow Freud's logic if God was was created to be a father figure then that would mean that mankind wants to kill God right?

[Diceman Cometh]

HOW CAN YOU SAY I AM DEAD WRONG WHEN YOU HAVEN'T SPENT YEARS AND YEARS STUDYING THE BIBLE INTENTLY?

Actually, I've spent nearly my whole life studying the Old Testament in tremendous detail, and many years with the Gospels and Koran. Even with my newfound atheism, I am more engrossed in Scripture than ever.

I can also say you are dead wrong because not only do I know this subject extremely well, but I have provided a ton of links for you, from Orthodox rabbis and from Christian theological websites confirming what I said.


ok I am not going to get pissed here, but let me say this you are bent on ignoring basic evidence whether it comes from a church website or not. The Jesus wallks on Ice thing is equally biased since it is a scientist trying to make a name for himself be trying to disprove the Bible.

The fact that you can only get your "dynamite evidence" from a church's website, and not an objective source, speaks volumes of the nature of your argument.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say fine, there are some chariots and skeletons at the bottom of the Red Sea (clearly not an entire army's worth of ruins - not even close - but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one as well). Where, then, is the proof of a 40-year, 6-miilion-man trek through a small area of desert? A few chariots, sir, is not enough to prove the story of the Exodus, as you can find such things at the bottom of nearby bodies of water next to ancient civilizations. If a small number of chariots could be found in other bodies of water, then that means that you could find such things in places where the Exodus DEFINATELY did not occur. This, in turn, means that finding a few chariots does not prove an Exodus, unless you mean to say that an Exodus occured wherever you find some chariots.


Now Diceman...since we have been going around the God issue for a couple of weeks have I ever tried to "convert" you. No I respect what you believe even though you have all but accused me of being dishonest,

I have not accused you of being dishonest, but I did accuse one particular bit of evidence from a Creationist website as being dishonest - and I PROVED to you that it was dishonest.

stupid,

Show me the quote where I called you stupid.

and a lemming.

Ditto.


This is a debate sir. Just because I am calling your argument weak does not mean I am disrespecting you as a person. This is not the middle east, where disrespecting Mohammad (Jesus in our case) is blasphemous. The religious people on this thread seem to think that my criticism of the Bible is tanamount to disrespecting you. That is simply not true. I'm just having a debate about the validity of the Bible. You should not be so sensitive.

When I was defending the Bible a while back on Wackbag, I was getting pummelled by atheists on this board with language that was quite a bit more aggressive than mine. However, I took it like a man and defended my position without resorting to accusations of disrespect. So far I have been extremely respectful to you and everyone else.

If your real problem lies simply in the fact that you are uncomfortable with my attacks on the Bible's validity, then are are simply trying to silence me because you don't like to hear what I am saying. If this is the case, say so, and out of respect for a fellow wackbagger, I'll shut up....I just assumed you wanted a good debate. I think that is what we were having.

I completely believe in intellegent design proof being that we are having this discussion. Without intellegent design how do we have creativity and constructive thought?

You have failed to provide a concrete, logical explanation for why this statement must be true. There is a huge gap in your logic here.

You believe that you cannot be here without Intelligent Design. Please prove that this is so. Otherwise your argument is simply an opinion - and one not based on fact.

[Diceman Cometh]

Well, well, well....looks like I should have looked at that link you gave me after all. You know, the one about the "proof" that the Exodus occured? That oh-so-objective Baptist Church website?

Well, I've found some interesting info on the man who made those so-called "discoveries" of those chariot wheels....Ron Wyatt.

It turns out that ol' Ron Wyatt is a known liar and a fraud....

http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/

This man also claimed to have found the Ten Commandments and Ark of the Covenant, the "tent-pole" in which Jesus' cross was placed, Noah's Ark, and a whole bunch of other things that later turned out to be complete and utter BULLSHIT.

Not a single one of Wyatt's claims has withstood even superficial scrutiny. One of his sons even admitted that (the now dead) Wyatt planted evidence...including that fucking chariot wheel. Wyatt also failed a lie detector test when questioned about the chariot wheel and his other claims.

There is a book detailing his fraudulent career...

"Holy Relics or Revelation" by Russell R. Standish and Colin D. Standish

These authors are Christians, from Wyatt's own denomination, who have exposed Wyatt and his career of lies. They also show that the man has conned an enormous amount of money from Christians that he fooled.

[The Sarge]

Sorry man, I was just in Attack Mode.


Not to be a picky-Pete, but wouldn't that be PatBattle Mode?

[Furtherman]

Nice find Diceman! What Ron Wyatt did is the same thing that every religion did in its early beginnings. It dupes people. The human mind is very manipulative.

[NikDaSchwugie]

hot dang, it's like Wackbag UFC in here. *pops popcorn*

maybe I should start spiking my hair and selling you guys out to HBO.

[grail]

I've been following the debate on this thread on on the atheist thread. Since both debates are following the same lines, mods could we murge the two. My question is to diceman, sarge, baby evil. Have any of you studied compartative religions? I mean studying religions other than those of your own from an impartial acedemic standpoint.

BTW guys great debate. IMO it's been conducted with skill on all your standpoints without reverting to simple name calling and attacks.

My point is this. Belief is great. Religion is about power. Science is meant to be critiqued so that it becomes more robust.

[The Sarge]

I've been following the debate on this thread on on the atheist thread. Since both debates are following the same lines, mods could we murge the two. My question is to diceman, sarge, baby evil. Have any of you studied compartative religions? I mean studying religions other than those of your own from an impartial acedemic standpoint.

BTW guys great debate. IMO it's been conducted with skill on all your standpoints without reverting to simple name calling and attacks.

My point is this. Belief is great. Religion is about power. Science is meant to be critiqued so that it becomes more robust.

I have studied other religions, faiths and what some would call "cults", from BOTH Independent and Biased Sources, schools, etc. Not ALL religions, mind you. The main ones, basically including many Asian faiths. One thing I have learned, is the Human psychological need for a "higher being/presence, etc".

I've also learned (not all people), but for most, it is a struggle to UNbelieve in a "God" or "Diety". It's usually something a HUMAN did or what their "God" DIDN'T do for them.

Some people should realize that there is such a thing a "Free Will" and to stop blaming "God" for anything. Playing the "Job" Card. . .

"Oh God why, why, why?" Blah blah blah.

[TrybalRage]

Where, then, is the proof of a 40-year, 6-miilion-man trek through a small area of desert? A few chariots, sir, is not enough to prove the story of the Exodus, as you can find such things at the bottom of nearby bodies of water next to ancient civilizations. If a small number of chariots could be found in other bodies of water, then that means that you could find such things in places where the Exodus DEFINATELY did not occur. This, in turn, means that finding a few chariots does not prove an Exodus, unless you mean to say that an Exodus occured wherever you find some chariots.



How much evidence do you expect from a nomadic culture? Look at modern nomads, they don't exactly build monuments to announce their presence. One good sandstorm and its all gone. Even the grandest structure, the Tabernacle, was just some poles and cloth.

6 million is a big number, however, I'm wondering where you got it. (not saying you're wong, just never heard a number before)

Again, what do you expect from wood and iron chariots in a body of water? After a few years, I would think not much would be left.

[The Sarge]

How much evidence do you expect from a nomadic culture? Look at modern nomads, they don't exactly build monuments to announce their presence. One good sandstorm and its all gone. Even the grandest structure, the Tabernacle, was just some poles and cloth.

6 million is a big number, however, I'm wondering where you got it. (not saying you're wong, just never heard a number before)

Again, what do you expect from wood and iron chariots in a body of water? After a few years, I would think not much would be left.


Good point sir, good point.

See you on the DoD Server tonight.

www.PESTGAMING.com <-----------Gaming Site for PESTS.

[Furtherman]

I've also learned (not all people), but for most, it is a struggle to UNbelieve in a "God" or "Diety". It's usually something a HUMAN did or what their "God" DIDN'T do for them.

Because they were taught there was a god from the time they were a child. It a deep rooted belief that is passed on from generation to generation and accepted by most in blind faith.

There is an island in the South Pacific called Tanna. Every February 15th, they celebrate John Frum Day. John Frum is an American messiah. They believe he will return one day and bring planeloads and shiploads of cargo.

During WWII, when American forces landed on these islands with primitive cultures - the natives saw them as gods, with magical treasures.

Now, 50 years later, generation after generation are taught to worship the American John Frum who lives in the island's volcano. The Chief says this is so, therefore it must be true.

In reality, John Frum was made up by a few tribal leaders as an ally to help fight against European missionaries who were attempting to crush the islander's culture and force them into Christianity. It worked - the missionaries were forced out and the islanders returned to their native ways. But John Frum day is still celebrated. People still believe in him, and soon anyone who knew the secret will die off, with whoever inherets the island's population being none the smarter.

This is how myths turn to religion. It has happened thousands of times before with thousands of different religions. Most of them created for a greater good and unity, but all of them based on lies and trickery.

If a plauge were to wipe out humanity - except on those pacific islands - a thousand years from now - when humans have expanded once again onto mainland continents, John Frum would most likely still be considered god. In another thousand years, when technology has returned to humans - people will ask on boards such as this one - What does John Frum look like?

[The Sarge]

Because they were taught there was a god from the time they were a child. It a deep rooted belief that is passed on from generation to generation and accepted by most in blind faith.

There is an island in the South Pacific called Tanna. Every February 15th, they celebrate John Frum Day. John Frum is an American messiah. They believe he will return one day and bring planeloads and shiploads of cargo.

During WWII, when American forces landed on these islands with primitive cultures - the natives saw them as gods, with magical treasures.

Now, 50 years later, generation after generation are taught to worship the American John Frum who lives in the island's volcano. The Chief says this is so, therefore it must be true.

In reality, John Frum was made up by a few tribal leaders as an ally to help fight against European missionaries who were attempting to crush the islander's culture and force them into Christianity. It worked - the missionaries were forced out and the islanders returned to their native ways. But John Frum day is still celebrated. People still believe in him, and soon anyone who knew the secret will die off, with whoever inherets the island's population being none the smarter.

This is how myths turn to religion. It has happened thousands of times before with thousands of different religions. Most of them created for a greater good and unity, but all of them based on lies and trickery.

If a plauge were to wipe out humanity - except on those pacific islands - a thousand years from now - when humans have expanded once again onto mainland continents, John Frum would most likely still be considered god. In another thousand years, when technology has returned to humans - people will ask on boards such as this one - What does John Frum look like?

And? That's an island almost no one knows about.

I'm talkin' Global. So, you have a point. I had read about the Frum movement. I'm surprised that there isn't any braclets with the initials "W.W.J.F.D." Makes ya think.

[Furtherman]

The fact that the John Frum religion evolved on an island makes little difference. A small community in need of a unifiying element. John Frum filled that gap. The same thing happened all those thousands of years ago in the Middle East, the Mediterranean, Asia, Southeast Asia, etc. etc. If there was one true religion, wouldn't there be one true religion. John Frum? No different than Jesus. It's hope. An opiate for the masses. Harmless for the most part, but not true by any means.

[Diceman Cometh]

My question is to diceman, sarge, baby evil. Have any of you studied compartative religions? I mean studying religions other than those of your own from an impartial acedemic standpoint.

Yes, I've studied other religions, on my own, in college, and through a priest and a son of an Imam. History (with a concentration in religious studies) was my college major, and even now, almost a year out of college, I still have lunch with my old professors and we e-mail each other back and forth constantly. I can tell that religious studies is probably my "true calling" in life - nothing takes up more of my time and interest, not even law school. I know most about the monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), and a good deal about the Indo-European religions....although I must confess, I don't know a tremendous amount about eastern faiths (Buddhism, Taoism, Confusianism, Shintoism, etc.), African faiths, and Native American faiths.


How much evidence do you expect from a nomadic culture? Look at modern nomads, they don't exactly build monuments to announce their presence. One good sandstorm and its all gone. Even the grandest structure, the Tabernacle, was just some poles and cloth.

First of all, the Israelites were not nomads - they had a sophisticated culture by that time.

Second, modern nomads wander around in groups of a few dozen to, at most, a few hundred......not a few million!

Third, the nomadic, bedouin Arabs left plenty of evidence of their existence in the pre-Islamic Arabian penninsula. And they moved in much smaller numbers. AND they have been there even longer than the events of Exodus. There is no shortage of sand or sandstorms in Arabia, by the way.

Fourth, evidence of pre-historic nomadic tribes, both homo-sapian and neanderthal, has been found all over the place, including desert climates, and places like Siberia. Again, their bands were much smaller, and they had much less to leave than the Israelites did - they didn't make tents like the Israelites did, etc. And these nomadic tribes are more than 300,000 years old.

Lastly, according to the Torah, shortly after their escape from Egypt, the Israelites erected many large tents, some big enough where several families could eat inside it. The holiday of Suukoht, celebrated to this day, commemorates this event - building shelters in the Sinai desert. WE HAVE NOT FOUND A SINGLE ONE OF THESE SHELTERS.


6 million is a big number, however, I'm wondering where you got it. (not saying you're wong, just never heard a number before)

You can find it in Exodus 12:37-38:

The children of Israel traveled from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot who were men

Six hundred thousand MEN were with Moses - HOWEVER, this counts ONLY men. Women and children were not included in the count. The reason for that is that men are considered the "head" of the family, and a count of all the men is really a count of families.

So you had 600,000 families in the Exodus. Now, there are varying estimates of the total number of PEOPLE - anywhere from 2 to 7 million, depending on who you ask.


Again, what do you expect from wood and iron chariots in a body of water? After a few years, I would think not much would be left.

Tons of pieces of evidence remain from pre-modern/ancient shipwrecks, sea battles, etc.- like the sea-battle of Lepanto, the sea-battle of Salamis, or Alexander the Great's siege of the island of Tyre. And these battles were found in the relatively deep and very turbulent waters of the Mediterranian Sea.

And please let's not forget that the burden of proof is on YOU to show evidence of the Exodus.

[Leslie Anne]

I love the internet. Entertainment, EVERYWHERE!

[Xyn]

Damn, I gotta check this more often. It keeps getting better.

Diceman Cometh is my hero

[Sinn Fein]

I haven't read this thread at all until today. I am considering closing it simply because THE FIRST FUCKING LINE OF THE FIRST FUCKING POST IS BLATANT TROLLING.

[Diceman Cometh]

I haven't read this thread at all until today. I am considering closing it simply because THE FIRST FUCKING LINE OF THE FIRST FUCKING POST IS BLATANT TROLLING.