Bush Spares Scooter Libby From Prison

[LiddyRules]

New sentence is now a $250,000 fine and 2 years probation instead of 2.5 years in prison. Your Amish Daddy...comment?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_trial

WASHINGTON - President Bush spared former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby from a 2 1/2-year prison term in the CIA leak investigation Monday, delivering a political thunderbolt in the highly charged criminal case. Bush said the sentence was just too harsh.

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Bush's move came just five hours after a federal appeals panel ruled that Libby could not delay his prison term. That meant Libby was likely to have to report soon, and it put new pressure on the president, who had been sidestepping calls by Libby's allies to pardon Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff.

"I respect the jury's verdict," Bush said in a statement. "But I have concluded that the prison sentence given to Mr. Libby is excessive. Therefore, I am commuting the portion of Mr. Libby's sentence that required him to spend thirty months in prison."

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald disputed the president's assertion that the prison term was excessive. Libby was sentenced under the same laws as other criminals, Fitzgerald said. "It is fundamental to the rule of law that all citizens stand before the bar of justice as equals," the prosecutor said.

Libby's attorney, Theodore Wells, said in a statement that the Libby family was grateful for Bush's action and continued to believe in his innocence.

Bush's decision enraged Democrats and cheered conservatives — though some of the latter wished Bush had granted a full pardon.

"Libby's conviction was the one faint glimmer of accountability for White House efforts to manipulate intelligence and silence critics of the Iraq war," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. "Now, even that small bit of justice has been undone."

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Bush's decision showed the president "condones criminal conduct."

Unlike a pardon, which would have wiped away Libby's criminal record, Bush's commutation voided only the prison term.

The president left intact a $250,000 fine and two years' probation for his conviction of lying and obstructing justice in a probe into the leak of a CIA operative's identity. The former operative, Valerie Plame, contends the White House was trying to discredit her husband, a critic of Bush's Iraq policy.

Bush said his action still "leaves in place a harsh punishment for Mr. Libby."

Libby was convicted in March, the highest-ranking White House official ordered to prison since the Iran-Contra affair roiled the Reagan administration in the 1980s. Arms were secretly sold to Iran to gain freedom for American hostages, with the money funneled to anti-communist guerrillas in Nicaragua in spite of a congressional ban. Bush's father, former President George H.W. Bush, issued pardons for six former officials shortly before leaving office in 1992.

Testimony in the Libby case revealed the extraordinary steps that Bush and Cheney were willing to take to discredit a critic of the Iraq war.

Libby's supporters celebrated the president's decision.

"President Bush did the right thing today in commuting the prison term for Scooter Libby," said House Republican Whip Roy Blunt of Missouri.

"That's fantastic. It's a great relief," said former Ambassador Richard Carlson, who helped raise millions for Libby's defense fund. "Scooter Libby did not deserve to go to prison and I'm glad the president had the courage to do this."

Already at record lows in the polls, Bush risked a political backlash with his decision. President Ford tumbled in the polls after his 1974 pardon of Richard M. Nixon, and the decision was a factor in Ford's loss in the 1976 presidential election.

White House officials said Bush knew he could take political heat and simply did what he thought was right. They would not say what advice Cheney might have given the president.

On the other hand, Bush's action could help Republican presidential candidates by letting them off the hook on the question of whether they would pardon Libby.

Bush said Cheney's former aide was not getting off free.

"The reputation he gained through his years of public service and professional work in the legal community is forever damaged," Bush said. "His wife and young children have also suffered immensely. He will remain on probation. The significant fines imposed by the judge will remain in effect. The consequences of his felony conviction on his former life as a lawyer, public servant and private citizen will be long-lasting."

A spokeswoman for Cheney said simply, "The vice president supports the president's decision."

The White House said Bush came to his decision in the past week or two and made it final Monday because of the ruling of the appeals panel, which meant Libby would be going to prison soon.

The president's announcement came just as prison seemed likely for Libby. He recently lost an appeals court fight that was his best chance to put the sentence on hold, and the U.S. Bureau of Prisons had already designated him inmate No. 28301-016.

Bush's statement made no mention of the term "pardon," and he made clear that he was not willing to wipe away all penalties for Libby.

The president noted Libby supporters' argument that the punishment did not fit the crime for a "first-time offender with years of exceptional public service."

Yet, he added: "Others point out that a jury of citizens weighed all the evidence and listened to all the testimony and found Mr. Libby guilty of perjury and obstructing justice. They argue, correctly, that our entire system of justice relies on people telling the truth. And if a person does not tell the truth, particularly if he serves in government and holds the public trust, he must be held accountable."

Bush then stripped away the prison time.

The leak case has hung over the White House for years. After CIA operative Valerie Plame's name appeared in a 2003 syndicated newspaper column, Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald questioned top administration officials, including Bush and Cheney, about their possible roles.

Nobody was ever charged with the leak, including Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage or White House political adviser Karl Rove, who provided the information for the original article. Prosecutors said Libby obstructed the investigation by lying about how he learned about Plame and whom he told.

Plame believes Libby and other White House officials conspired to leak her identity to reporters in 2003 as retribution against her husband, Joseph Wilson, who criticized what he said was the administration's misleading use of prewar intelligence on Iraq.

Attorney William Jeffress said he had spoken to Libby briefly by phone and "I'm happy at least that Scooter will be spared any prison time. ... The prison sentence was imminent, but obviously the conviction itself is a heavy blow to Scooter."

A White House official notified the trial judge, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton, of the decision. Walton, a Bush appointee who served in the White House under the president's father, had cited the "overwhelming" evidence against Libby when he handed down his sentence. A courthouse spokesman said Walton would not comment.

[jagsfans]

The balls on these corrupt motherfuckers. Libby is damn lucky he had nothing that could hurt these guys like Kenneth Lay.

[mendozathejew]

bush must have decided that approval ratings are for faggots

[BIV]

First off, I never understood what Libby did that was so wrong. Secondly, this is par for the course as far as presidents go. The buddies of presidents are always given some sort of pardon. Non-news.

[patbattlefield]

this proves people are stupid and ironically I don't mean the president...this time.

[mascan42]

Wow, who saw this coming?

[mendozathejew]

First off, I never understood what Libby did that was so wrong. Secondly, this is par for the course as far as presidents go. The buddies of presidents are always given some sort of pardon. Non-news.

yeah I mean Clinton himself lied under oath while in office. I havent heard hilary cry about this so far, I wonder if she has the sack to do it given bill just started helping with the campaign

[Sct Ptersns Twn]

This is another good reason to get these 2 party mother fuckers out of the offices of the United States. Until then, you fucks voting them in can whine and cry all you want. They play these games with one another all the time. They all suck dick, just like XM.

I did not need this today.....

[norton23]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: No FUCKING reason to do jail time NONE!!

[LilJimmyRbinson]

First off, I never understood what Libby did that was so wrong. Secondly, this is par for the course as far as presidents go. The buddies of presidents are always given some sort of pardon. Non-news.

Further proof of how out of touch Bush is. Whether Libby did anything really wrong or not, public perception is that someone in the administration lied at some point. Libby was the last one standing when the music stopped so he was charged, tried and convicted. There's always a fall-guy. If Bush let him serve his sentence this would all blow over. Now that he's done this, it further makes Americans believe that Bush and his administration are so stubborn and incompetent.

[Ballbuster1]

I'm really surprised that he didn't get a full pardon. Bush's ratings will
never improve and he never gives a shit what other people think so
why not let him off the hook completely?

[wes mantooth]

Your Amish Daddy...comment?


:action-sm
You guys are all sheep! How can you be so stupid as to think this would have any other outcome? This world is doomed, DOOMED I tell ya. I love you buncha hateful bigots. I don't know why I try, really, I give up. Somebody nuke the world please. I hate this place.

http://www.moviefans.de/a-z/c/che-guevara/che-guevara.jpghttp://www.berm.co.nz/artists/images/Devo.jpg



.

[YourAmishDaddy]

New sentence is now a $250,000 fine and 2 years probation instead of 2.5 years in prison. Your Amish Daddy...comment?

Hey, it's Marc Rich.... Republican style.


My hand is already on the switch for Ron Paul. Can't happen fast enough.

[Sinn Fein]

Hey, it's Marc Rich.... Republican style.

Exactly.

FLASHBACK: List of Clinton Pardons (http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm)

Clinton: My Reasons for the Pardons (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/18/opinion/18CLIN.html?pagewanted=all&ei=5070&en=66ba82eaf117b24b&ex=1183521600)

[Myhairygrundle]

I think Bush did it to call out Hillary on all her bullshit.

She's got no room to comment when she and her brother were involved in selling pardons for Bill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controversy



Bush has pissed me off lately with some shit, but this is a brilliant political move.


.

[jagsfans]

This is another good reason to get these 2 party mother fuckers out of the offices of the United States. Until then, you fucks voting them in can whine and cry all you want. They play these games with one another all the time. They all suck dick, just like XM.

I did not need this today.....

Yea, cuz these are the only two to ever abuse the Executive office. Horseshit. Whoever gets voted in 2008 will have a whole new list of scumbags to release.

However, I agree Libby did'nt deserve time for simply putting into motion the outing of a CIA desk jockey. What I don't get is wy go through all the time and money of ivestigating, prosecuting and convicting to have it signed away immediately

[Begbie]

Hey, it's Marc Rich.... Republican style.


Exactly.

FLASHBACK: List of Clinton Pardons (http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm)

Clinton: My Reasons for the Pardons (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/18/opinion/18CLIN.html?pagewanted=all&ei=5070&en=66ba82eaf117b24b&ex=1183521600)

You beat me to it Sinn!

Damn, that's some list! I see alot are drug related, but most seem to be blue collar crime.

[weakside]

First off, I hate political pardons whether its from a Republican or Democrat. It totally pisses on our court system. This is why we have three branches of government.

Besides, I’m not sure what Bush thought this was going to accomplish. Yes, he keeps a person from this staff from going to prison but by doing so has perpetuated the stereotype of the “Old Boy Network” being in full effect.

The Republican Party would have taken much less of a hit if they spun this as an isolated incident having nothing to do with the Party and let him serve out his sentence. Bush just created controversy that didn’t need to be and is yet another issue the Republicans will have to distance themselves from in the election.

[YourAmishDaddy]

The bottom line is this. Libby was essentially found guilty for impeding a federal investigation. Whether that investigation was outing a CIA agent, or someone spitting gum on Pennsylvania Avenue. It's still a federal investigation. And it is illegal, no matter what the circumstances to do that.

As we've seen time and time again, from Whitewater to Watergate the cover up and events that take place in order to prevent discovery in something that may or may not be a crime at the time will land you in jail.

It does not matter what your take is on Valerie Plame. If it were not a big deal there would have not been a federal investigation over it. The fact Irving Libby chose to subvert it is in fact illegal. He was found guilty for it, and now like so many other people in government will skate.

You can choose your sides, and root for your set of criminals all you want. But the fact that ALL of them have more access, and preferential treatment, and can skirt the law and dodge the legal system while you or I would be in jail is the true crime.

Just like the Paula Jones case, or this case, or the third rate burglary in the 70's clearly there are two sets of rules and laws for everyone in this country.

That should be the most alarming thing about this.

And that is as honest and real as I can be about it. I hate the double standard. Across the board.

[Bill]

I'm really surprised that he didn't get a full pardon. Bush's ratings will
never improve and he never gives a shit what other people think so
why not let him off the hook completely?

I think that a full pardon would hurt the Republican candidates in the next elections for President and Congress. The full pardon will occur sometime after election day 2008 and the day that Bush leaves office.

[wrinkletard]

Scooter Libby is a Yale graduate. It is another Skull and Bones administration. Anyone ever wonder why people that know the real GW never speak about his past?

[MrBogey]

Further proof of how out of touch Bush is. Whether Libby did anything really wrong or not, public perception is that someone in the administration lied at some point. Libby was the last one standing when the music stopped so he was charged, tried and convicted. There's always a fall-guy. If Bush let him serve his sentence this would all blow over. Now that he's done this, it further makes Americans believe that Bush and his administration are so stubborn and incompetent.

So you'd let a guy you believe to have nbothing wrong stay in jail just to help your public ratings? Hell of a friend you are.

[HummerTuesdays]

So you'd let a guy you believe to have nbothing wrong stay in jail just to help your public ratings? Hell of a friend you are.

It doesn't matter what *I* believe or what the president believes. That's why we have a court system.

[flyerfan116]

New sentence is now a $250,000 fine and 2 years probation instead of 2.5 years in prison. Your Amish Daddy...comment?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_trial

congrats Liddy...glad to see you won't be serving any time















oh LIBBY...my bad

[Vyce]

Good for Bush. He's not my favorite guy, by far, but this was the right decision.

Liberals will piss and moan about it, but really, he did LESS for Libby here than fucking Bill did for a lot of people. Libby wasn't pardoned, so he still has the conviction on his record, as well as a six figure fine. So he doesn't get to go to jail, boo fucking hoo.

[abudabit]

Further proof of how out of touch Bush is. Whether Libby did anything really wrong or not, public perception is that someone in the administration lied at some point.

Yeah but public perception has always been that someone in the administration lied, no matter what administration it was.

[YourAmishDaddy]

Of course not. Libby didn't nothing wrong. Lying in a federal investigation is only wrong if it not a republican doing it. I mean it's not 1996 anymore. Anything goes.

Ron Paul 2008.

[abudabit]

I don't think Bill shouldn't have gotten shit for it either. It's all a bunch of political assasination bullshit, I can't believe you of all people are buying into it. Powerful people drag other powerful people into courts and ask them hundreds of questions until they answer one incorrectly and then *boom*, you have purgery.

Instead of debates in the public eye these tactics are used. Strawman with a gavel.

[YourAmishDaddy]

The law is the law. If they drag you you or I in there and we lie we go to jail. If that's ok with people that's fine. No one ever overestimated the stupidity of the average person, or their willingness to worship their so called employees.

A nation full of people with political Stockholm's Disease. God Bless America. Sweet land of idolatry. Of thee I wish to vomit.

[wes mantooth]

A nation full of people with political Stockholm's Disease. God Bless America. Sweet land of idolatry. Of thee I wish to vomit.


No comment. Just wanted to save this jewel.


.

[Vyce]

The law is the law. If they drag you you or I in there and we lie we go to jail. If that's ok with people that's fine. No one ever overestimated the stupidity of the average person, or their willingness to worship their so called employees.

A nation full of people with political Stockholm's Disease. God Bless America. Sweet land of idolatry. Of thee I wish to vomit.

I'm curious how you feel about Sandy Berger.

Because if you think that Scooter should have done 2 1/2 years in jail for perjury, I'm sure you're OUTRAGED that Berger got away with destroying national security documents and pretty much just got a slap on the wrist for it.

SURE OF IT.

[YourAmishDaddy]

I'm curious how you feel about Sandy Berger.

Because if you think that Scooter should have done 2 1/2 years in jail for perjury, I'm sure you're OUTRAGED that Berger got away with destroying national security documents and pretty much just got a slap on the wrist for it.

SURE OF IT.

Absolutely. One more case that's led me to where I am now.

Only I am outraged over the entire system. You only care about one side of it. Your side of it.

Edit:
As a matter of fact I think I'm about the only person to ever refer to ol Sandy as "Sandy Burglar" on here...

http://www.wackbag.com/showpost.php?p=964604&postcount=19

[MrBogey]

2.5 years for what Libby did was excessive.

When did Paleocons become emo?

[bethm1b]

Clinton pardoned one of the biggest tax cheats in this country. Him and Bush are both scumbags.

[DanaReevesLungs]

So you'd let a guy you believe to have nbothing wrong stay in jail just to help your public ratings? Hell of a friend you are.

One of many problems with our judicial system. It's all about who you know and they power they have handed to them. I'm so glad you'd take friendship over being lawbiding.

[LiddyRules]

Clinton pardoned one of the biggest tax cheats in this country. Him and Bush are both scumbags. Why does this have to come down to a Bush v. Clinton argument? Both of them did bad things, we're pretty much all saying both of them did bad things, why can't we just focus on the issue at hand with people acting as though we were at the altar of Clinton cock refusing to see any of the bad the man did. We do. But that doesn't make what Bush did right nor what Clinton did right.

[MrBogey]

One of many problems with our judicial system. It's all about who you know and they power they have handed to them. I'm so glad you'd take friendship over being lawbiding.

I used the term "friend" loosely. If the president told me that he thinks someone got an unfair shake and should be pardoned or have their sentenced commuted and then told me that he won't because it would be politically risky I'd lose respect for the guy.

[LiddyRules]

I used the term "friend" loosely. If the president told me that he thinks someone got an unfair shake and should be pardoned or have their sentenced commuted and then told me that he won't because it would be politically risky I'd lose respect for the guy. What if you learned he commuted the sentence because he feared said "friend" spilling dirt on the administration? Would you still respect him then?

[MrBogey]

What if you learned he commuted the sentence because he feared said "friend" spilling dirt on the administration? Would you still respect him then?

So that's the latest conspiracy? Whatever.

[LiddyRules]

So that's the latest conspiracy? Whatever. Right, because Cheney's chief of staff wouldn't have any dirt on a scandal-ridden administration.

But in this crazy hypothetical universe, what if it was true? Would you lose respect if you learned that Bush helped Libby to save his own ass?

[MrBogey]

Right, because Cheney's chief of staff wouldn't have any dirt on a scandal-ridden administration.

But in this crazy hypothetical universe, what if it was true? Would you lose respect if you learned that Bush helped Libby to save his own ass?

Of course I would. But it's not as if there weren't people demanding clemency already. I mean, it's not like Libby killed some cops or anything.

[mendozathejew]

libby was gona keep his mouth shut, like he has done through the whole grueling process. bush commuted the sentance because hes loyal to a fault

[YourAmishDaddy]

Call it common courtesy all criminals have for each other.

[SKEPTIC]

Yeah, Bush you are RIGHT. These judges are SO out of control.

Oh, wait. You were the one that appointed that judge. :D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cia_leak_judge;_ylt=AldRQVH215jUfKcjBP25B5YDW7oF

[Schmed]

2.5 years for what Libby did was excessive.

When did Paleocons become emo?

I'd like to know why Sandy Berger did not get investigated, this motherfucker got caught stealing classified documents from the National Archive, oh, I forgot he's a dem, so naturally they are never investigated.

[Sct Ptersns Twn]

The law is the law. If they drag you you or I in there and we lie we go to jail. If that's ok with people that's fine. No one ever overestimated the stupidity of the average person, or their willingness to worship their so called employees.

A nation full of people with political Stockholm's Disease. God Bless America. Sweet land of idolatry. Of thee I wish to vomit.

The law is the law, anyone of you idiots break it you are in jail just like myself or the "AMISH ONE".:clap::clap::clap: I cannot believe you actually side with the fucking Govt on pardons. It is complete and utter bullshit. These mutherfuckers in washington and everywhere else give three fucking shits about you. Well, unless you line there wallets with cash. :arrrh:

I am not a liberal nor a conservative. I am a realist, someone that calls a spade a spade, votes his conscience, all the way from the county vote to the President. If I don't like someone on the ballet I write a name in. It is my god given right, not a waste of a vote but my right. If most of us Americans would do the same, the fuckos in the government would be sure to get the hint.

*insert Union Jack here* and go fuck your mother. :action-sm

[LiddyRules]

he's a dem, so naturally they are never investigated.:icon_roll

[ImARealMensch]

A few things stink here:
1. Sentences are not commuted until the person at least STARTS to serve it.
2. This judge was a BUSH APPOINTEE, and the Prosecutor was BUSH APPOINTEE, it shows that Bush is out for his buddies.
3. Commutations are not granted while cases are still active, which this is.

FU to Bush.

[Johnny Utah]

ah fantastic. Im glad there's still misguided conservative douchebags hanging out here.

LOOK OUT FOR THE EVIL LIBERALLLSSSS.

christ just die already.

Good for Bush. He's not my favorite guy, by far, but this was the right decision.

Liberals will piss and moan about it, but really, he did LESS for Libby here than fucking Bill did for a lot of people. Libby wasn't pardoned, so he still has the conviction on his record, as well as a six figure fine. So he doesn't get to go to jail, boo fucking hoo.

[bethm1b]

What pisses me off is that he ignored the two vorder guards who are in prison for shooting a drug dealer and made it a priority to commute this because the sentance was too harsh. Such bullshit.

[Southpaw]

[QUOTE] Why does this have to come down to a Bush v. Clinton argument? [QUOTE]

Because it's all they got - the only defense that remains for Bush is that he's "just doin' what Clinton did." It's nice to see the high moral standards the Right imagines for itself in practice. Since tu coque is a logical fallacy, it hardly seems worth mentioning the irony of arguing that President Clinton's record ought to be the ethical and legal arbiter when, at the time, their tantrums argued precicly the opposite. Since they have no shame or reason, it's pointless.

For those old enough to remember, it's instructive to recall how the Left treated Clinton at the same point in his term. I remember the "liberal media" (fueled by Drudge and rightwing talk radio) hounding the man for "lying under oath" about a blowjob; Christopher Hitchens writing No One Left To Lie To - a book I still return to for inspiration when choosing principles over politicians, Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn circulating the "real reasons" why Clinton should be impeached, Al Gore practically hiding from him (despite high approval ratings with the public) on the campaign trail...

Clinton was regarded as a huge disappointment on the Left. It took the potent cocktail of incompetance and arrogance that is the Bush Administration to rehablitate his image and stimulate nostalgia for his Presidency. Still, even with the advantage of comparison with Bush and the not insignificant effects of Clinton's charm, only the most hacky of the left would defend Marc Rich's pardon by reference to Bush 41's pardon of the Iran/Contra criminals.

[YourAmishDaddy]

Well this is the same Bush administration that when two American soldiers were kidnapped and Al Sadr essentially told us to get out we did. And left them. So I mean patriotism and all this jingoistic bullshit really means a lot.

But save a convicted buddy from going to some milquetoast country club "prison" in a heartbeat.

The Bush Administration.. Leave No Crony Behind.

[YourAmishDaddy]

Because it's all they got - the only defense that remains for Bush is that he's "just doin' what Clinton did." It's nice to see the high moral standards the Right imagines for itself in practice. Since tu coque is a logical fallacy, it hardly seems worth mentioning the irony of arguing that President Clinton's record ought to be the ethical and legal arbiter when, at the time, their tantrums argued precicly the opposite. Since they have no shame or reason, it's pointless.

For those old enough to remember, it's instructive to recall how the Left treated Clinton at the same point in his term. I remember the "liberal media" (fueled by Drudge and rightwing talk radio) hounding the man for "lying under oath" about a blowjob; Christopher Hitchens writing No One Left To Lie To - a book I still return to for inspiration when choosing principles over politicians, Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn circulating the "real reasons" why Clinton should be impeached, Al Gore practically hiding from him (despite high approval ratings with the public) on the campaign trail...

Clinton was regarded as a huge disappointment on the Left. It took the potent cocktail of incompetance and arrogance that is the Bush Administration to rehablitate his image and stimulate nostalgia for his Presidency. Still, even with the advantage of comparison with Bush and the not insignificant effects of Clinton's charm, only the most hacky of the left would defend Marc Rich's pardon by reference to Bush 41's pardon of the Iran/Contra criminals.

Dead on.


Clinton looks almost tame compared to this schmuck.

Bush could make me revisit the finer qualities of Jimmy Carter or the subtlety and charm of Nixon.

I had always considered Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter the absolute worst presidents in generations. It took this loser to come along and shatter every record in the books. Having Bush as a president is like Affirmative Action Meets The Lucky Sperm Club.

And before one of Pavlov's mutts bark out "yeah but what about Kerry" Who gives a fuck?

If there was a just and loving God the last election between Bush and Kerry would have never happened. And those two cunts rise to fame would be nothing more than arguing over who would change the deep fry grease at a Burger King.

[MrBogey]

Dead on.


Clinton looks almost tame compared to this schmuck.


The worst part is you believe that.

[YourAmishDaddy]

The worst part is you believe that.

No. The sad part is at one point in time you actually posted something worth reading.

[MrBogey]

No. The sad part is at one point in time you actually posted something worth reading.

Seriously, just look at it.

Clinton pardoned tax evaders, terrorists, murderers, and any other group that helped him politically or gave him cash. Pardoning a guy who got pinched for lying about who told him something first when it was immaterial to the investigation since the prosecutor had already uncovered the leak (Armitage) is nothing like what Clinton did.

Look, we know you hate Bush. There's really not much of anything to like about the guy. But you're taking this like a dude who got cheated on. Bush isn't great but c'mon...Clinton level bad? That's crazy talk.

[poopiebottoms]

On Earth 2:

Treason is not an imprisonable offense...


Wait, What?

[YourAmishDaddy]

Seriously, just look at it.

Clinton pardoned tax evaders, terrorists, murderers, and any other group that helped him politically or gave him cash. Pardoning a guy who got pinched for lying about who told him something first when it was immaterial to the investigation since the prosecutor had already uncovered the leak (Armitage) is nothing like what Clinton did.

Look, we know you hate Bush. There's really not much of anything to like about the guy. But you're taking this like a dude who got cheated on. Bush isn't great but c'mon...Clinton level bad? That's crazy talk.

No he's actually worse. I mean I witnessed the Clinton years up close and personal just like the Bush years. In the 90's I was an up and coming guy in democrat circles who saw these people firsthand sell out everything they believed in because of one man. Bill Clinton. I saw them make all kinds of excuses, justify anything his corrupt administration did, buy every lie he told and ask for more.

Then I came to a conclusion it's just not for me to run in those circles. So I naturally gravitated to the people who were making rational sense. Using the law, showing how one man wasn't important enough to subvert the Constitution for. Showing how Bill Clinton, the most powerful guy in the nation used his power to keep a woman named Paula Jones from having her fair day in court.

All those people that taught me all that stuff about the rule of law, and justice, and the little guy. Well came 2001 all that flew out the window. Bush was in, Clinton was out and I was on the team until one thing went wrong.

Immigration.

Then I started to look at the spending, and everyone who was with me told me to just be quiet, this was normal. Then the towers went down, and shit totally went nuts after that. We started turning on each others patriotism, and curtailing freedoms, and rendering and disappearing people, wiretapping, and suspending the writ of Habeas Corpus.

We started off in Afghanistan, hunting bin Laden who everyone wanted dead, and all of a sudden ended up in Iraq for whatever fucking reason. And everyone who asked "why?" was labeled un-American, and terrorist enablers.

And all those super smart people turned into bigger fucking idiots than the ones I got away from. They not only believe that one man is more important than the Constitution and the country, but that Bush IS the country. That disagreeing with Bush IS disagreeing with America. Like the man is some god like creature never to be questioned.

So yeah. I look at a Bush as far more deadly and damaging than Bill Clinton ever was. Because the super smart, principled people I looked up to buy this bullshit. I mean we expect democrats to be shitty, but when republicans are even shittier it's even worse.

[ChimneyFish]

If there was a just and loving God the last election between Bush and Kerry would have never happened.



If there was a just and loving God, it would would just end this already.

Enough is enough.

[YourAmishDaddy]

If there was a just and loving God, it would would just end this already.

Enough is enough.

:clap:

[MrBogey]

Like I said, you're being hyperbolic about what's going on. Your perceived loss of freedoms because of Bush doesn't jive with our actual freedoms.

[mendozathejew]

So yeah. I look at a Bush as far more deadly and damaging than Bill Clinton ever was. Because the super smart, principled people I looked up to buy this bullshit. I mean we expect democrats to be shitty, but when republicans are even shittier it's even worse.

they turned into the same asshole long ago for me. Clinton just has the personality skills to make people still like/love him. but they failed in getting bin laden the same way, they failed the country in terms of its safety in the same way in my book- Bush with Iraq, and Clinton with allowing l qaeda become what it did. politically, they both do what they want. Bush doesn't give a shit what you think, and Clinton knows hes got the charm to make it all ok with most people afterwards.

Clinton pardoned one of the biggest tax cheats in US history- Marc Rich. whose attorney was scooter Libby., and Libby gets pardoned by Bush. that basically says it all

[Razor Roman]

Scooter Libby was conviced for covering up a crime, by a special prosecutor who determined that no crime even existed. It was a politically motivated prosecution. (And the liberals who get annoyed when Republicans say "But Clinton did this..." will come back and say "But Kenneth Starr did this.....")

How can you go to jail for covering up a crime that didn't happen?

[YourAmishDaddy]

Clinton pardoned one of the biggest tax cheats in US history- Marc Rich. whose attorney was scooter Libby., and Libby gets pardoned by Bush. that basically says it all

:clap: Exactly sir.

[Capt.Caveman]

No he's actually worse. I mean I witnessed the Clinton years up close and personal just like the Bush years. In the 90's I was an up and coming guy in democrat circles who saw these people firsthand sell out everything they believed in because of one man. Bill Clinton. I saw them make all kinds of excuses, justify anything his corrupt administration did, buy every lie he told and ask for more.

Then I came to a conclusion it's just not for me to run in those circles. So I naturally gravitated to the people who were making rational sense. Using the law, showing how one man wasn't important enough to subvert the Constitution for. Showing how Bill Clinton, the most powerful guy in the nation used his power to keep a woman named Paula Jones from having her fair day in court.

All those people that taught me all that stuff about the rule of law, and justice, and the little guy. Well came 2001 all that flew out the window. Bush was in, Clinton was out and I was on the team until one thing went wrong.

Immigration.

Then I started to look at the spending, and everyone who was with me told me to just be quiet, this was normal. Then the towers went down, and shit totally went nuts after that. We started turning on each others patriotism, and curtailing freedoms, and rendering and disappearing people, wiretapping, and suspending the writ of Habeas Corpus.

We started off in Afghanistan, hunting bin Laden who everyone wanted dead, and all of a sudden ended up in Iraq for whatever fucking reason. And everyone who asked "why?" was labeled un-American, and terrorist enablers.

And all those super smart people turned into bigger fucking idiots than the ones I got away from. They not only believe that one man is more important than the Constitution and the country, but that Bush IS the country. That disagreeing with Bush IS disagreeing with America. Like the man is some god like creature never to be questioned.

So yeah. I look at a Bush as far more deadly and damaging than Bill Clinton ever was. Because the super smart, principled people I looked up to buy this bullshit. I mean we expect democrats to be shitty, but when republicans are even shittier it's even worse.

ok i disagree with ou (again) The reason we wenty into Iraq is that they wouldn't let the un inspectors search./ and don't be so quick to put all the blame on bush for 911. clintons more to blame then anyone. embassy bombing, uss cole, and trade center 1. clintons response........crickets....democrats are pussies. they wanna talk everything out. these savages don't understand talking. so wire tap them, water torture them and even make them get in a naked pyramid. Do something!! but no lets practice diplomacy

[YourAmishDaddy]

ok i disagree with ou (again) The reason we wenty into Iraq is that they wouldn't let the un inspectors search./ and don't be so quick to put all the blame on bush for 911. clintons more to blame then anyone. embassy bombing, uss cole, and trade center 1. clintons response........crickets....democrats are pussies. they wanna talk everything out. these savages don't understand talking. so wire tap them, water torture them and even make them get in a naked pyramid. Do something!! but no lets practice diplomacy

Well Saddam had allowed the inspectors in and basically let them have the run of the place up until just prior to the invasion. That's just fact. And I never blamed Bush for 9-11. Although the most logical things (like taking care of the borders, sea ports, disallowing visas from middle eastern countries) never happened, nor happen today.

You're still playing the democrat/republican game. What I'm trying to do is show you a different view of it all.

And people bring up the USS Cole, and the embassies, and the first WTC attack. And how many of those people involved in that after Bush was sworn in did he go after. The Cole investigation was dropped. And after 911 the CIA unit charged with tracking down bin Laden was disbanded. As for the first WTC incident we did get the primaries involved in that.

What I will say about 9-11 and terrorism is it's not war that fixes it. War essentially only breeds more people to go after you. Dogged police work, investigating, and most importantly intelligence are the major tools to stop terrorism.

Which is why outing CIA agents is counterproductive.

[SuperGolfer]

On Earth 2:

Treason is not an imprisonable offense...


Wait, What?

That's the one thing I could never understand about this case. It's pure fucking treason (a capital offense, no less) no matter how you look at it.

Oh, the ass-covering!

[mendozathejew]

And people bring up the USS Cole, and the embassies, and the first WTC attack. And how many of those people involved in that after Bush was sworn in did he go after. The Cole investigation was dropped. And after 911 the CIA unit charged with tracking down bin Laden was disbanded. As for the first WTC incident we did get the primaries involved in that.

What I will say about 9-11 and terrorism is it's not war that fixes it. War essentially only breeds more people to go after you. Dogged police work, investigating, and most importantly intelligence are the major tools to stop terrorism.

Which is why outing CIA agents is counterproductive.


preventing 9-11 was an FBI matter, not CIA. and the FBI had pieces to the puzzle, couldnt do anything with it because it was a trainwreck under louis freeh and bill clinton. it just wasnt a priority for clinton. Freeh was only off the job 8 days on 9/11/01. and he says there was no we he/we could have prevented 911 at that point.

by the 99,00' it was too late to take out the taliban and the training camps, even kill bin laden, and expect that this would stop the process that alreayd had begun. too many people were trained by al qaeda , too much money was spread around. and our FBI wasnt capable of doing what it should have been doing.

that was the main problem. and it was a problem of the clinton administration. but bush really did know this, and he took his sweet time deciding what/if he should do about it, and clearly didnt decide quick enough.

[Quexul]

Good for Bush. He's not my favorite guy, by far, but this was the right decision.

Liberals will piss and moan about it, but really, he did LESS for Libby here than fucking Bill did for a lot of people. Libby wasn't pardoned, so he still has the conviction on his record, as well as a six figure fine. So he doesn't get to go to jail, boo fucking hoo.

Libby wasn't pardoned *yet*. Wait for it to happen. And regardless of what Clinton did, his pardonees didn't do significant damage to the CIA's investigation into weapons of mass destruction (Valerie Plame's beat), nor to the existence of companies used for cover identities (Plame's "employer" Brewster Jennings was also outed), nor to those whose lives might now be endangered in other countries because of their ties to a now-known CIA covert (and she was, "desk jockey" comments notwithstanding) operative.

Some war on terror. War on integrity, perhaps. {ProfJonathan, aka Quexul}

[Quexul]

2.5 years for what Libby did was excessive.

2.5 years for what Libby did was per the Federal sentencing guidelines, recently upheld by the Supreme Court. {ProfJonathan, aka Quexul}

[YourAmishDaddy]

Libby wasn't pardoned *yet*. Wait for it to happen. And regardless of what Clinton did, his pardonees didn't do significant damage to the CIA's investigation into weapons of mass destruction (Valerie Plame's beat), nor to the existence of companies used for cover identities (Plame's "employer" Brewster Jennings was also outed), nor to those whose lives might now be endangered in other countries because of their ties to a now-known CIA covert (and she was, "desk jockey" comments notwithstanding) operative.

Some war on terror. War on integrity, perhaps. {ProfJonathan, aka Quexul}


Wow, someone here actually gets it. Brav-fucking-O. I could not have said it better myself.

[MrBogey]

Libby wasn't pardoned *yet*. Wait for it to happen. And regardless of what Clinton did, his pardonees didn't do significant damage to the CIA's investigation into weapons of mass destruction (Valerie Plame's beat), nor to the existence of companies used for cover identities (Plame's "employer" Brewster Jennings was also outed), nor to those whose lives might now be endangered in other countries because of their ties to a now-known CIA covert (and she was, "desk jockey" comments notwithstanding) operative.

Some war on terror. War on integrity, perhaps. {ProfJonathan, aka Quexul}

It's amazing what some rubes believe. Brewster Jennings wasn't a "front company". It was grease for a travel VISA. No one got endangered and no one was killed.

[SKEPTIC]

It's amazing what some rubes believe. Brewster Jennings wasn't a "front company". It was grease for a travel VISA.

So, The Washington Post is a bunch of rubes :icon_roll

Those Washington Post "rubes" also exposed Watergate back in the day:)

Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm

By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03

The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a CIA front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the original disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.

The company's identity, Brewster-Jennings & Associates,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3

[MrBogey]

So, The Washington Post is a bunch of rubes :icon_roll

Those Washington Post "rubes" also exposed Watergate back in the day:)



http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3

Look up Brewster-Jennings. No references outside of her campaign donation and an entry ona business registry. Front Companies are more involved.

And WP isn't the rubes. They're counting on others being the rubes.

[SKEPTIC]

I see your point.

After checking Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_organization

I'd say that it could more precisely be called a "brass plate firm."

Wikipedia makes a distinction between a "brass plate firm" and a "front company."

In the business world, front organizations such as front companies or shell corporations are used to shield the parent company from legal liability

Intelligence agencies use front organizations to provide "cover", plausible occupations and means of income, for their covert agents. These may include legitimate organizations, such as charity, religious or journalism organizations; or brass plate firms which exist solely to provide a plausible background story, occupation, and means of income.

My point was just that it's been widely reported in the mainstream media as being a "front company."

But, you are right, ultimately there was no "company" to damage.

[Sinn Fein]

I don't know what the big deal is. There was the same level of outrage in the media when Clinton opened his Pardon Clearing House. Oh wait...

[YourAmishDaddy]

I love how ten years later people still equivocate for this douche in office. No matter what he does they explain everything away by saying what Clinton did.

So basically a piece of shit that's on par with Clinton in everything he does is fine. But Clinton, oh he was bad, but a republican that seems to do the same shit is good.

This is the GOP today. "A Party No Better Than Clinton"

"Well mommy everybody else does it... Little Billy did it too.... "

[queeby]

I love how ten years later people still equivocate for this douche in office. No matter what he does they explain everything away by saying what Clinton did.

So basically a piece of shit that's on par with Clinton in everything he does is fine. But Clinton, oh he was bad, but a republican that seems to do the same shit is good.

This is the GOP today. "A Party No Better Than Clinton"

"Well mommy everybody else does it... Little Billy did it too.... "


This is the best explantion I have heard.

Bill Clinton is a douche, and the pardons that he handed out were corrupt, just like the ones that Bush handed out. One is not better than the other, in much the same way that the Democrats are no better than the Republicans (or vice versa).

[MrBogey]

It's not "Clinton did it so it's okay".

It's "Clinton did it, where was your outrage then?"

When a guy like Conyers demands there be investigations into the presidents pardon power after staying quiet on pardons that were several orders more outrageous then how can anybody think that there's anything but politics behind the outrage? Especially when Clinton's still around and active in politics. What do you expect?

Once again, Libby's commutation is by far not anywhere near as controversial as Clinton's pardons. The people equivocating them are either ignorant or simply dishonest. I know you hate Bush but if you could just divorce the seething anger you have for the man you could probably start thinking logically again.

[Southpaw]

Clinton's pardons are irrelavant to whether or not Bush's pardons are right or wrong. As I wrote above, Clinton's pardons cannot be defended by the fact that Bush 41 pardoned Iran/Contra criminals.

That said, were any of Clinton's pardons for an employee in the excecutive branch who was convicted of crimes carried out on the job?

[weakside]

Clinton's pardons are irrelavant to whether or not Bush's pardons are right or wrong.

This is exactly the point.

Why did Clinton's name even come up in the first place? Why not argue what Carter did, or Kennedy, or even Washington? What one president did has nothing to do with the acts of another. It's a child’s argument to defend something by saying, "Well, he did it too and he was worse!"

If you agree with what Bush did, fine. If you don't, fine. But the argument should be regarding his act and his act alone.

[Capt.Caveman]

Well Saddam had allowed the inspectors in and basically let them have the run of the place up until just prior to the invasion. That's just fact. And I never blamed Bush for 9-11. Although the most logical things (like taking care of the borders, sea ports, disallowing visas from middle eastern countries) never happened, nor happen today.

You're still playing the democrat/republican game. What I'm trying to do is show you a different view of it all.

And people bring up the USS Cole, and the embassies, and the first WTC attack. And how many of those people involved in that after Bush was sworn in did he go after. The Cole investigation was dropped. And after 911 the CIA unit charged with tracking down bin Laden was disbanded. As for the first WTC incident we did get the primaries involved in that.

What I will say about 9-11 and terrorism is it's not war that fixes it. War essentially only breeds more people to go after you. Dogged police work, investigating, and most importantly intelligence are the major tools to stop terrorism.

Which is why outing CIA agents is counterproductive.

sadaam would only let the inspectors search certain areas after chance after chance we had to take action. and heres a way to stop terrorism. PULL THESE SAVAGES VISAS. half of them are here on "student" visas anyway. and the reason i keep playing dem/rep card is you sound like a democrat, you may not be but you sure as shit sound like one

[YourAmishDaddy]

And I never blamed Bush for 9-11. Although the most logical things (like taking care of the borders, sea ports, disallowing visas from middle eastern countries) never happened, nor happen today.

and heres a way to stop terrorism. PULL THESE SAVAGES VISAS. half of them are here on "student" visas anyway. and the reason i keep playing dem/rep card is you sound like a democrat,

Do I?

[MrBogey]

Once again, people mention Clinton not to excuse Bush but to simply ask, where was the outrage.

[LiddyRules]

Once again, people mention Clinton not to excuse Bush but to simply ask, where was the outrage. Yeah, no one was ever angry with Clinton in this country.

[YourAmishDaddy]

Yeah, no one was ever angry with Clinton in this country.

Yeah I know. I wrote him a thank you letter and baked cookies.

I got my station fined once because of that fat fuck. But no, I just loved the guy.

[MrBogey]

Yeah, no one was ever angry with Clinton in this country.

Apparently not. The guy still is loved by a huge section of the country. His friends in Congress who are now going after Bush defended him back then.

want people to stop bringing up Clinton? Just have him go away or at the very least let's see some Democrats condemn his actions. With Libby, conservatives aren't excusing him based upon Clinton but rather based upon the fact that fitzgerald just wanted to nail him and knew the source of the leaks already.

[LiddyRules]

Apparently not. The guy still is loved by a huge section of the country. His friends in Congress who are now going after Bush defended him back then. But a section of the country still loves Bush. And who knows what will happen when he gets out of office.

When talking about the Clinton PRESIDENCY, not afterwards, to act like there was no outrage is ridiculous. Clinton-hatred made FOX News into a powerhouse, Gore avoided him during campaigning and Bush winning on bringing back "integrity." There certainly was outrage during Clinton's presidency.

[mendozathejew]

the whole clinton vs bush thing- what doesnt get turned into a pissing contest nowadays? this isnt any different

[Sinn Fein]

I don't know what the big deal is. There was the same level of outrage in the media when Clinton opened his Pardon Clearing House. Oh wait...

It's not "Clinton did it so it's okay".

It's "Clinton did it, where was your outrage then?"

When a guy like Conyers demands there be investigations into the presidents pardon power after staying quiet on pardons that were several orders more outrageous then how can anybody think that there's anything but politics behind the outrage? Especially when Clinton's still around and active in politics. What do you expect?

Once again, Libby's commutation is by far not anywhere near as controversial as Clinton's pardons. The people equivocating them are either ignorant or simply dishonest. I know you hate Bush but if you could just divorce the seething anger you have for the man you could probably start thinking logically again.

Once again, people mention Clinton not to excuse Bush but to simply ask, where was the outrage.

Exactly. :)

[Vyce]

Clinton's pardons are irrelavant to whether or not Bush's pardons are right or wrong. As I wrote above, Clinton's pardons cannot be defended by the fact that Bush 41 pardoned Iran/Contra criminals.

That said, were any of Clinton's pardons for an employee in the excecutive branch who was convicted of crimes carried out on the job?

No. Clinton's pardons were for various different criminals, including several who, by today's standards, would be considered terrorists.

Bogey's right. People aren't bringing up Clinton to excuse Bush. They're bringing up Clinton for two very good reasons. One, to expose the hypocrisy of many of those criticizing Bush's COMMUTING Libby's sentence (different than the outright pardons that Bill gave), who mostly gave Bill a free pass. There are people out there right now who are being completely assinine about it - "OMG IMPEACH BUSH NOW FOR THIS!!!" - and don't really care about what Clinton did, even though the argument could quite easily be made that Clinton did much, MUCH worse with his pardon power. It's all about degree and reaction. What Clinton did was arguably much worse than what Bush did, yet Bush gets more harsh criticism. Perhaps some more Bush Derangement Syndrome?

The other good reason? To point out the hypocrisy of Clinton himself. Out of the 6+ BILLION people on this planet, the Clintons really are the LAST two people on earth who should be talking shit about the current president abusing his pardon privileges.

[Southpaw]

Whatever the stated reasons for bringing up Clinton, the effect is to either distract from discussing the Libby issue on its own terms or to evalute Bush's actions in a relativistic context. Does Bush receive a free pass until he matches or exceeds the depravity of Clinton?

As for the assertion that the media didn't cover Clinton's pardons with the same ferocity it is covering Bush's, it's just not true:

"President Bill Clinton was widely criticized for some pardons and other acts of executive clemency [1]; collectively, this controversy has sometimes been called Pardongate in the press.[2] Federal prosecutor Mary Jo White was appointed to investigate the pardons. She was later replaced by James Comey. Comey found no grounds to indict Clinton."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controversy)

"UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Larry, it's a pleasure to talk to you.

KING: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to ask Mr. Woodward, is all -- presidency -- the president's pardon power absolute, and when will we give Bill Clinton a break? Thanks, Larry.

KING: OK.

WOODWARD: It is an absolute constitutional power. Look at this -- you know, your question suggests that it's unfair to examine this and have all of this furor over it. But the people who are most upset are, in fact, not the Republicans, but the Democrats. Lots of people who are in Democratic Party have kind of said, what was going on, why did this happen?

So, I'm not sure that this is not one of those things that really needs to be looked at, because...

KING: So, there's not, in your opinion, a Republican witch-hunt here?

WOODWARD: Well, Dan Burton all of a sudden in his investigations has a lot of credibility, and if you've listened to the hearings, a lot of the Democrats join Burton in condemning Clinton, or raising very serious questions about all of this. "

(http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0103/02/lkl.00.html)

"Pardons may tarnish Clinton legacy
(CNN) -- Many U.S. presidents have left a trail of controversial pardons in their wake. Former President Bill Clinton is no exception.

The 176 people who were pardoned or had prison sentences commuted by Clinton on his last day in office include: An accused tax swindler who is the former husband of a major Clinton donor; two felons who paid Clinton's brother-in-law $400,000 to lobby on their behalf; and the former president's own half-brother.

Adding fuel to the firestorm is the fact that some of the pardons bypassed the usual Justice Department procedures.

The web of close Clinton associates linked with the pardon requests extends into the successful New York senate campaign of Hillary Rodham Clinton, putting the former first lady directly in the line of fire.

The pardon of billionaire fugitive Marc Rich triggered the initial barrage of criticism, opening the door to a federal investigation. "

(http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/pardons/)

"Pardongate Play-by-Play
By Jessica Reaves
Getting a headache from all this convoluted pardon talk? Tired of squinting at news reports, trying to decipher the meaning of the latest sordid developments? Never fear: TIME.com is here with a handy Pardongate timeline. Check back often for the latest news.... "

(http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,100795,00.html)

[Trucker Pat]

The president can pardon ANYONE he wants to at his leisure. Executive privlage.... He should pardon Manson on his way out, just for a goof

[Capt.Caveman]

Originally Posted by LiddyRules

Yeah, no one was ever angry with Clinton in this country.


i couldn't care that good ole billy boy got a blow job in the oval office. good for him. have you seen his wife.....eecccchhh!!! I just think he wasn't aggresive enough


Originally Posted by youramishdaddy
Do I?


I agree don't let NEW ones in but you gotta pull the OLD ones too

[MrBogey]

The statement wasn't that no one in the country was mad at Clinton.

[YourAmishDaddy]

And this is where I punch out. When the whole discussion bogs down into equivocation and non sequiturs. This is what the GOP is great at. They stall, they toss blame elsewhere, they never accept fault, never apologize, never admit anything. If Bush was caught beating a baby to death with a tire iron some asshole would bring up some obscure recollection of Bill Clinton doing the exact same thing back in Hope Arkansas in his college years. And vice versa.

When it gets to the point of idiotic questions like "where was the outrage then?" As if Wackbag was alive and kicking in 19 fucking 96 and we all were here and knew each others moods and level of outrage.

I'm almost to the point of thinking the Founding Fathers were imbeciles. Leaving the power to the "people." When the average person views politics like they were a fucking Islanders vs Rangers game. And the rabble only knows the "home team."

Or better yet the average Plebian is like taking a girlfriend to a game and she roots for the team with the prettiest color uniforms.

"I'm a democrat/republican/insert your political hack insipid affiliation here, and I will support my criminals no matter what, no matter what they do. No matter what the facts are, and if you provide a debate and a modicum of common sense i'll just put my hands over my ears, and hum like a five year old. And if you ever corner me in my assertions i'll just bring out my trump card. the other guy did it too..."

Die.

[LiddyRules]

And this is where I punch out. When the whole discussion bogs down into equivocation and non sequiturs. This is what the GOP is great at. They stall, they toss blame elsewhere, they never accept fault, never apologize, never admit anything. What do you mean? This thread is about comparing Bush and Clinton. It has nothing to do with something Bush has done recently that we ought to look at on the merits of the situation at hand.

[Sinn Fein]

And this is where I punch out. When the whole discussion bogs down into equivocation and non sequiturs. This is what the GOP is great at. They stall, they toss blame elsewhere, they never accept fault, never apologize, never admit anything. If Bush was caught beating a baby to death with a tire iron some asshole would bring up some obscure recollection of Bill Clinton doing the exact same thing back in Hope Arkansas in his college years. And vice versa.

When it gets to the point of idiotic questions like "where was the outrage then?" As if Wackbag was alive and kicking in 19 fucking 96 and we all were here and knew each others moods and level of outrage.

I'm almost to the point of thinking the Founding Fathers were imbeciles. Leaving the power to the "people." When the average person views politics like they were a fucking Islanders vs Rangers game. And the rabble only knows the "home team."

Or better yet the average Plebian is like taking a girlfriend to a game and she roots for the team with the prettiest color uniforms.

"I'm a democrat/republican/insert your political hack insipid affiliation here, and I will support my criminals no matter what, no matter what they do. No matter what the facts are, and if you provide a debate and a modicum of common sense i'll just put my hands over my ears, and hum like a five year old. And if you ever corner me in my assertions i'll just bring out my trump card. the other guy did it too..."

Die.

This might be the unintentionally funniest post I have ever read.

[MrBogey]

I'm almost to the point of thinking the Founding Fathers were imbeciles. Leaving the power to the "people."

The founders didn't leave the power to the "people". The "people" being every being over the age of 18. They left it vested in those who were affected by the laws the most. People since then have decided on universal democratic suffrage as a good idea. It's not.

As to the Bush thing. You're stuck in the mindset that people here love Bush. We don't. We just don't hate him to the degree that everything he does is unimaginably horrible. And if someone defends him, it's not necessarily because he's Bush. What, are you saying to be fair we have to go against our principles just to give each side even shit?

The Libby commutation is a minor issue. The outrage people are having ovver it is just insane by comparison.

[Sinn Fein]

Agreed, and the outrage we're talking about is what was played up in the media, etc. Bashing the president has become the fashionable thing to do, and that's half of the reason most of the loudmouths are doing it. It's not about here on Wackbag. So, that means you can take your point about Wackbag not being here in 1996 and... well, you know the rest.

[YourAmishDaddy]

When you say "where was the outrage?" you're definitely levelling it at us that disagree with this. None of us were here then. Outrage in the media is a non starter. A whole fucking network was built to "outrage over Clinton" Hell there's no outrage whatsoever about Libby in the media. Who cares other than Chris Matthews?

And bashing the president is fashionable? Since when? That fucker, andthe rest of those bastards work for us. Do you employ anybody? Well I employ 33 people. And I can assure you they don't run the ship here. They will when they fuck up face the consequences of their actions.

But when a politician, who works for all of us fucks up people rush in to make excuses. It's like step and fetch it whenever some piece of shit with a letter by their name people like knowingly does anything wrong. I don't care what side of the aisle.

If someone on my staff screws up I could care less if they're a democrat, or a republican, hell I'd fire my own mother if she was costing me money, robbing me blind, breaking my rules. So why do I have to kiss some Washington politician's ass? It's the hero worship and water carrying and shucking and jiving that goes on because well it's our guys, and we have to be loyal at all costs.

No one ever holds these people accountable whatsoever if the guys doing it are "our boys." And accountability, like most things starts at home. When you turn a blind eye to these people they rob you blind. "Oh well it's just a little pardon, or commutation" Yeah and stealing pens and staplers at the office means they're probably ripping you off somewhere else.

My issue is not with whether you like any of these people, but your unwillingness to hold any of them accountable. No one ever sticks up their hand and says "ok, my foul" in DC. And that's perfectly fine in many of your books. And you get to pay for it.

[Southpaw]

Outrage in the media is a non starter. A whole fucking network was built to "outrage over Clinton"


I didn't even include Fox News in my post because the argument that there was no comparable media outrage then is refuted just by looking at the so-called liberal media. The "Clinton News Network" coverage alone shows that claim to be full of shit. Keep in mind that this all happened just as the new President was being sworn in and it was still a huge story that made headlines for months afterwords.

[Sinn Fein]

When you say "where was the outrage?" you're definitely levelling it at us that disagree with this. None of us were here then. Outrage in the media is a non starter. A whole fucking network was built to "outrage over Clinton" Hell there's no outrage whatsoever about Libby in the media. Who cares other than Chris Matthews?

When I say? Who the fuck are you to tell me what I mean by what I say? When I question the lack of outrage back back then, I'm leveling the criticism at the media and all of the others with the false outrage now. If you're in that group, so be it. It's not specifically directed at people in this thread.

And bashing the president is fashionable? Since when? That fucker, andthe rest of those bastards work for us. Do you employ anybody? Well I employ 33 people. And I can assure you they don't run the ship here. They will when they fuck up face the consequences of their actions.

Just look all of the celebrities who are getting press by shooting their mouths off. If it wasn't in vogue, they wouldn't be doing it. Fuck, Al Franken used it as a springboard to try and launch a political career.

By the way, I thought you punched out. Would you like me to hold you accountable and ban you from the thread? :action-sm

Consequences? What consequences could there possibly be for GWB? He's not up for re-election. What consequences would there be for an employee of yours who took a shit on top of your desk right at 5PM on their last day?

But when a politician, who works for all of us fucks up people rush in to make excuses. It's like step and fetch it whenever some piece of shit with a letter by their name people like knowingly does anything wrong. I don't care what side of the aisle.

If someone on my staff screws up I could care less if they're a democrat, or a republican, hell I'd fire my own mother if she was costing me money, robbing me blind, breaking my rules. So why do I have to kiss some Washington politician's ass? It's the hero worship and water carrying and shucking and jiving that goes on because well it's our guys, and we have to be loyal at all costs.

No one ever holds these people accountable whatsoever if the guys doing it are "our boys." And accountability, like most things starts at home. When you turn a blind eye to these people they rob you blind. "Oh well it's just a little pardon, or commutation" Yeah and stealing pens and staplers at the office means they're probably ripping you off somewhere else.

My issue is not with whether you like any of these people, but your unwillingness to hold any of them accountable. No one ever sticks up their hand and says "ok, my foul" in DC. And that's perfectly fine in many of your books. And you get to pay for it.

If you think expect that any individual elected official is ever going to be truly held accountable for anything in this county, you are living in a dream world. My issue is that too many people believe everything the media tells them and base their opinions/decisions on that. As far as the Libby thing goes, I think once it's all said and done he'll have paid enough of a price.

[bethm1b]

you think expect that any elected official is ever going to be truly held accountable for anything in this county, you are living in a dream world. My issue is that too many people believe everything the media tells them and base their opinions/decisions on that. :clap::clap::action-sm:haha7::hamm:::hammer:

A Fuckinhg men!!

[YourAmishDaddy]

The whole reason I know about Marc Rich, FALN terrorists who planned to bomb Chicago, and all the vermin Clinton pardoned is because of just that. There was a lot of outrage over his pardons, and everything else he did. His illegal executive orders, bombing Serbia, the cruise missiles, the WTC, Monica Lewinsky, the USS Cole, everything. Marc Rich was almost the first thing I know you and I thought of when this came out because I posted about it and you followed up on it Sinn. That was years ago and we still remember it, why? because it was pounded in our heads.

And I'm not talking about just Bush, I'm talking about politicians in general. If we like them, and voted for them it seems as if we are too unwilling to criticize them because it makes us seem like our judgement is bad, or we just hate to lose, or some other weird thing. Like "I bet on this guy and I'm gonna stick with him til the bitter end" kind of thing. And I just don't get it.

But the thing that I still can't get is this "well nothing we can do about it" attitude" or the "well it was just this little thing" attitude. Am I saying go string people from a tree? Nope. But in this case the man was convicted, now he'll get a slap on the wrist for it. That's what I'm talking about. people are perfectly fine about that.

They cite Marc Rich, and his pardon, well here's his lawyer, Scooter Libby. But because he's a republican he's ok. The man was held accountable, he was convicted, and then that got circumvented. Well you say we can't hold people accountable, apparently not because even when they get convicted they still get off.

And are you fine with that? Is that what you want? This two tiered oligarchy where you and i suffer whatever fate we get if we screw up, but the so called public servants get nothing?

My only question is is that fine with anyone here? Is this how we want our system? Forget the feasibility of how to hold accountability, some of you seem to like this miscarriage of justice. As if you benefit from it.

Do you agree or disagree with it?