Kickbacks - Right or Wrong?

[Capt.Hilarious]

I was talking to a friend today and he was telling me about how a contractor he works with offered to give him kickbacks on jobs as a thank you for the recurring work and a way for my buddy to get a little extra cash. So, for each job the contractor completed he inflates the invoice price by a couple of hundred dollars. Then, at a later date, the contractor would give that additional money to my friend in cash. This isn't a situation where the job is bid out - the contractor regularly does jobs for my friend.

So in other words, my buddy's employer is giving the contractor his invoice price and my buddy is getting cash without the employer knowing about it.

Well, of course, the first thing I said to my friend is: "Wait a minute, sir, that is illegal!! You should have higher morals than that!"

And while this is obviously a textbook example of white collar crime, I am curious to know if you seedy Wackbaggers would ever accept kickbacks?

[frankjg]

Thats not a kickback.. thats a referral fee.

If you buddy is recommending this guy for a job then they guy can and should be paying him a referral fee.

Kickbacks only happen in a bid situation, which, they way I read your post, this is not

[Capt.Hilarious]

I agree on the referral fee. But the contractor is inflating the invoice price, getting paid by my buddy's employer and then giving that extra cash to my buddy. I guess it is in the grey area.

[abudabit]

Why is he trying to disguise the payment? It can't be for taxes, whether in the invoice or paid as a fee both would be expenses / revenue.

So there must be something you or he didn't mention. Either that or he is too lazy to write on the invoice 'referral fee'.

edit Ahh, I see. He is making sure the money goes to your friend instead of your friends employer. Although if it's in the invoice doesn't that mean the employer is getting it? Confused.

[Capt.Hilarious]

I edited the OP for clarity - does that make sense?

[frankjg]

I agree on the referral fee. But the contractor is inflating the invoice price, getting paid by my buddy's employer and then giving that extra cash to my buddy. I guess it is in the grey area.

ooooooohhhhhh, thats a kickback

[abudabit]

Ah yes, definitely wrong in that case. That's theft, plain and simple.

[Fruit Monkey]

totally normal in that business you know how much an ADD costs? cheaper to pay the plumber to tell people about the tile guy who tells them about the electrician... u get my point. A couple of hunder? must have been a big job other wise penny pinching home owners like myself would have noticed.

OMG Inflating the invoice? omg thats a crime ...... not, its not, and what who said they couldnt shop around? if they do then he makes less but he still gets the job.....

how about buying IPO stocks now thats a racket leave the poor guy referring his friend alone geezzzeee


And while this is obviously a textbook example of white collar crime, I am curious to know if you seedy Wackbaggers would ever accept kickbacks? so where do you practice law ?



Bribery is a crime implying a sum or gift given that alters the behavior of the person in ways not consistent with the duties of that person. DID THIS HAPPEN HERE?? NO


Nope didnt read about any of this going on...A kickback is an official's share of misappropriated funds allocated from his or her organization to an organization involved in corrupt bidding.

[abudabit]

Read it again Fruitmonkey. It isn't a referal. It is a kickback.

- Contractor and employee enter agreement where contractor charges extra money for service.
- In exchange for allowing the company to be charged extra, employee gets some money from contractor.

That is theft, with out a doubt. The employee and the contractor are colluding to steal money from the company.

And it is a corrupted bidding process. The decision to go with that contractor at that price was made by the employee - the employee essentially is the bidder working for the company. The employee accepted contract services at a higher price than normal in exchange for a kickback.

[Voss's Tumor]

Read it again Fruitmonkey. It isn't a referal. It is a kickback.

- Contractor and employee enter agreement where contractor charges extra money for service.
- In exchange for allowing the company to be charged extra, employee gets some money from contractor.

That is theft, with out a doubt. The employee and the contractor are colluding to steal money from the company.

And I'm all for it. If the employer's too cheap a bastard to throw some cash to his employee in the form of a commission, fuck 'em.

[Capt.Hilarious]

I didn't realize you had to be a lawyer to understand what is a crime and what is not.

But I agree with you that it is not a bribe.

The definition of kickback, though, doesn't specify "corrupt bidding." It refers to a collusion agreement. So, two parties agree on stealing money from another party. Therefore, illegal.

[abudabit]

And I'm all for it. If the employer's too cheap a bastard to throw some cash to his employee in the form of a commission, fuck 'em.

The employer pays the employee salary, what would they pay the employee commission based on? Higher contractor price = bad for company, not good for company.

Plus what makes you think they don't pay the employee commission? Or pay him poorly? There are people making 100's of thousands of dollars doing shit like this. It's theft. And if he has a problem with the companies pay, work somewhere else.

Hope the company finds out and sues his ass.

[THE FEZ MAN]

that is how business is done.

[wes mantooth]

Hope the company finds out and sues his ass.

x2.

If he feels he's not making enough money then he needs to find another fucking job.

[Capt.Hilarious]

that is how business is done.

You're right. If a building inspector comes out to a building here in Chicago, it is pretty much expected of you to throw him a twenty. If you don't, you get violations for things like peeling paint or chipped bricks.

Of course, that is slightly different since THAT is a bribe.

[MJMANDALAY]

As far as the constrution bussiness goes, standard practice is,10% is added on to any subcontractors price and 10% of total job to the refering contractor.

Eg1: JoeBlow Sheetrock uses Johhny the Plumber on a job Johhny's estimate is $2400.00. End of the Job Jonny should have $240.00 in an envelope for JoeBlow. Johnny knows about the 10% already and figures that into his price.

Eg2: Eddie the Electrictian gets JoeBlow Sheetrock a job worth $6500.00, end of job, JoeBlow gives Eddie an envelope with $650.00.

It's really quite simple.

Oh and if you want to bid on jobs in the high six figure range and up, don't submit an estimate contract without including some tickets to a ball game, maybe a gift card or two for the guys wife, and a certificate to a nice restaurant. And then if you get the job, looks like your sending the guy on vacation.

[Kris_LTRMa]

I'd be too afraid of getting caught & going to jail and having to share a cell with a carpet muncher named Lafonda

[THE FEZ MAN]

hell insurance company's do it all the fucking time, its called cost shifting

[Capt.Hilarious]

As far as the constrution bussiness goes, standard practice is,10% is added on to any subcontractors price and 10% of total job to the refering contractor.

Eg1: JoeBlow Sheetrock uses Johhny the Plumber on a job Johhny's estimate is $2400.00. End of the Job Jonny should have $240.00 in an envelope for JoeBlow. Johnny knows about the 10% already and figures that into his price.

Eg2: Eddie the Electrictian gets JoeBlow Sheetrock a job worth $6500.00, end of job, JoeBlow gives Eddie an envelope with $650.00.

It's really quite simple.

Oh and if you want to bid on jobs in the high six figure range and up, don't submit an estimate contract without including some tickets to a ball game, maybe a gift card or two for the guys wife, and a certificate to a nice restaurant. And then if you get the job, looks like your sending the guy on vacation.

Absolutely that's the way it is with contractors and subs. The difference though is that my buddy is neither. He is just hiring the guy with someone else's money yet is still getting a cut. I had a feeling it was pretty standard in a lot of other fields.

Also, even in my field, i get an envelope of cash from contractors at Christmas time. As a thank you for a continuing relationship - much like how you were talking about the six figure job thank yous. So, i guess you could argue that the contractor might bump up his price to take that into consideration at the end of the year. In this case, the guy is just getting more regular handouts.

[MJMANDALAY]

Absolutely that's the way it is with contractors and subs. The difference though is that my buddy is neither. He is just hiring the guy with someone else's money yet is still getting a cut. I had a feeling it was pretty standard in a lot of other fields.

Also, even in my field, i get an envelope of cash from contractors at Christmas time. As a thank you for a continuing relationship - much like how you were talking about the six figure job thank yous. So, i guess you could argue that the contractor might bump up his price to take that into consideration at the end of the year. In this case, the guy is just getting more regular handouts.

Yea bottom line everybody is looking for thier piece.

[Capt.Hilarious]

word.

[ih8Uboo-boo]

is your friend in charge of hiring the contractor that is paying him?

[Capt.Hilarious]

Yes he is.

[ih8Uboo-boo]

Then that is a little shady, but I am willing to bet it is not all that uncommon.

[Chin nuts]

Is it really worth pocketing some chump change so the individual has something over you? Trust me this shit always has away of biting you in the ass. Better to not accept and make a stern point of it so they get the message. You'll never have to worry about someone ratting you out in the future and you might even feel better about yourself as a bonus.

I'll accept a lunch or even tickets once in awhile but payola on the company's dime is just stealing.

[kidconnor]

Either way you spin it = wrong. I'm no saint and I'm not better than anybody else. I wouldn't fault someone for trying to make a buck when it seems that if YOU don't someone else will.

BUT>>>> I wouldn't do it because this guy owns you. He ever gets pinched he sells you out in a second. Your not giving him any work anymore? Fuck you .. he drops a dime.. innocent until proven guilty but allegations NEVER go away...

[Capt.Hilarious]

That's almost exactly what i told my buddy too - plus, I know I would be worried that my boss put him up to it as a test. Man that would be such bullshit to be caught and fired over a couple extra bucks.

Also, I found out more details. He could pretty much make an extra $800 - $1500 per month. The contractor does several jobs a week for this guy. Add a hundred to each job and it's a nice chunk of change. Add a couple of hundred to each job and it's a really nice chunk of change. The higher-ups wouldn't really notice b/c the prices are always changing anyway b/c of the nature of the job.

Either way - the poll seems to be pretty even.