Teacher fired for telling it like it is...

[caniseeyourtaint]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297847,00.html

An Iowa college professor claims he was fired over the phone after he called the story of Adam and Eve a "fairy tale," the Des Moines Register reports.

Steve Bitterman, 60, a Southwestern Community College instructor who told his students that the biblical story should not be literally interpreted, says school officials sided with students who threatened legal action over the remarks.

Click here to read full story in the Des Moines Register.

School officials declined to comment on Bitterman’s employment status, but the president, Barbara Crittenden, said: "There was no action taken that violated the First Amendment."

The students claim the lesson was "denigrating their religion."



Believe what you will...this is not an offense calling for termination. He should have gotten a raise.

[Vyce]

Why? Teachers are paid to teach, not provide editorial opinions concerning religion.

I don't think he should have gotten fired over this, but really is NOT his place to be denigrating people's religions and labeling religious beliefs as "fairy tales."

[seeinred]

Why? Teachers are paid to teach, not provide editorial opinions concerning religion.

I don't think he should have gotten fired over this, but really is NOT his place to be denigrating people's religions and labeling religious beliefs as "fairy tales."

Well said, x2, and QFT.

[Glenn Dandy]

hippy teachers sit and drone on about anti war crap.... whats the fuckin difference?


War is my religeon.

[HummerTuesdays]

Why? Teachers are paid to teach, not provide editorial opinions concerning religion.

I don't think he should have gotten fired over this, but really is NOT his place to be denigrating people's religions and labeling religious beliefs as "fairy tales."

While I also agree, we have to keep in mind: What course was he teaching? In what context was that said?

This very well could be a bunch of dumb fucks claiming something that is not correct. Yes, the professor may have said it, but it might have a totally different connotation if we heard it in context.

[seeinred]

While I also agree, we have to keep in mind: What course was he teaching? In what context was that said?

This very well could be a bunch of dumb fucks claiming something that is not correct. Yes, the professor may have said it, but it might have a totally different connotation if we heard it in context.

Regardless, the students/school overreacted BIG TIME. What ever happened to letting things roll off of you? People are going to take jabs at your religion, no matter what it is, and you should be able to deal with that.

[HummerTuesdays]

Regardless, the students/school overreacted BIG TIME. What ever happened to letting things roll off of you? People are going to take jabs at your religion, no matter what it is, and you should be able to deal with that.

If I'm in a math class, or phys ed, or biology, or whatever other crappy classes I have to take...there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for the teacher to be discussing religion. In poli sci *maybe* depending on what's being covered. In a religion class what he said is open for discussion.

Especially since this is a community college, and since they receive government funding, they need to keep the separation of church & state. Unless they're teaching courses in theology.

[BravoSierra]

Blasphemy!

[Sinn Fein]

Why? Teachers are paid to teach, not provide editorial opinions concerning religion.

I don't think he should have gotten fired over this, but really is NOT his place to be denigrating people's religions and labeling religious beliefs as "fairy tales."

Well said, x2, and QFT.

X3

[TheDrip]

school officials sided with students who threatened legal action over the remarks.

Legal action? Give me a fucking break. What grounds would they sue on. Legal expert baggers, help me out here.

On a side note, I'd love to see who would try to prove that Adam and Eve is NOT a fairy tale. Love to see the evidence offered up there. Sort of like Noah's Ark. In order to make an Arc that would be required to do what the story says it would have unbelievably larger than any water craft ever concocted in history.

[Vyce]

If I'm in a math class, or phys ed, or biology, or whatever other crappy classes I have to take...there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for the teacher to be discussing religion. In poli sci *maybe* depending on what's being covered. In a religion class what he said is open for discussion.

Especially since this is a community college, and since they receive government funding, they need to keep the separation of church & state. Unless they're teaching courses in theology.

I agree, and well put.

I mean, I get what you're saying seeinred. In most situations, if someone shits on your religious beliefs, it might be best to just let it slide, because you are going to encounter people who don't believe the same way you do, and you need to be able to handle it with civility.

But you should not have to take that sort of thing from a teacher. It's highly inappropriate. A teacher shouldn't be there advocating for or against any religion, unless you're literally attending a parochial school.

[MJMANDALAY]

Gets fired for telling the truth WTF thats bullshit.

[Mommadeez4u]

from the story:

Bitterman said he called the story of Adam and Eve a "fairy tale" in a conversation with a student after the class and was told the students had threatened to see an attorney. He declined to identify any of the students in the class.

[seeinred]

If I'm in a math class, or phys ed, or biology, or whatever other crappy classes I have to take...there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for the teacher to be discussing religion. In poli sci *maybe* depending on what's being covered. In a religion class what he said is open for discussion.

Especially since this is a community college, and since they receive government funding, they need to keep the separation of church & state. Unless they're teaching courses in theology.

I agree, and well put.

I mean, I get what you're saying seeinred. In most situations, if someone shits on your religious beliefs, it might be best to just let it slide, because you are going to encounter people who don't believe the same way you do, and you need to be able to handle it with civility.

But you should not have to take that sort of thing from a teacher. It's highly inappropriate. A teacher shouldn't be there advocating for or against any religion, unless you're literally attending a parochial school.


If I came across as disagreeing with what you guys were saying, I didn't mean to. The guy is stupid for doing it, and the point about it being government funded is an excellent one. It was on more of a side note I mentioned letting things slide. I just think people get fired waaaaay too easily these days.

[d0uche_n0zzle]

from the story:

Bitterman said he called the story of Adam and Eve a "fairy tale" in a conversation with a student after the class and was told the students had threatened to see an attorney. He declined to identify any of the students in the class.

So much for that First Amendment with all these rat fucks running aboot.

[seeinred]

So much for that First Amendment with all these rat fucks running aboot.


I really don't think the fact that it was after class makes a difference. A teacher in a classroom, even if it's after class has been dismissed is still "at work"

[d0uche_n0zzle]

It wasn't a classroom lesson, IMO. It was private conversation, thus then, protected speech, maaan.

[Capt.Caveman]

I don't think he should have been fired, but like an earlier statement said teach the fuckin class. All these professors do now is brainwash their students with thier liberal jiberish now a days.

[Zona992006]

Originally Posted by Mommadeez4u
from the story:

Bitterman said he called the story of Adam and Eve a "fairy tale" in a conversation with a student after the class and was told the students had threatened to see an attorney. He declined to identify any of the students in the class.

So much for that First Amendment with all these rat fucks running aboot.

If he had a conversation with a student after class, I guess he had to have said, "In my opinion, and my opinion does not reflect the schools policy on church and state issues or their opinion on Religion" ????

The school should have suggested to him not to ever bring this type of stuff again, not get fired.

[TheDrip]

Looks like it's time to start banning teachers from discussing anything outside of the class curriculum with their students whether in class or out of class.

God forbid some poor adult gets their feelings hurt.



This whole situation stinks to high hell.

[THE FEZ MAN]

were fucking doomed

[Three Hole Puncher]

So these Christians are so insecure in their silly beliefs, that they have to fire a person for daring to state his opinion about one of their (many) silly pseudo-historical fantasies?

Pa-fucking-thetic. :icon_roll

The students claim the lesson was "denigrating their religion."

So... which subject was he teaching- Physics? Earth Science? Geology? History? Biology?

Take your pick... they all demonstrate that literal biblical interpretation is a crock of shit.

If he had said...

"The Earth is a coupla billion years old."

Those hayseed dipshits would have taken that as their, "...religion being denigrated." Because every toothless bible-thumping rube knows that... "The Earf ain't no more 'n six thousand years old, and my grandpappy weren't condescended from no monkeys!"

These people are clueless. They are offended by fundamental facts of nature. It is cowardly and wrong to even attempt to respect their ignorance by censoring BASIC FACTS OF REALITY from your everyday, casual conversations just so they can remain blissfully pig ignorant.

Fuck these clownshoes, and fuck their fairytales.

[Southpaw]

Maybe this was a biology instructor trying to teach about the evolution of Homo Sapiens and found it necessary to resist a demand to reconcile science with Genesis.

Perhaps the same issue was being discussed in a Philosophy class on critical thinking or Theism & Atheism.

Or what about a political science professor discussing public policy issues like prayer in school, or the teaching of evolution.

Along the same lines, it could have come up as an American history professor discussed the Scopes trial...

etc.


The teachers I most liked and admired were the ones that inspired me to challenge my beliefs and prejudices or to argue from a side I wasn't used to.
I don't know how else you train citizens to be capable of self rule.

And I don't see how a government funded community college violates the establishment of religion clause by having classes on theology or comparative religion, etc that are necessary to learning about history or contemporary issues. It's simply not a matter of seperation of Church and State, not even close. Anyone who thinks publically funded institutions shouldn't have such a mandate are really arguing that the people that attend shouldn't receive a minimally decent education.

[martianvirus]

Most teachers suck. The system is fucked up.

[seeinred]

If he had a conversation with a student after class, I guess he had to have said, "In my opinion, and my opinion does not reflect the schools policy on church and state issues or their opinion on Religion" ????

The school should have suggested to him not to ever bring this type of stuff again, not get fired.

Agreed, the school should have told him not to do it just to cover both their asses in the future. But I do think that if a teacher is on school grounds talking to a student, he's responsible to the school for his words and actions. In this case too responsible, it seems.

[Fruit Monkey]

wheres an orginazation for free speech when u need it most

[Mommadeez4u]

To the douchebag student who <Lil Jimmy's whining douchebag voice> threatened to sue him because of his hateful words </Lil Jimmy's whining douchebag voice>

Don't like what the teacher is telling you after class? THEN DON'T SOLICIT HIS OPINIONS AFTER CLASS SPHINCTER

[Kris_LTRMa]

Legal action? Give me a fucking break. What grounds would they sue on. Legal expert baggers, help me out here.

On a side note, I'd love to see who would try to prove that Adam and Eve is NOT a fairy tale. Love to see the evidence offered up there. Sort of like Noah's Ark. In order to make an Arc that would be required to do what the story says it would have unbelievably larger than any water craft ever concocted in history.

I attended a Catholic grammar school, Catholic high school, Jesuit college ... while we weren't taught that Adam & Eve were a "fairy tale", we were taught to not take the stories literally. We were taught that they were to be used as guides for living a good "Christ-like" life.

The literal says that Adam & Eve were the only two humans on this earth. If that's the case, where did the women that their sons married come from? Did God really turn Lot's wife into a pillar of salt when she looked back at Sodom, after the angels told her not to do so?

Nope, may not be a fairy tale...but you can't take it literally either. Teacher needs to be rehired

[Hudson]

I attended a Catholic grammar school, Catholic high school, Jesuit college ... while we weren't taught that Adam & Eve were a "fairy tale", we were taught to not take the stories literally. We were taught that they were to be used as guides for living a good "Christ-like" life.

The literal says that Adam & Eve were the only two humans on this earth. If that's the case, where did the women that their sons married come from? Did God really turn Lot's wife into a pillar of salt when she looked back at Sodom, after the angels told her not to do so?

Nope, may not be a fairy tale...but you can't take it literally either. Teacher needs to be rehiredDitto

[weakside]

Way too many holes in this story to pass judgement either way...

What was the context of the conversation? Was it "office hours" or just a casual conversation between the two? Did the teacher say, "In my opinion...?" What prompted the conversation in the first place?

[weakside]

I read the article and although it pains me to say it because I happen to agree with what the teacher said, I believe he needed to be reprimanded for what he did. (Though firing him may have been a little too harsh and probably had to do with more that this particular incident.)

It sounds like religion came up in class (as it will when studying any civilization) and the teacher made some derogatory comments towards religion in class, which then continued in a private conversation with one of the offended students.

Although religion is for nuts and people who believe in the Easter Bunny, you can't stomp on other people’s beliefs as a public official. A teacher should present the facts and offer all alternative opinions for study without bias.

If a student does ask for your personal opinion you either decline or at the most say, "I tend to believe this theory though that does not make me right...", but certainly not call someone’s religious beliefs "fairy tales".

[DoughBoy]

If I'm in a math class, or phys ed, or biology, or whatever other crappy classes I have to take...there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for the teacher to be discussing religion. In poli sci *maybe* depending on what's being covered. In a religion class what he said is open for discussion.

Especially since this is a community college, and since they receive government funding, they need to keep the separation of church & state. Unless they're teaching courses in theology.

There are a few college level classes that this subject can be discussed.

When you're dealing with science, the scientific method, and rational thought; if the subject of 'creationism' comes up, it is bound to be a talking point because the science of biology (or the science of science itself) is made up of/founded on things that bring forth the conclusion that "Adam and Eve" just doesn't make sense.

Science classes, psychology, poli sci, theory, etc. All classes that spark thought, use scientific method, or teach people to actually use their brain to THINK would all be appropriate for this discussion and comment.


That being said, the teacher should have been 'talked to' about spreading his ideals just as someone that would have been "preaching" anything else in class. His classroom isn't his socio-religious pulpit, it is his office and he should do the job of teaching the curriculum.

PS Adam and Even and the bible in general IS just a book of fairy tales.

[Deadbent]

white flour!

[Cunty McShitballs]

Let's see. A teacher expesses an opinion that is a proven FACT by every known scientific entity, and is fired for it.

We have GOT to stop coddling and making special rules for religion. Yes they are your beliefs, and nobody should be able to take them away, but that doesn't stop them from being incorrect or ignorant.

And YES, it is the job of a place of higher learning to explain to people (who have probably never been very exposed to viable scientific explanations as alternatives to dieties) the scientific facts.

He probably could have used more tactful language... perhaps just saying that the story was not supported by scientific evidence rather than calling it a "fairy tale".

[seeinred]

And YES, it is the job of a place of higher learning to explain to people (who have probably never been very exposed to viable scientific explanations as alternatives to dieties) the scientific facts.



No, it's not their job to tell people their religious beliefs are wrong. I have no problem with him expressing dissent with their views, but to call it a "fairy tale" is wrong of him. Like I said before, firing was way extreme, but he was wrong to do what he did.

[TheDrip]

We have GOT to stop coddling and making special rules for religion. Yes they are your beliefs, and nobody should be able to take them away, but that doesn't stop them from being incorrect or ignorant.

And YES, it is the job of a place of higher learning to explain to people (who have probably never been very exposed to viable scientific explanations as alternatives to dieties) the scientific facts.


QFT!!

Sorry, but if you're of college age and you're still taking the bible to be literally, you've got quite a few other problems that need to be addressed before diving into hurt feelings.

[HummerTuesdays]

QFT!!

Sorry, but if you're of college age and you're still taking the bible to be literally, you've got quite a few other problems that need to be addressed before diving into hurt feelings.

I'm going to twist this a little. If someone wants to believe that Adam & Eve were real, and that the serpent really did talk to them, and really was the devil, etc., that is their right. BUT AS COLLEGE AGED KIDS they should know that it is a RELIGIOUS belief and people are allowed to BELIEVE differently.

[Sprite]

More entitlement for religious people with zero common sense.

Religion is for faggots. Yep, I said it.

[Capt.Caveman]

but if he shit on islam or some jews all you there is no god people would be up in arms. I don't give a shit either way. do I believe in God, yes. Do I think the bible is a total book of facts...no. But like it's been stated earlier keep your tree huggin opinions to yourself. your there to teach not to brainwash young kids. I still don't think he should have been fired. Fact of the matter is no one knows if there is a god or not, So a lot of you just need to stop acting like your so fuckin enlightened.

[TheDrip]

but if he shit on islam or some jews all you there is no god people would be up in arms

Not true, I believe all religions are equally deserving of being shit on.

[DoughBoy]

but if he shit on islam or some jews all you there is no god people would be up in arms. I don't give a shit either way. do I believe in God, yes. Do I think the bible is a total book of facts...no. But like it's been stated earlier keep your tree huggin opinions to yourself. your there to teach not to brainwash young kids. I still don't think he should have been fired. Fact of the matter is no one knows if there is a god or not, So a lot of you just need to stop acting like your so fuckin enlightened.

Get the fuck out of here you bible thumping dolt. Your attempt to pidgeon hole anyone that disagrees with 'xtians' as 'tree huggers' or 'brainwashers' is laughable.

[LiddyRules]

but if he shit on islam or some jews all you there is no god people would be up in arms. Have you been to this site?

[Capt.Caveman]

Get the fuck out of here you bible thumping dolt. Your attempt to pidgeon hole anyone that disagrees with 'xtians' as 'tree huggers' or 'brainwashers' is laughable.

the funniest part of this is your calling me a bible thumper!!!!!i've been to church 5 times in my life. and yea that's what I did pigeon holed eveyone. yuck....why don't you read the whole statement carefully and not just the parts you want to read....

[LiddyRules]

the funniest part of this is your calling me a bible thumper!!!!!i've been to church 5 times in my life. and yea that's what I did pigeon holed eveyone. yuck....why don't you read the whole statement carefully and not just the parts you want to read....

but if he shit on islam or some jews all you there is no god people would be up in arms. Again, on this site, really?

We bitch about Muslims being upset about Mohammad but how great is the faith of these morons if they're willing to take legal action because a 60 year old teacher at a community college said that Adam and Eve might not have given birth to all 6 billion of us.

But like it's been stated earlier keep your tree huggin opinions to yourself. You just called not believing in Adam and Eve an opinion or rather, according to the article, said that Adam and Eve should "not be interpreted literally." Do you think DNA is an opinion too? How about the Big Bang Theory?

your there to teach not to brainwash young kids. He teaches community college, not kindergarten. And if you think what he's doing is brainwashing, what do you say about the methods of the Church who warped these "kids" (your words) so much?

[Capt.Caveman]

Again, on this site, really?

We bitch about Muslims being upset about Mohammad but how great is the faith of these morons if they're willing to take legal action because a 60 year old teacher at a community college said that Adam and Eve might not have given birth to all 6 billion of us.

You just called not believing in Adam and Eve an opinion or rather, according to the article, said that Adam and Eve should "not be interpreted literally." Do you think DNA is an opinion too? How about the Big Bang Theory?

He teaches community college, not kindergarten. And if you think what he's doing is brainwashing, what do you say about the methods of the Church who warped these "kids" (your words) so much?

yea most of us have similar views on muslims and such but i've been in plenty of arguements with people defending islam and such right on this very board

yea most professors at colleges don't push their own agendas right? r u one of the brainwashed. I HATE college kids. Most of them are total tree hugging I know everything douches. All I know is my nephew and a few old friends went to college with a set of values and opinions and came back with a total different set. brainwashing...... I'm not a religious person, pretty far from it but I hate liberal jizzbag professors

[LiddyRules]

yea most professors at colleges don't push their own agendas right? r u one of the brainwashed. I HATE college kids. Most of them are total tree hugging I know everything douches. All I know is my nephew and a few old friends went to college with a set of values and opinions and came back with a total different set. brainwashing...... I'm not a religious person, pretty far from it but I hate liberal jizzbag professors
Yes, I went to college. To many, I know it's a sin. To even more it's Anti-American. Sorry about that. My bad.

And you say they were "brainwashed." How do you know their opinions simply didn't change. As people grow up, their opinions don't remain constant. New experiences will affect different people in different ways. What makes your views "right" but their new views wrong?

Do you even know what brainwashing means?

[Capt.Caveman]

Yes, I went to college. To many, I know it's a sin. To even more it's Anti-American. Sorry about that. My bad.

And you say they were "brainwashed." How do you know their opinions simply didn't change. As people grow up, their opinions don't remain constant. New experiences will affect different people in different ways. What makes your views "right" but their new views wrong?

Do you even know what brainwashing means?

don't act like suck a fuckin martyr. my bad, i went to college...ye-uck! Yea cause peoples views usually do a 180 in the course of 6 to 8 months. I don't have to go against the government and the norm with almost everyone of my views. but you do. yea your a brainwashed liberal douche. wait i'm stupid i don't know what that means i better go learn me something.

[Balogny Tits]

Why? Teachers are paid to teach, not provide editorial opinions concerning religion.

I don't think he should have gotten fired over this, but really is NOT his place to be denigrating people's religions and labeling religious beliefs as "fairy tales."

Take a pill. Almost all biblical scholars do not believe that many of the stories (such as adam/eve) are literal. He was not denigrating people's religions.

[LiddyRules]

don't act like suck a fuckin martyr. my bad, i went to college...ye-uck! Someone forgot to drink his sarcasm juice this morning. God you're such a sense of humorless, literal pansy.

Yea cause peoples views usually do a 180 in the course of 6 to 8 months. Possible. Especially possible when they get out of the two horse, one bar town you probably live in.

I don't have to go against the government and the norm with almost everyone of my views. Against the government? Where did that come from? If it's one of those "brainwashed" people you talk about, how exactly are they against the government? Is it more of a planning to bomb buildings or I disagree with the war? Is it more let's shoot some cops or "I'm thinking of voting *gasp, shock, horror* Democrat?"

yea your a brainwashed liberal douche. Why do you think that? What mindless liberal talking points have I been brandishing?

[mascan42]

wait i'm stupid i don't know what that means i better go learn me something.
QFT

[Xyn]

So if a teacher says something that a Muslim considers "denigrating to their religion," even if that statement is true, he shouldn't have said it and should be shitcanned?

Fuck respecting peoples religions. People should absolutely have a right to believe whatever they want, whether it is a religion or not. That shouldn't mean that citizens should have to respect every insane notion that some people want to believe.

Nowhere did he say "Christianity is stupid" or "Christianity is wrong" or "Don't fallow Christianity." If he were promoting or detering people from a religion, that would be one thing. The fact that there are many Christians who do not take Genisis as a literal documentation of events should be more than enough evidence that his statements were not a violation of the establishment clause.

What if I was teaching and stated that Jesus was darker skinned? Would that be denigrating to the religion, just becuase a lot of people think he was white?

I agree that while on school grounds, he does have to uphold the image of the college, however that shouldn't mean bending over backwards not to offend every over sensitive bible nut out there.

Why teach Evolution? That seems to go pretty hard against a literal interpretation of Genisis. Or should we not be teaching our students about science either?

[weakside]

Nowhere did he say "Christianity is stupid" or "Christianity is wrong" or "Don't fallow Christianity." If he were promoting or detering people from a religion, that would be one thing...

I see where you were going, and again, I don’t follow any religion (its all pretty lame in my personal opinion) nor do I think the guy should have been fired. But having said that I do think when he called the story of Adam and Eve “a fairy tale” * he was going beyond the boundaries of teaching and was in fact belittling the beliefs of another person.


* But having said that, if you believe in Adam and Eve you are probably a nut-job.

[Xyn]

Is "fairy tale" a factually incorrect term for the story? Just becuase something is a fairy tale, doesn't mean it couldn't be true, it just means it's unbelievable or unsubstantiated.

I'd think someone was crazy if they believed that Peter Pan was a true story. I would call Peter Pan a fairy tale. Does that mean I'm denigrating it?

Is it denigrating to speak the truth? Or is it that people get mad if they are called on their bullshit?

Show some evidence for some of these fairy tales and maybe they will deserve the respect they want.

I wouldn't blink if someone wanted to call evolution a fairy tail. I would know they were using the term innacurately and I would laugh at them, but what do I care what they call it? Would it be denigrating to the theory? Who the fuck would care? There is evidence backing evolution.

If I ran around town naked and said that clothed people were denigrating to my religion, would anyone stop wearing clothes? Should they respect my new found beliefs? Or should they ignore my lunacy?

Well, maybe not ignore, I should probably be locked up at that point, but that's taking the whole thing to another level. :action-sm

[Hudson]

Ummm in my Mythology course at Rutgers was Genesis...

[DoughBoy]

the funniest part of this is your calling me a bible thumper!!!!!i've been to church 5 times in my life. and yea that's what I did pigeon holed eveyone. yuck....why don't you read the whole statement carefully and not just the parts you want to read....

I read the whole post and your subsequent posts. I read between the lines too. Your posts elucidate the fact that you add nothing to any discussion. You regurgitate talking points that you've heard people say without understanding the context and tone in which they were originally used.

I would highly suggest you take a political theory and/or political science and a psych class along with some independant study of various books on the subject of public opinion. Perhaps after learning how to think critically, you'll be able to sustain a meaningful debate.

[Capt.Caveman]

I read the whole post and your subsequent posts. I read between the lines too. Your posts elucidate the fact that you add nothing to any discussion. You regurgitate talking points that you've heard people say without understanding the context and tone in which they were originally used.

I would highly suggest you take a political theory and/or political science and a psych class along with some independant study of various books on the subject of public opinion. Perhaps after learning how to think critically, you'll be able to sustain a meaningful debate.

everyone of your posts are your original thoughts right. Oh you so smart the rest of us so dumb. GO fuck yourself. I just brought up a counterpoint and you chose to take it one way which is wasn't meant to be taken. I would highly suggest you swallow a bottle of sleeping pills and drift off to sleep.

[Capt.Caveman]

Someone forgot to drink his sarcasm juice this morning. God you're such a sense of humorless, literal pansy.

Possible. Especially possible when they get out of the two horse, one bar town you probably live in.

Against the government? Where did that come from? If it's one of those "brainwashed" people you talk about, how exactly are they against the government? Is it more of a planning to bomb buildings or I disagree with the war? Is it more let's shoot some cops or "I'm thinking of voting *gasp, shock, horror* Democrat?"

Why do you think that? What mindless liberal talking points have I been brandishing?

How bout this 3 simple words You are a cunt.

[YourAmishDaddy]

I read the whole post and your subsequent posts. I read between the lines too. Your posts elucidate the fact that you add nothing to any discussion. You regurgitate talking points that you've heard people say without understanding the context and tone in which they were originally used.

I would highly suggest you take a political theory and/or political science and a psych class along with some independant study of various books on the subject of public opinion. Perhaps after learning how to think critically, you'll be able to sustain a meaningful debate.

Exactly.

[Sprite]

...

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/958/stupidvf3.jpg

[LiddyRules]

How bout this 3 simple words You are a cunt. I no able to argue good points you say.

[Capt.Caveman]

Exactly.

HEY now all the cunts are together

[Capt.Caveman]

I no able to argue good points you say.

I know

[Xyn]

dascaveman, dumbest person on earth? We'll tell you at 11.

[Capt.Caveman]

dascaveman, dumbest person on earth? We'll tell you at 11.

bang bang.el oh el. CAR CRASH!!!! oh wait california, yea your definately a cunt

[BIV]

I read the whole post and your subsequent posts. I read between the lines too. Your posts elucidate the fact that you add nothing to any discussion. You regurgitate talking points that you've heard people say without understanding the context and tone in which they were originally used.

I would highly suggest you take a political theory and/or political science and a psych class along with some independant study of various books on the subject of public opinion. Perhaps after learning how to think critically, you'll be able to sustain a meaningful debate.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/thebiv/PWNED.jpg

[weakside]

Is "fairy tale" a factually incorrect term for the story? Just becuase something is a fairy tale, doesn't mean it couldn't be true, it just means it's unbelievable or unsubstantiated. (1)

Is it denigrating to speak the truth? Or is it that people get mad if they are called on their bullshit? (2)


1. I was not there, but I think we can probably assume that when he called the kid’s religion a "fairy tale" he meant it as a derogatory term. Maybe not, but most likely so.

2. Excellent point, and I think this underlines where the teacher was in the wrong. It is not derogatory to speak the truth, but it can be if you are negatively judging someone based on your opinion. The teacher’s opinion is that Adam and Eve was a fairy tail, and while I may agree with him it is also not truth. It is opinion.

The problem with these stories is that it is impossible to know what context anything was said because none of us were there.

In any case, I have really defended religion way too much in this thread and now need to take a shower.

[weakside]

california, yea your definately a cunt

Wow, getting kind of personal there with Xyn. Besides, and no offense, but I'm not sure anyone from New Jersey can put anyone else down based on the fact they are from a different state. :action-sm

[BIV]

The teacher’s opinion is that Adam and Eve was a fairy tail, and while I may agree with him it is also not truth. It is opinion.

*sigh*
No, it's not. Fact is evolution, science, blah blah blah. The bible and everything contained within is a belief and will remain so until proven. If proven then it becomes fact and "no Adam and Eve" becomes belief.

Science is fact, the bible is a fairy tale. Until "we" start to accept that we are all fucked.

Every teacher should be telling their students this. Maybe we could stop another generation of diluted idiots from roaming the earth.

[Xyn]

bang bang.el oh el. CAR CRASH!!!! oh wait california, yea your definately a cunt

Right, because I'm some bed wetting liberal hhhhhomo-sekstual right?

You've got nothing. Kill yourself and raise your states IQ average.

1. I was not there, but I think we can probably assume that when he called the kid’s religion a "fairy tale" he meant it as a derogatory term. Maybe not, but most likely so.

That would likely come down to a "he said, she said" in a courtroom.

But again, there are Christians who believe in a non literal interpretation of Genisis. So if the statement was derogatory, it was derogatory to that particular belief, not the religion as a whole.

If the belief is unfounded, I think it should be fair game. Look at Scientology. Schools aren't going to stop teaching psychiatry are they?

Teachers shouldn't be saying how great it is to be a part of one religion or how awful it is to be a part of another. Beyond that, let the facts rule.

2. Excellent point, and I think this underlines where the teacher was in the wrong. It is not derogatory to speak the truth, but it can be if you are negatively judging someone based on your opinion. The teacher’s opinion is that Adam and Eve was a fairy tail, and while I may agree with him it is also not truth. It is opinion.

There is no rational reason to believe in Adam and Eve. That isn't oppinion, that's fact. Should evidence come to light, the situation changes.

It isn't going to... and that's an (educated) oppinion.

In any case, I have really defended religion way too much in this thread and now need to take a shower.

Nothing wrong with defending religion. Freedom of religion is one of the most important things we have in this country.

It doesn't mean that every retarded notion has to be given equal respect.

But let's agree to disagree :action-sm

[Xyn]

*sigh*
No, it's not. Fact is evolution, science, blah blah blah. The bible and everything contained within is a belief and will remain so until proven. If proven then it becomes fact and "no Adam and Eve" becomes belief.

Science is fact, the bible is a fairy tale. Until "we" start to accept that we are all fucked.

Every teacher should be telling their students this. Maybe we could stop another generation of diluted idiots from roaming the earth.

QFT

Nice blunt sum up.

[Zona992006]

*sigh*
No, it's not. Fact is evolution, science, blah blah blah. The bible and everything contained within is a belief and will remain so until proven. If proven then it becomes fact and "no Adam and Eve" becomes belief.

Science is fact, the bible is a fairy tale. Until "we" start to accept that we are all fucked.

Every teacher should be telling their students this. Maybe we could stop another generation of diluted idiots from roaming the earth.

Revick....(what movie?)

[weakside]

*sigh*
No, it's not. Fact is evolution, science, blah blah blah. The bible and everything contained within is a belief and will remain so until proven. If proven then it becomes fact and "no Adam and Eve" becomes belief.

Science is fact, the bible is a fairy tale. Until "we" start to accept that we are all fucked.

Every teacher should be telling their students this. Maybe we could stop another generation of diluted idiots from roaming the earth.

Your preaching to the choir (waka-waka) and I agree with everything you said. But I still think the teacher was (again, depending on the context of what he said) was wrong.

The vast majority of people in this country believe in religion. So while the rest of us think religion is a farce, we have to accept that we are part of the minority (an educated minority, but one none the less). So while I know what is popular is not always right, if your going to present your minority opinion you have to do it in the right way.

So when the teacher started bashing religion in a mixed group of students he should have known it was going to cause problems. If he really wanted to present his opinion there were a lot of better ways to say it in a less derogatory fashion, especially since a major part of his job is public speaking so he really should have known better.

I think like Xyn said, this is really going to come down to a, "He said, she said" situation in court. Maybe the teacher was being respectful and the fuckers just got stupid feelings hurt hearing logic, but maybe not.

[Vyce]

Your preaching to the choir (waka-waka) and I agree with everything you said. But I still think the teacher was (again, depending on the context of what he said) was wrong.

The vast majority of people in this country believe in religion. So while the rest of us think religion is a farce, we have to accept that we are part of the minority (an educated minority, but one none the less). So while I know what is popular is not always right, if your going to present your minority opinion you have to do it in the right way.

Oh christ. Come off it with this myopic bullshit.

I believe in God.

I also believe in evolution.

You'd be VERY surprised at how many Christians out there believe in both. This shit that you're peddling that it's a complete science vs. religion divide is nonsense. Not every individual out there who believes in the Judeo-Christian God believes also in Intelligent Design. This argument has gone around on this board (and other O&A and R&F boards) endlessly. Religion doesn't refute science, science doesn't refute religion. They can exist perfectly together in harmony, but people CHOOSE to refuse to accept that, and I'm not just looking at Christians when I say that, as atheists have their share of the blame.


So when the teacher started bashing religion in a mixed group of students he should have known it was going to cause problems. If he really wanted to present his opinion there were a lot of better ways to say it in a less derogatory fashion, especially since a major part of his job is public speaking so he really should have known better.

I think like Xyn said, this is really going to come down to a, "He said, she said" situation in court. Maybe the teacher was being respectful and the fuckers just got stupid feelings hurt hearing logic, but maybe not

Calling someone's belief system a "fairy tale" is not respectful. Which is fine, because you don't have to be respectful of other's beliefs. BUT, if you are a teacher, your ability to be disrespectful is justifiably limited.

[Southpaw]

Religion doesn't refute science, science doesn't refute religion. They can exist perfectly together in harmony, but people CHOOSE to refuse to accept that, and I'm not just looking at Christians when I say that, as atheists have their share of the blame.



In what way is the story of Adam and Eve harmonious or compatible with Evolution? They make completely opposite claims about the origin of the species - if one is true then the other has to be false (unless they are both wrong...)

[Capt.Caveman]

Right, because I'm some bed wetting liberal hhhhhomo-sekstual right?

You've got nothing. Kill yourself and raise your states IQ average.


Um yes I wouldn't have called you a bedwetter. You bomb and I have nothing...Cause everyone who's not a liberal faggot and if they believe in some type of higher power they're a redneck right. Bet you don't rip on blacks or mexicans much do ya. only whites cause your a cunt and you'll always be a cunt. The end

[Vyce]

In what way is the story of Adam and Eve harmonious or compatible with Evolution? They make completely opposite claims about the origin of the species - if one is true then the other has to be false (unless they are both wrong...)

Why are you arguing this point with me? I do not think you read my post closely enough.

I've already said that I believe in EVOLUTION. Not creationism.

Many Christians? Actually believe in EVOLUTION.

Do NOT deal in absolutes here, because the field is far too broad. Not every Christian believes in Intelligent Design / creationism. There are a larger number than you think, world-wide (and in this nation) who do not believe that way; it changes surprisingly little about one's faith. But far too many atheists seem to put forth the assertion that evolution absolutely refutes and destroys all aspects of religion, which is just silly nonsense. This is what I was referring to.

[Xyn]

Um yes I wouldn't have called you a bedwetter. You bomb and I have nothing...Cause everyone who's not a liberal faggot and if they believe in some type of higher power they're a redneck right. Bet you don't rip on blacks or mexicans much do ya. only whites cause your a cunt and you'll always be a cunt. The end

Rednecks? How dumb are you? If I attacked anything, it was religion. How many black or Mexican atheists do you know of? Okay, I'm a white half Mexican, but that don't count.

So just becuase some faggots get all outraged over making fun of minorities means I can't make fun of whites/men/Christians? Thinking like that just brings cuntiness to a whole new level. Oh, and don't forget to avoid the towel head jokes or they could blow us up :icon_roll

You aren't even interesting.

I've already said that I believe in EVOLUTION. Not creationism.

Many Christians? Actually believe in EVOLUTION.

Do NOT deal in absolutes here, because the field is far too broad. Not every Christian believes in Intelligent Design / creationism. There are a larger number than you think, world-wide (and in this nation) who do not believe that way; it changes surprisingly little about one's faith. But far too many atheists seem to put forth the assertion that evolution absolutely refutes and destroys all aspects of religion, which is just silly nonsense. This is what I was referring to.


This is my whole point. Science is not in conflict with religion. Science is only in conflict with certain dogmatic beliefs. You can't really prove or disprove god.

Genisis is fine as a story, but it's just that, a story. I do think that refering to it as a fairy tail while in a classroom was a bad judgement call, but considering that it is a technically accurate way of describing it, I don't believe he should have lost his job.

Tell the guy to be more sensative or some bullshit like that. At least give him another chance.

[BIV]

Why are you arguing this point with me? I do not think you read my post closely enough.

I've already said that I believe in EVOLUTION. Not creationism.

Many Christians? Actually believe in EVOLUTION.

Do NOT deal in absolutes here, because the field is far too broad. Not every Christian believes in Intelligent Design / creationism. There are a larger number than you think, world-wide (and in this nation) who do not believe that way; it changes surprisingly little about one's faith. But far too many atheists seem to put forth the assertion that evolution absolutely refutes and destroys all aspects of religion, which is just silly nonsense. This is what I was referring to.

Sorry, that's a cop out. Either you believe in the bible or you don't. You can't have it both ways and pick and choose what to believe. If you don't believe in creationism, then the entire bible is defunct along with all the religions that spawned from it.

[Xyn]

And so the conversation turns to a theological debate.

[BIV]

I don't mean to, I just can't help myself.

[weakside]

This shit that you're peddling that it's a complete science vs. religion divide is nonsense.

Um, what? I think you have me confused with someone else, which is understandable since there is like a dozen different arguments going on with this topic right now. Either you misunderstood or I didn’t make myself clear.

I'm not arguing science vs religion, not even a little bit. I'm saying that the teacher was in the wrong for allegedly ridiculing someone’s beliefs.


Calling someone's belief system a "fairy tale" is not respectful....if you are a teacher, your ability to be disrespectful is justifiably limited.

...and I agree with this as well. I'm confused why you took issue with my statements?

I personally believe religion is a farce, but I still think the teacher was in the wrong if he was mocking it in class.

[Xyn]

I don't think he was mocking it. I think he was keeping it in context.

The teacher likes the story. He just wants to make sure it's understood in the context he is presenting it.

The only way you should take it as a insult is in the same way that you would be insulted if someone called Homers Iliad and Odyssey a fairy tail. It sort of under sells the work of literature.

No one should be fired for calling a non historical story a fairy tale.

No one should be fired becuase someone else was unreasonably insulted.

No one should be fired for a minor lapse in judgement.

That's what this whole thing is about isn't it? Whether or not this man should have been fired.

[weakside]

That's what this whole thing is about isn't it? Whether or not this man should have been fired.

I too find this weird. No matter whether you think the teacher was right or wrong, nothing that was printed in the story suggested that firing the teacher was a reasonable reaction. As I mentioned before, something tells me for whatever reason the school was looking for an excuse to fire this guy.

[Vyce]

Sorry, that's a cop out. Either you believe in the bible or you don't. You can't have it both ways and pick and choose what to believe. If you don't believe in creationism, then the entire bible is defunct along with all the religions that spawned from it.

Nonsense. No offense, but this comes off as something from someone who knows NOTHING about religion, especially Judeo-Christian religion and dogma. There are more theological theories and philosophies on just the origin of universe & mankind than you would imagine. Also keep in mind there are NUMEROUS Christian sects. Listing the big ones, you'd have at least a half-dozen, and that's not even touching Catholicism, or the really wacky, tangent "Christian" religions like Mormonism. There is a tremendous divergence of ideas and philosophies, regarding all aspects of the religion. Nothing is all or nothing, except the baseline requisite belief in a higher power. If you don't believe in creationism, that doesn't invalidate the entire religion. That's not Christianity. Not at ALL.

[Vyce]

And so the conversation turns to a theological debate.

How could it not?

[Vyce]

Um, what? I think you have me confused with someone else, which is understandable since there is like a dozen different arguments going on with this topic right now. Either you misunderstood or I didn’t make myself clear.

I'm not arguing science vs religion, not even a little bit. I'm saying that the teacher was in the wrong for allegedly ridiculing someone’s beliefs.

...and I agree with this as well. I'm confused why you took issue with my statements?

I personally believe religion is a farce, but I still think the teacher was in the wrong if he was mocking it in class.

With all due respect, it was some of the arrogance I saw in some of your post.

The "educated minority", who's oh so much brighter than the rubes who believe in the mythical old man living in the sky. I've heard it all before. But it falls apart when you run into individuals such as myself, who's highly educated, intelligent, and believes everything YOU believe regarding evolution, and science, yet still has studied religion and come to the conclusion that a belief in a supreme being is logical and correct. Like I said, you can't deal in absolutes on this issue. Because believing in a God doesn't automatically make you an intellectual inferior, and being an atheist doesn't make you a fucking genius.

And yes, for the record, my first post in this thread was that the guy shouldn't have been fired.

[Xyn]

So what this teacher said wasn't the smartest thing he could say, but he shouldn't have been fired for it. Any non-waterheads disagree?

On to the theological debate!

So just to clarify, what parts of the bible do you take literally Vyce?

Me personally, I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. Talk about literal interpretations, I think they've got most people beat. I consider little more than a few historical characters and locations to be real in the bible.

Anything supernatural makes no sense to me. Some supreme being is I suppose possible, but seems highly unlikely and I see no relevance that it would have to our lives.

It's something that I can't prove to anyone, but I find it interesting that no one has ever been able to prove his existance to me with any meaningful data. If he is like many theists describe him, wouldn't he be a little more important to my life?

Atheism isn't so much a belief as it is the neutral position. Considering that what we "know" of god has been passed on from generation to generation, I think it only makes sense to assume there is no god unless some evidence is shown.

Now if that evidence is something personal, something that can't be shared with a skeptic like me, fine. Seems like a pretty silly system for an all loving God to set up, but to each their own.

[BIV]

Nonsense. No offense, but this comes off as something from someone who knows NOTHING about religion, especially Judeo-Christian religion and dogma. There are more theological theories and philosophies on just the origin of universe & mankind than you would imagine. Also keep in mind there are NUMEROUS Christian sects. Listing the big ones, you'd have at least a half-dozen, and that's not even touching Catholicism, or the really wacky, tangent "Christian" religions like Mormonism. There is a tremendous divergence of ideas and philosophies, regarding all aspects of the religion. Nothing is all or nothing, except the baseline requisite belief in a higher power. If you don't believe in creationism, that doesn't invalidate the entire religion. That's not Christianity. Not at ALL.

This is simple. Any Christian religion is based on the belief that Christ is the son of the Judeo God. That is the only requirement to be a Christian.

But the side effect of that is the belief in a Judeo God. The belief in a Judeo God is spelled out in the Old Testament. Therefore, to believe Christ is the son of God, you have to believe in the Old Testament.

If you are picking and choosing, then you are just making stuff up to fit what makes you feel good. Nothing wrong with that, on it's face, but there is no truth there, just your version of a fairy tale.

I almost have more respect for those who stick to their convictions about the bible then those who choose not to believe parts because it's convenient. To put it bluntly, shit or get off the pot.

No creation=no Bible=no Judeo God=No Christ=no Christianity.

[weakside]

With all due respect, it was some of the arrogance I saw in some of your post.

I re-read that post and your right, it did come off as arrogance. It only weakens my opinion to come off like that and it was not my intent.

Since this thread has turned into a theological debate I'll put in my two-cents:

As I stated, I do not respect nor believe in religion. But I am not an Atheist as I am open to the idea of their being a force (that we call "God") that is greater than we are. I also do not think science and God are mutually exclusive. Maybe science if proof of God, maybe it is actually God, I don't know...

But the only problem is that religion has often taken the idea of God and manipulated it to make it useful for their own gain. The vast majority of wars that have been fought in the history of the world has been because of religion. Religion harshly judges, persecutes blindly, and deals in absolutes, all of which seems to me contradicts what being a "good person" should mean. Basically, I see much more negatives with religion than I do any positives.

Thus, while there may be a force greater than us I highly doubt religion (any religion) has figured it out. Heaven, hell, our purpose, and our mission are all left up to us individually because in my personal opinion, religion has failed us.

[Southpaw]

Why are you arguing this point with me? I do not think you read my post closely enough.


I was just pointing out a specific example where, contrary to your assertion, religion and science cannot exist together in harmony.

The principle holds whenever religion and science make competing claims about the universe. In some cases, there is harmony because one of them has nothing to say about the issue or both happen to agree. But when religion claims "X" and science claims "Not X", a religious person either must choose to abandon the religious claim, abandon rationality by refusing the scientific claim, or abandon rationality by ignoring the contradiction. None of those options would qualify as "harmony."

[Xyn]

But the only problem is that religion has often taken the idea of God and manipulated it to make it useful for their own gain. The vast majority of wars that have been fought in the history of the world has been because of religion. Religion harshly judges, persecutes blindly, and deals in absolutes, all of which seems to me contradicts what being a "good person" should mean. Basically, I see much more negatives with religion than I do any positives.

Don't forget things like Communism which, while not usually thought of as a religion, served many of the same purposes. It's why "atheism" is/was manditory in China and the Soviet Union. Hard to have a state religion with a bunch of competition around.

Always a laugh when someone points to Stalin as an example of the evils of atheism.

Freedom of religion, no matter how crazy some beliefs may be, is always important. Any atheist looking to ban religion is out of their minds.

I know, let's start a war on religion! I'm sure it will work just as good as the war on drugs.

I'd love to see an atheist/agnostic America, but that's the individuals choices.