Apple: We are more secure. Hackers: No wai!

[patbattlefield]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c79b814e-a364-11dc-b229-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

Apple’s rising popularity lures hackers

By Kevin Allison in San Francisco

Published: December 5 2007 19:18 | Last updated: December 5 2007 19:18

After years of relative safety, the Apple Mac is becoming an increasingly tempting target for malicious computer hackers, according to a new report published this week.

Security researchers have been aware of the threat to Apple since last year, when they detected the first piece of malicious code – or “malware” – specifically designed to target Apple.

Over the past few months, however, the number of malicious programmes has increased, according to a report published this week by F-Secure, an internet security company.

“Over the past two years, we had found one or two pieces of malware targeting Macs,” said Patrik Runald, an F-Secure security researcher. “Since October, we’ve found 100-150 variants.”

The rising security threat could present a challenge to Apple, which has long touted the security advantages of its platform over those of Microsoft, whose software is a perennial target for hackers.

“As Apple’s platform becomes more visible, it will increasingly come under the gun,” said Roger Kay, an analyst at Endpoint Technologies.

Apple declined to discuss specific steps it was taking to counter the growing number of attacks. However, Apple said: “We take security very seriously and have a great track record for addressing vulnerabilities before they can affect users.”

Mr Runald said the jump in attacks against Apple appeared to be the work of a single gang of professional hackers. The group, known in security circles as the “Zlob gang”, makes programs that infect PCs by tricking users into thinking they are installing software needed to view copyrighted video files.

As with other attacks against Apple, the Zlob gang relies on tricking users to install its malicious software, rather than on exploiting any inherent software vulnerability.

Apple sold 2.1m Macs in the third quarter, up from 1.1m in the first quarter of 2006, according to Gartner, the research group. After years of catering to a niche audience of Mac lovers, Apple now commands about 10 per cent of the consumer PC market, according to Mr Kay.

News of Apple’s growing profile among professional criminals comes as the number of viruses and other malicious computer programmes loose on the internet has doubled over the past 12 months, according to F-Secure.

F-Secure said it had detected 500,000 viruses, trojans and worms in 2007, compared with 250,000 last year.

[martianvirus]

I've never had a virus on XP or Vista. Fuck the Mac!

[BIV]

I've been saying it forever. Apple just seems more secure because hackers don't give a shit about Apple when there are far more PC's available. They also have a grudge against Microsoft so they work extra hard to go after Mocrosoft programs. The only secure computer is an offline computer. If they want into your shit they are getting in.

[Kurto2021]

No apple is more secure because they don't allow all applications to have root access.....fundamentally speaking the Mac is more secure.

If a program wants to alter a system file it has to be approved by an administrator of the computer. Most apps are able to be installed by any user but if you want to access a system file a password must be put in.

Vista tried to replicate this but they ask you are you sure about 1,000 times. Eventually the end user is annoyed and just clicks yes. This UAC security in vista is less secure then not popping up a message because the user is bombarded.

Also these supposed hacks are all garbage. The involve the end user doing some really dumb stuff in order for them to be initiated.

[Death Metal Moe]

Apple users are hipsters anyway, they're too smug to get a virus on their little colorful comp.

[Kurto2021]

The core of Mac OS X is BSD Unix, and that OS has been around for two decades in open source form, inspected by all concerned. That's why Mac OS X is more secure than Windows, according to InfoWorld.

For a long time, apologists for Windows have been arguing "security through obscurity." However, if it has a CPU, hackers will try to attack it, and Mac OS X has been a big target for a long time.

"The difference isn't market share, it's the foundation of the operating systems. Given that most virus authors and hackers are in it for the ego, don't you think that there would be a huge incentive to be the first one to write a widespread OS X, Linux, or FreeBSD virus?" Paul Venezia asked.

The key is the foundation of the OS. If the OS is designed on a shaky foundation, everything on top will suffer. When Apple moved its customer based from Classic Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X, they did so consciously with the idea that they needed a firm foundation for the future. But that meant leaving every Classic app behind in the long term.

Microsoft has never been able to make that commitment and retained the backwards compatibility with Win32 apps. That has put a strain on their whole Windows OS. "Simply put, Microsoft had the chance to beat Apple to the punch and make a giant leap back in 1997 or so, killing off the existing Win32 platform in favor of an NT-based client and server that did not have to run legacy applications natively. They didn't, and we are still paying the price for it today. Even if you're not running an MS OS, most of the spam in your mailbox came from zombie Windows systems in the control of spammers," the author noted.

While Microsoft was reaping the rewards of this compatibility, Apple took the time to move its entire customer base to a highly secure BSD Unix OS. "Microsoft didn't. They're faced with massive-scale exploits like the spreading ANI vulnerability, Mr. Venezia concluded. "That affects every Microsoft OS, server and workstation alike, across the board. This gives us a glimpse into the code shared between generations of Microsoft OSes, and it's not a pretty view."
Sums it all up right there

[Aero 1]

Sums it all up right there

yep but what most fanboys and techies dont take into account is the business side of it. Both companies can give a shit what fanboys want unless it makes them money.

M$ knows that they cant stop backwards compatibility because 90% of the OS market share is theirs and 85% of that is running legacy OS in which people still use their 10 year old programs. Convincing 90% of the home market share that they have to buy all new equipment and software to do the things are already done is not feasible.

Apple in the mac os 9 days with 3% market share had nothing to loose. so they did it, marketed its benefits (see business, not technology) and gained a huge chunk of market share which is now in the 10's i believe.

hackers and spammers go after whats out there the most. now they are seeing the trend in apple, they will exploit it. if linux gaines huge popularity, they will exploit it.

[Kurto2021]

While I agree with you to some extent I think that if MSFT would force people to upgrade their apps they would. If you used the mac back when they made the transition to OSX they had a mode called classic mode. This would allow you to install both OS9 and OS X at the same time. Whenever a classic app was launched it would launch in a classic environment. Baiscally with MSFT owning virutal PC they probably should have used this technology to do this with Vista.

Microsoft is all about moving products rather than thinking about the customer. If they would have turned off backwards compatibility they could have moved forward much faster. Sure your customers may be upset about having to upgrade their apps but in the long run it would be for their own good.

[Aero 1]

While I agree with you to some extent I think that if MSFT would force people to upgrade their apps they would. If you used the mac back when they made the transition to OSX they had a mode called classic mode. This would allow you to install both OS9 and OS X at the same time. Whenever a classic app was launched it would launch in a classic environment. Baiscally with MSFT owning virutal PC they probably should have used this technology to do this with Vista.

Microsoft is all about moving products rather than thinking about the customer. If they would have turned off backwards compatibility they could have moved forward much faster. Sure your customers may be upset about having to upgrade their apps but in the long run it would be for their own good.

thats fine for you and me. but will your stubborn grandmother want to spend $1000 to upgrade her computer, install virtual pc and learn how to use virtualization and understand just so she use her Recipe software from 1997? no, i dont think so. consumers dont think about their own good, they think about cost and necessity. if there is no necessity to upgrade, there i no necessity to invest in new technology. and let me tell you, stupid computer user outnumbers the educated computer user much, much more.

you dont get it, they did think of the consumer. thats why they support legacy applications and thats why they still build of win32, and they will always build of win32.

when longhorn was first announced almost 8 years ago now i believe, there big thing was that they were going to get away from the registry and build a whole new OS that doesnt run on DLL's and the registry. tell me this, why didnt that happen?


if it was reversed were apple had the the business and consumer marketshare that M$ enjoys now, do you honestly think they would disable legacy application like they do now?

[stellarcomics]

I've seen articles like this at least once a year for a decade. The message is always the same: Macs are more secure than PCs; will that change when the imac/ipod/iphone/macbook becomes more popular?
It's always the same shit!
Enough already! Hackers will come after us mac users when and if they give a shit. ANY system can be hacked! Fuck!

[Kurto2021]

Aero my cunt grandma shouldn't update to Vista....nobody is forcing...when the time comes to upgrade her computer she will be dead anyway....oh wait she already is dead.

Point is everyone feels the need to upgrade but a lot of times there is no reason to upgrade

It took Apple from 2001 to the release of Leopard to finally drop classic support. The cost didn't have to $1,000 the virtualization should have been built into the OS until the time comes to remove it from the software. My sons eMac is currently running Panther because I realize the next steps up will ruin his classic support and I have a lot of education games that are OS9 only.

The cost of a PC is $299 for a shitty one and I see no reason why this would change if they would have built in Virtualization. Hell they overcharge for the OS in the first place so this addition would be nothing.

[Kurto2021]

I've seen articles like this at least once a year for a decade. The message is always the same: Macs are more secure than PCs; will that change when the imac/ipod/iphone/macbook becomes more popular?
It's always the same shit!
Enough already! Hackers will come after us mac users when and if they give a shit. ANY system can be hacked! Fuck!

If Apple has 7% marketshare why aren't 7% of the virus's out there for the Mac. The security through obscurity theory holds no water.

[Aero 1]

If Apple has 7% marketshare why aren't 7% of the virus's out there for the Mac. The security through obscurity theory holds no water.

did you just ask that question? are you equating the physical number of pc's out there to the number of physical viruses?

so with your logic: the US has roughly 165 million PC's, if mac has 7% of that, that will make about 153 million windows pcs. so there should be 153 million viruses out there that have caused problems?

let me preface this before you continue to get upidity, i own a mac, i prefer it over windows and i administer a huge windows corporate network. THE ONLY REASON windows is attacked is because of its huge presence, and its vulnerability in its legacy architecture. IF EVERYONE IN THE WORLD dumped their computers and got to MS "safest" OS "Vista", I will guarantee you that spam will be reduced by 90% (also if people move away from the flawed SMTP protocol, but thats for another discussion), and virus production would be greatly reduced UNTIL hackers found another or easier thing to exploit.

ill say it agian. if apple had the presence that MS has and their roles are reversed, you would see stupid bill gates in a turtle neck telling people that their product is safer and you would see the pc guy making fun of the apple guy in witty commercials.

P.S. waiting for beemans intellectual comment on this.....

[martianvirus]

Too many words!!!

Macs are for fags.

[Kurto2021]

I am simply arguing against he marketshare issue as being the sole reason that the Mac is not eploited as much as the PC.

The Mac OS was built from the ground up with security as the #1 concern. Windows is a security layer built on a foundation that wasn't secure.

There are millions of macs out there so one would only assume there should be at least a hundered viruses for the Mac and that simply isn't true. The ones that they have claimed to be a virus aren't really a virus and don't replicate.

I know the Mac is not 100% secure but I would say that it is 100 times more secure then Windows....

Let's put it this way...if Mac and Windows had equal marketshare which would have more issues?

A smart user can run XP or Vista without an issue and may never have a problem but when dealing with the average user (dumbasses) that isn't the case. My XP box at home doesn't even have a virus scanning software on it and it has been running for over a year.

In contrast my brothers computer was reinstalled 2 months ago and it is a disaster. My brother is much better off with a Mac but is afraid to make the switch.

[martianvirus]

If windows is so unsecure, why have I never had a virus? SHUTUP ASSCUNTFANBOYS!!!!

[Death Metal Moe]

If windows is so unsecure, why have I never had a virus? SHUTUP ASSCUNTFANBOYS!!!!

I am forced to agree, I have had very few problems with Windows when I think of it. Sure, I've had spyware before and when I did I was fucking pissed as hell. But it all comes back to the fact that there are many times more PCs than Apples out there. The people trying to get at us are not going to concentrate on like 5% of the market.

Also, since PC is cheaper and therefore more accesable to users, those new users make more mistakes and open an E-mail with some crazy program in it.

It's really a case of the big dog in the yard getting picked on more than the little guy on the block.

[Beeman99]

yep but what most fanboys and techies dont take into account is the business side of it. Both companies can give a shit what fanboys want unless it makes them money.

M$ knows that they cant stop backwards compatibility because 90% of the OS market share is theirs and 85% of that is running legacy OS in which people still use their 10 year old programs. Convincing 90% of the home market share that they have to buy all new equipment and software to do the things are already done is not feasible.

Apple in the mac os 9 days with 3% market share had nothing to loose. so they did it, marketed its benefits (see business, not technology) and gained a huge chunk of market share which is now in the 10's i believe.

hackers and spammers go after whats out there the most. now they are seeing the trend in apple, they will exploit it. if linux gaines huge popularity, they will exploit it.


you are so wrong cunt

[Beeman99]

If windows is so unsecure, why have I never had a virus? SHUTUP ASSCUNTFANBOYS!!!!

I've never had a virus with windows, and I love my mac

[sniper]

It should also be noted that the majority of corporate networks run a windows client/server architecture. Simply, the payload of hacking a corporate network is much more lucrative for a hacker than a Mac server/client in some publishing company.
Also, indeed the market share makes a difference, look at the storm worm, 2 million PCs, a hacker can lease 50-100 of those computers for spam for $1,000+/month. So in essence, it's easier and more worthwhile for a hacker to develop a replicating virus for PCs since it will effect the majority of the market share, rather than slave for months programming the perfect virus for maybe a handful of macs.

[Kurto2021]

If windows is so unsecure, why have I never had a virus? SHUTUP ASSCUNTFANBOYS!!!!

You may have never had a virus but that is because you are not a complete boob. You are actually in the minority with windows users.

No OS X users have ever had a virus.

[LAX]

It should also be noted that the majority of corporate networks run a windows client/server architecture. Simply, the payload of hacking a corporate network is much more lucrative for a hacker than a Mac server/client in some publishing company.
Also, indeed the market share makes a difference, look at the storm worm, 2 million PCs, a hacker can lease 50-100 of those computers for spam for $1,000+/month. So in essence, it's easier and more worthwhile for a hacker to develop a replicating virus for PCs since it will effect the majority of the market share, rather than slave for months programming the perfect virus for maybe a handful of macs.

Conclusion: Mac's are better MV;)

[Kurto2021]

It should also be noted that the majority of corporate networks run a windows client/server architecture. Simply, the payload of hacking a corporate network is much more lucrative for a hacker than a Mac server/client in some publishing company.
Also, indeed the market share makes a difference, look at the storm worm, 2 million PCs, a hacker can lease 50-100 of those computers for spam for $1,000+/month. So in essence, it's easier and more worthwhile for a hacker to develop a replicating virus for PCs since it will effect the majority of the market share, rather than slave for months programming the perfect virus for maybe a handful of macs.

You act like there are only 5 Macs in the world.

[sniper]

You act like there are only 5 Macs in the world.

I was comparatively speaking in regards to the corporate IT world and the payoff. Don't make it look like I'm picking a side, because frankly I don't give a shit about the flame war in this thread.

[Kurto2021]

surprisingly I don't care that much either.....I was just wondering why I even started posting on this

[BlackNinja]

on a somewhat related note, maddox rules
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

[Plunkies]

Interesting statistic:

Apple has only 10% marketshare but over 85% of the world's gay pornography.

[martianvirus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JixbzFjv_cU

[Beeman99]

Windows Vista = Great

Mac OS X = Great

[sobi]

Great old story in regards to Mac and their screw ups.

http://www.blackgate.net/blog/index.php/how-apple-orchestrated-web-attack-on-researchers/

[DonTheTrucker]

I've never had a virus on any platform. Even my Amiga 1200 never had one.

[stellarcomics]

I never said anything about market share; I said hackers will come for macs when and if they give a shit. Market share is implied, but that theory doesn't hold water. ANY computer can be hacked. The number of duplicate systems is meaningless. You can have the greatest security system installed in your house – someone with enough of a reason will find a way in.

[Ego]

Fuck all of it. Just give me an Apple 2. I'll spend my days playing Oregon Trail.

[zagman76]

Safe browsing techniques = no viruses/spyware.

You're going to see more and more 'application aware' viruses nowadays that take advantage of flaws to gain system access. Once day, when you're running 'refrigerator v4.0' a RFID-enabled can of peas that has been compromised is going to run ice-maker 'sploit 707 and order you $1,000's worth of canned carrots.

[sniper]

I never said anything about market share; I said hackers will come for macs when and if they give a shit. Market share is implied, but that theory doesn't hold water. ANY computer can be hacked. The number of duplicate systems is meaningless. You can have the greatest security system installed in your house – someone with enough of a reason will find a way in.

How can the number of duplicates be meaningless if you have the same security flaw on all of them and the same piece of code to exploit it? It's platform based.

[your dads a pedo]

I own a mac/ipod/iphone if there is a problem with any of them I go to the apple store and get a new one. NO calling Dell "customer service" no hassles. Yes I pay more for my machines but that ensures that I dont have any aggrivation I can speak to someone who speaks english and can solve my problem.

I have a PC too running vista, vista is bloated and has the annoying popups asking if I am sure I want to do this, wait are you really sure?

To me my mac trusts me and just works, overall my macbook does what I need it to do.

Most people who claim macs are "gay" or pcs are better generally havent used a mac since grade school.

[sniper]

Fuck all of it. Just give me an Apple 2. I'll spend my days playing Oregon Trail.

“You have shot 27 pounds of buffalo. You can only carry 5 back to your wagon…”

http://www.bustedtees.com/bt/images/BT-dysentery-gallery-845.jpg

[Death Metal Moe]

Anyone got any wagon tongues? I'll gladly trade you 400 rounds of ammo, I always maxed that out before I left anyway.

[sniper]

Anyone got any wagon tongues? I'll gladly trade you 400 rounds of ammo, I always maxed that out before I left anyway.

Wouldn't help me anyways, my horses always drowned trying to cross the river right when class ended.

[Death Metal Moe]

Wouldn't help me anyways, my horses always drowned trying to cross the river right when class ended.

You can't ford that river you NOOB!!

LAL!!!!!11!1@@!11

[sniper]

You can't ford that river you NOOB!!

LAL!!!!!11!1@@!11

:haha7::haha7:
Shit i feel really old right now.

[burky79]

:haha7::haha7:
Shit i feel really old right now.

holy fuckin shit...

x2 and embarasingly.

i remember the days of ... do you wanna go to recess or play Oregon Trail.

i always stayed and played the trail.

---


ps anyone remember that "airplane" based game, where you fly it within the maze and cant touch the sides... dont remember the name of it, but we used to play that in our 7th grade history class sometimes.

---

wow... i feels olds

[sniper]

http://oldcomputers.net/pics/floppy5.gif

just imagine how many people have never seen, nor know what this is.
:icon_redf

[Xyn]

http://oldcomputers.net/pics/floppy5.gif

just imagine how many people have never seen, nor know what this is.
:icon_redf

Jesus, I remember those things.

[Aero 1]

http://oldcomputers.net/pics/floppy5.gif

just imagine how many people have never seen, nor know what this is.
:icon_redf

but have you ever used an 8 inch floppy?

http://www.pdp8.net/rx02/small/floppies.jpg

[sniper]

http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/TapeDrive.jpg

[Aero 1]

we had to program machine language in college on punch cards........in 1997!

http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/Keypunch.jpg

[Beeman99]

we had to program machine language in college on punch cards........in 1997!

http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/Keypunch.jpg

no wonder you a computer dummy

and I remember all that stuff, just remember burning it all years ago

[poopiebottoms]

The people who get viruses these days, regardless of the platform, tend to be stupid or careless users.

Almost all cases, including the ones above for the mac, require the user to consciously run a malicious program. This has been true for almost all viruses known, except a handful of crafty worms. Most average users these days know better than to do that, or patch their systems before they have the chance to be hit.

[Death Metal Moe]

but have you ever used an 8 inch floppy?

http://www.pdp8.net/rx02/small/floppies.jpg

Never used the 8" floppy, but I was one of those guys who got completey confused when they started calling the small 3.5" disks "Floppy" even though they were hard plastic.

I must have sounded like a fucking old man:

http://f3c.yahoofs.com/auc/_AcasBQ_x2DQ/kau_wahine-img93x98-3.5____black____floppy_____disk.jpg?auAmqsLBm4obbx mG

"Ya call this floppy?!?! This should be called the hard disk,and a hard disk should be called a fixed disk! This thing isn't floppy like my old disks! BE LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN MY LIFE!!!!"

[Beeman99]

Never used the 8" floppy, but I was one of those guys who got completey confused when they started calling the small 3.5" disks "Floppy" even though they were hard plastic.

I must have sounded like a fucking old man:

http://f3c.yahoofs.com/auc/_AcasBQ_x2DQ/kau_wahine-img93x98-3.5____black____floppy_____disk.jpg?auAmqsLBm4obbx mG

"Ya call this floppy?!?! This should be called the hard disk,and a hard disk should be called a fixed disk! This thing isn't floppy like my old disks! BE LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN MY LIFE!!!!"

I still have a shitload of blank 3.5" disks lying around with no use anymore, don't even have a floppy drive in my pc

and one thing that does suck about the Mac OS is that it's tough as shit to find programs for it through torrents

[stellarcomics]

How can the number of duplicates be meaningless if you have the same security flaw on all of them and the same piece of code to exploit it? It's platform based.

How many houses do you live in? One?
Now how many houses do you care about? Exactly.
If every house on your block has the same security flaw (example; windows that can be easily unlocked from the outside) then you have the same "design based" flaw; and the same security problem as your neighbors. If your house does NOT have the same flaw, you are not as likely to be broken into the same way. It doesn't matter if your house or 10 million houses have the same flaw; to YOU all you care about is fixing YOUR house.
Macs don't have the same security flaws as Windows. So what? I just care about MY macs. Hackers will start coming after macs when they feel like it. We don't know what flaws may be out there. I hope they never decide to find out. I won't be told to start panicking by every "Macs might one day become hacked like Windows" story I see EVERY fucking year.

I've been a mac professional since 1989. I've NEVER seen a mac get hit by a virus. The closest was the Auto-Start worm for MS Office back in '96 (and that was only for Office, not the Mac OS).

[MAV]

yep but what most fanboys and techies dont take into account is the business side of it. Both companies can give a shit what fanboys want unless it makes them money.

M$ knows that they cant stop backwards compatibility because 90% of the OS market share is theirs and 85% of that is running legacy OS in which people still use their 10 year old programs. Convincing 90% of the home market share that they have to buy all new equipment and software to do the things are already done is not feasible.

Apple in the mac os 9 days with 3% market share had nothing to loose. so they did it, marketed its benefits (see business, not technology) and gained a huge chunk of market share which is now in the 10's i believe.

hackers and spammers go after whats out there the most. now they are seeing the trend in apple, they will exploit it. if linux gaines huge popularity, they will exploit it.

i really like how you did that clever "$" for the "S" in microsoft.
i bet youre a big hit at all the parties, and everyone thinks you should be a comedian right? right?

[Aero 1]

i really like how you did that clever "$" for the "S" in microsoft.
i bet youre a big hit at all the parties, and everyone thinks you should be a comedian right? right?

whats wrong princess, you angry about it? bad memories? you went through 3 pages of this and that is what you are angry about? i bet your a hit at social events and i bet everyone looks at you and wishes to be like you.

[MAV]

whats wrong princess, you angry about it? bad memories? you went through 3 pages of this and that is what you are angry about? i bet your a hit at social events and i bet everyone looks at you and wishes to be like you.

no i didnt realize that this went on for 2 more pages.

i stopped after the drivel on the first page.

[sniper]

no i didnt realize that this went on for 2 more pages.

i stopped after the drivel on the first page.

But...... but.... it got nostalgic!!

[burky79]

How many houses do you live in? One?
Now how many houses do you care about? Exactly.
If every house on your block has the same security flaw (example; windows that can be easily unlocked from the outside) then you have the same "design based" flaw; and the same security problem as your neighbors. If your house does NOT have the same flaw, you are not as likely to be broken into the same way. It doesn't matter if your house or 10 million houses have the same flaw; to YOU all you care about is fixing YOUR house.
Macs don't have the same security flaws as Windows. So what? I just care about MY macs. Hackers will start coming after macs when they feel like it. We don't know what flaws may be out there. I hope they never decide to find out. I won't be told to start panicking by every "Macs might one day become hacked like Windows" story I see EVERY fucking year.

I've been a mac professional since 1989. I've NEVER seen a mac get hit by a virus. The closest was the Auto-Start worm for MS Office back in '96 (and that was only for Office, not the Mac OS).

mac windoze linux... whatever,

that is a great fucking analogy!!!

A+

:clap:

[sniper]

mac windoze linux... whatever,

that is a great fucking analogy!!!

A+

:clap:

What?? It's a horrible analogy, I got 1 house, but I have 9 PCs in that 1 house. Last i checked a burglar can't replicate himself.
Let's take a worm, which can exploit a port without user interaction, like the Storm worm, which has infected 2million+ PCs to date. Sure, you think your router which blocks ports from the outside will protect you. All it takes is 1 dumb friend to come over to your house, checks their myspace or email. Your router inherently thinks anything on the inside is trusted so now you have 8 PCs added to the storm worm botnet. And if you don't think you're not affected by this shit just because you use a mac you're fooling yourself. Noone knows what this storm worm botnet is doing yet, because everyone that has tried to research it has been attacked. They don't know if that's automatic, or if someone is sitting there watching who hits a certain ip then sends a few of the storm worm zombies to attack the person snooping.
2 million PCs is more than enough to take down multiple backbones across the country, so when you can't get to google, yahoo, amazon, wackbag.. yeah it'll affect you. You say all you care about is YOUR computer, and all I can care about, FIRST HAND is my computers and my network, because you CAN'T depend on your neighbors and other people's security. But when I'm installing wireless networks, and PCs in people's homes, I care about those too and tell my customers how to be careful and install safety measures to do my best at ensuring they won't become part of the problem when the day comes that I can't post on this messageboard.
And yeah, I agree with you about the once a year Mac virus scare, I'll believe it when I see it.

[stellarcomics]

What?? It's a horrible analogy, I got 1 house, but I have 9 PCs in that 1 house. Last i checked a burglar can't replicate himself.
Let's take a worm, which can exploit a port without user interaction, like the Storm worm, which has infected 2million+ PCs to date. Sure, you think your router which blocks ports from the outside will protect you. All it takes is 1 dumb friend to come over to your house, checks their myspace or email. Your router inherently thinks anything on the inside is trusted so now you have 8 PCs added to the storm worm botnet. And if you don't think you're not affected by this shit just because you use a mac you're fooling yourself. Noone knows what this storm worm botnet is doing yet, because everyone that has tried to research it has been attacked. They don't know if that's automatic, or if someone is sitting there watching who hits a certain ip then sends a few of the storm worm zombies to attack the person snooping.
2 million PCs is more than enough to take down multiple backbones across the country, so when you can't get to google, yahoo, amazon, wackbag.. yeah it'll affect you. You say all you care about is YOUR computer, and all I can care about, FIRST HAND is my computers and my network, because you CAN'T depend on your neighbors and other people's security. But when I'm installing wireless networks, and PCs in people's homes, I care about those too and tell my customers how to be careful and install safety measures to do my best at ensuring they won't become part of the problem when the day comes that I can't post on this messageboard.
And yeah, I agree with you about the once a year Mac virus scare, I'll believe it when I see it.

Dude; let's just agree to disagree. I think we're not arguing the same thing anymore. I'm arguing the hysteria around viruses and Macs. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from anymore.

[martianvirus]

If you want to compare macs & PCs to houses...

Mac houses would cost twice as much plus you would not be able to get new furniture. You would be stuck with what you got. When your furniture wares out or you wan a new fridge, you gotta get a whole new expensive house.

A PC house on the other hand would be very cheep. With all the money you save, you can buy a few guns, amo and a fancy security system. And you would have a shitload of money left over. Maybe upgrade your washer & dryer or get a better fridge. Some might spend that left over money on an 80 inch plasma or a trip to Vegas.

edit: and If a pipe went out, the mac would have one expensive choice. Pc would have all kinds for a variety of prices.

[sobi]

I've been a mac professional since 1989. I've NEVER seen a mac get hit by a virus. The closest was the Auto-Start worm for MS Office back in '96 (and that was only for Office, not the Mac OS).

way to ignore your companies fuckups, along with my earlier post pointing them out.:icon_wink


Great old story in regards to Mac and their screw ups.

http://www.blackgate.net/blog/index.php/how-apple-orchestrated-web-attack-on-researchers/

[your dads a pedo]

If you want to compare macs & PCs to houses...

Mac houses would cost twice as much plus you would not be able to get new furniture. You would be stuck with what you got. When your furniture wares out or you wan a new fridge, you gotta get a whole new expensive house.

A PC house on the other hand would be very cheep. With all the money you save, you can buy a few guns, amo and a fancy security system. And you would have a shitload of money left over. Maybe upgrade your washer & dryer or get a better fridge. Some might spend that left over money on an 80 inch plasma or a trip to Vegas.

edit: and If a pipe went out, the mac would have one expensive choice. Pc would have all kinds for a variety of prices.


Or you can buy applecare and if there are any problems you can walk into an apple store and receive a new computer.

Apples arent that much more than pcs anymore. Your arguments are at least 10 years old.

[stellarcomics]

way to ignore your companies fuckups, along with my earlier post pointing them out.:icon_wink

Way to ignore… what? I don't get it?

[stellarcomics]

If you want to compare macs & PCs to houses...

Mac houses would cost twice as much plus you would not be able to get new furniture. You would be stuck with what you got. When your furniture wares out or you wan a new fridge, you gotta get a whole new expensive house.

A PC house on the other hand would be very cheep. With all the money you save, you can buy a few guns, amo and a fancy security system. And you would have a shitload of money left over. Maybe upgrade your washer & dryer or get a better fridge. Some might spend that left over money on an 80 inch plasma or a trip to Vegas.

edit: and If a pipe went out, the mac would have one expensive choice. Pc would have all kinds for a variety of prices.

I'll give you that one.
Great mac systems can be expensive compared to PCs; except the iMac. At $1600 for a 20 inch lcd and a great system, it's a steal. Equivalent components would be around $2200 (I looked this up before I bought mine 1 1/2 years ago).

[patbattlefield]

I'm so glad I started this thread.

[sobi]

Way to ignore… what? I don't get it?


The link I posted. It spotlights apples shady business practices to cover up vulnerabilities that you are stating "don't exist". two peoples business reputations were almost ruined in the process... for no good reason other than lies. All this while releasing over 100 patches for vulnerabilities that "didn't exist".:icon_conf

Since you were unable to locate the link I already provided twice, I'll post it a 3rd time for you... even though you couldn't follow it out of the post you quoted me on. Hell... I'll even c/p it for you.


http://www.blackgate.net/blog/index.php/how-apple-orchestrated-web-attack-on-researchers/
How Apple orchestrated web attack on researchers
Filed under: Security — bblackmoor @ 09:46

Think differentLast summer, when I wrote “Vicious orchestrated assault on MacBook wireless researchers,” it set off a long chain of heated debates and blogs. I had hoped to release the information on who orchestrated the vicious assault, but threats of lawsuits and a spineless company that refused to defend itself meant I couldn’t disclose the details. A lot has changed since then: Researcher David Maynor is no longer working for SecureWorks, and he’s finally given me permission to publish the details.

The scandal broke when Jim Dalrymple put out a hit piece on security researchers David Maynor and Jon “Johnny Cache” Ellch, saying that their research was a “misrepresentation.” Dalrymple based his conclusion solely on the word of Apple PR director Lynn Fox. David Chartier went even further and said that, “SecureWorks admits to falsifying MacBook wireless hack” based solely on a SecureWorks disclaimer (it’s no longer there) that merely reaffirmed what the original video was saying all along — that the hack demonstrated in the video was based on third-party wireless hardware. I had personally interviewed the two researchers before this whole scandal broke out, and I specifically asked Maynor and Ellch if they were using Apple’s Wi-Fi hardware in their official Black Hat demonstration. They clearly said that no Apple Wi-Fi product was used for the exploit. That’s why I was shocked to see the researchers blamed for changing their story and “admitting” they made the whole thing up when no one changed the story and no one admitted to anything. Yet the headline from Chartier, along with Dalrymple’s story, was blasted all over the Web after it made Digg and Slashdot. Everyone simply assumed Maynor and Ellch were frauds because they supposedly “admitted it.”

[…]

So what was the end result of all this? Apple continued to claim that there were no vulnerabilities in Mac OS X, but came a month later and patched its wireless drivers (presumably for vulnerabilities that didn’t actually exist). Apple patched these “nonexistent vulnerabilities” but then refused to give any credit to David Maynor and Jon Ellch. Since Apple was going to take research, not give proper attribution, and smear security researchers, the security research community responded to Apple’s behavior with the MoAB (Month of Apple Bugs) and released a flood of zero-day exploits without giving Apple any notification. The result was that Apple was forced to patch 62 vulnerabilities in just the first three months of 2007, including last week’s megapatch of 45 vulnerabilities.

Apple is a mega corporation that nearly smashed the reputation of two individuals with bogus claims of fraud. It didn’t matter that they weren’t the ones pulling the trigger because they were pulling all the strings. David Chartier should be ashamed of himself and his blog. Jim Dalrymple of Macworld and his colleagues who jumped on the bandwagon should be ashamed of their reporting. Frank Hayes was the only one of Dalrymple’s colleagues who had the decency and honor to apologize. Most of all, shame on Apple.

(from TechRepublic, How Apple orchestrated web attack on researchers)

This supports two things I have been saying ever since I had the misfortune of using a Mac PowerBook for a while and being exposed to the whole “cult of Mac” back in 2005:

1) Macs are not secure. The only reason that Mac users think Macs are secure is because the Apple marketing machine tells them so (as in the recent Mac vs. PC television advertisements) and because Mac users are willfully ignorant.

2) Apple is every bit as ruthless, monopolistic, and anti-consumer as Microsoft is, if not more so. The only real difference between the two companies is that Microsoft is better at it.

[martianvirus]

I'm so glad I started this thread.

Are Ya?

[patbattlefield]

Are Ya?

as a matter of fact, yes.

[Beeman99]

Or you can buy applecare and if there are any problems you can walk into an apple store and receive a new computer.

Apples arent that much more than pcs anymore. Your arguments are at least 10 years old.

I just bought a macbook pro, the one below the 17" model, and it was just over $3000 with the applecare warranty. I can buy a PC laptop, same specs, and a 17" monitor for $2000. Where the fuck do you get your numbers from?

[Beeman99]

as a matter of fact, yes.

that's because you are a disturbed cunt my friend.

Ooo, my gf's 3 year old little girl cousin just ran by, time to go take care of that hard on. meh meh meh

[your dads a pedo]

I just bought a macbook pro, the one below the 17" model, and it was just over $3000 with the applecare warranty. I can buy a PC laptop, same specs, and a 17" monitor for $2000. Where the fuck do you get your numbers from?

I bought a macbook for 1300, and got a free photo printer, I bought ram from ebay and upgraded the harddrive myself. I also bought apple care on ebay.

Everything total came to about 1500. I also have a dell that collects dust now, I dont do computer gaming so this will run photoshop, imovie and does everything I need.

If the macbook is struggling I also have an iMac which is much more powerful then my macbook, plus I have windows xp on the imac so if I need windows for any reason I have it.

The dell hasnt been on in months and is probably going to end up going to the gf or my brother.

[stellarcomics]

The link I posted. It spotlights apples shady business practices to cover up vulnerabilities that you are stating "don't exist". two peoples business reputations were almost ruined in the process... for no good reason other than lies. All this while releasing over 100 patches for vulnerabilities that "didn't exist".:icon_conf

Since you were unable to locate the link I already provided twice, I'll post it a 3rd time for you... even though you couldn't follow it out of the post you quoted me on. Hell... I'll even c/p it for you.


http://www.blackgate.net/blog/index.php/how-apple-orchestrated-web-attack-on-researchers/

You do realize that this article makes my point for me right?

Edit; please show me where I said that Mac viruses "don't exist"… I'll wait.

[sniper]

Hey, it's this thread again.
Mac Book Air falls in 2 minutes.
Have fun kids.
http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9905095-37.html?tag=nefd.top




MacBook Air hacked in security contest
Posted by Tom Krazit | 41 comments

A team of security researchers has won $10,000 for hacking a MacBook Air in two minutes using an undisclosed Safari vulnerability.

IDG News Service is camped out at CanSecWest in lovely Vancouver, Canada, and has chronicled the exploits (gotta love security puns) of Charlie Miller, Jake Honoroff, and Mark Daniel of Independent Security Evaluators during the Pwn to Own contest sponsored by TippingPoint. The team was able to gain control of a MacBook Air on the second day of the hacking competition, which pitted the Air against Windows Vista and Ubuntu machines.

Charlie Miller pwns a MacBook Air at CanSecWest.
(Credit: TippingPoint)

No one was able to execute code on any of the systems on Wednesday, the first day of the contest, when hacks were limited to over-the-network techniques on the operating systems themselves. But on the second day, the rules changed to allow attacks delivered by tricking someone to visit a maliciously crafted Web site, or open an e-mail. Hackers were also allowed to target "default installed client-side applications," such as browsers.

The team had attack code already set up on a Web site, and was able to gain access to the MacBook Air and retrieve a file after judges were "tricked" into visiting the site. According to the TippingPoint DVLabs blog, a newly discovered vulnerability in Safari was used to gain control of the Air.

The contest rules stipulated that winners immediately sign a nondisclosure agreement relating to their technique, so that the vulnerability could be disclosed to the vendor, and TippingPoint said Apple has been informed of the vulnerability.

Last year's contest was won by exploiting a QuickTime vulnerability, which was patched by Apple in less than two weeks. As of the time I posted this, no one had gained control of the Vista or Ubuntu machines, but I'll update later as the results come in over the rest of the afternoon.

[Deadbent]

Hehehe Sniper.

[sobi]

....

[WoodenPlank]

Pwned. Again, Macs are not automatically more secure. Apple is not the home of glodlike programmers, and they do not create perfect code.


Great side note, that the Macbook Air was hacked faster than the Ubuntu and Vista boxes.

[Turfmower]

What is on a Mac that someone would want to hack it? Pc used for businesses so there financial info on them, game accounts on home pc people hacking online gaming accounts to sell shit on ebay.

[WoodenPlank]

What is on a Mac that someone would want to hack it? Pc used for businesses so there financial info on them, game accounts on home pc people hacking online gaming accounts to sell shit on ebay.

Most hackers hack for renown, fame or infamy. They want to make a name for themselves within the community. Some white hats (like these guys) do it for cash by finding shit and helping fix it.