Diabetic Girl Dies After Parents Chose To Treat With Prayer

[BIV]

Metro News Source:
>>Diabetic Girl Dies After Parents Chose To Treat With Prayer

(Weston, WI) -- Some parents in Wisconsin could be facing charges after their eleven-year-old daughter died of an untreated form of diabetes. Authorities say Madeline Neumann died after her parents prayed for her healing rather than seeking medical treatment. Neumann was found unconscious at her home as police followed a request from the girl's niece to check on her welfare. The local police chief said an investigation will determine if a crime has been committed.

I hope they hang these fucks. Stop with the God Damn religion already.









Pun intended.

[LiddyRules]

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2783/robinsonsv5.jpg

[DanaReevesLungs]

Where's your God now Fuck-O's?

Religion is the ultimate fairy tale.

**Edit - Damn you Liddy!

[Smokezilla]

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb304/nposigs/jesus.jpg

[THE FEZ MAN]

but jebuz will provide, they better start praying for a good lawyer

[CM Mark]

[points and laughs]

[WoodenPlank]

but jebuz will provide, they better start praying for a good lawyer

...and he will provide then with a jew.

[Three Hole Puncher]

Uncle Darwin taking out the trash.

[Vyce]

In response, God said: "lol, ur doing it wrong"

[Goober]

Prayers can not save you from the.....http://www.jordanmills.net/Pictures/diabeetus.jpg

[bb1mobile]

So I'm guessing that whole praying thing
kinda didn't work for them? Fuckin asshats.

[Treat_Yourself]

Sucks for the kid, but it serves the parents right to watch their child die slowly. That's the penalty for being a primitive savage who doesn't believe in science.

[Vyce]

Prayers can not save you from the.....http://www.jordanmills.net/Pictures/diabeetus.jpg

A CAT IS FINE TOO:

http://lolcats.com/images/u/07/34/lolcatsdotcom3x26wat1f2fl5kv5.jpg

[SatansCheerledr]

I prayed her diabetes wouldn’t be cured so I guess god loves me more.





I would love to hear how these loony’s justify in their minds how they prayed to their loving god to save their innocent child and their god killed her anyway.

[FAZ8218]

Fuckin morons... this isn't 1345. Go to a fuckin hospital and then pray, you idiots.

[Glenn Dandy]

Them prayers are chuck full of sugar.

[Smokezilla]

Them prayers are chuck full of sugar.

Lock it up!!! LOL:clap:

[FAZ8218]

Them prayers are chuck full of sugar.

Lock it up!!! LOL:clap:
That's pretty fuckin funny. :icon_mrgr

[SatansCheerledr]

Them prayers are chuck full of sugar.

Fucking lock. :clap:

[Plunkies]

God works in mysterious ways...Or doesn't.

[Glenn Dandy]

thats awful SWEET of you guys... hmppph.

[Big Dick Mcgee]

Glenn you are the man.

[SatansCheerledr]

thats awful SWEET of you guys... hmppph.

Know when to say when. :(


:action-sm

[Glenn Dandy]

Glenn you are the man.

that banners fucked up dude... crashed my puter when i clicked it the him n them or whateva... just sayin..


n thanks....

::hammer:

[Glenn Dandy]

Know when to say when. :(


:action-sm

Aint it the truf.


normally I make better decisions but my Blood Sugar was kinda high from church.

[LiddyRules]

I would love to hear how these loony’s justify in their minds how they prayed to their loving god to save their innocent child and their god killed her anyway. When I was but a wee lad (real young) I remember seeing a documentary about faith healers on HBO. Really poor family, I mean dirt poor family had a dying son. They find this faith healer. They give everything to him. All their money, they lose a lot of their property because they believed this faith healer can fix him.

The result.

The boy dies.

Why?

Because they just didn't pray hard enough.

[weakside]

When I was but a wee lad (real young) I remember seeing a documentary about faith healers on HBO. Really poor family, I mean dirt poor family had a dying son. They find this faith healer. They give everything to him. All their money, they lose a lot of their property because they believed this faith healer can fix him.

The result.

The boy dies.

Why?

Because they just didn't pray hard enough.

Disgusting.

[Plunkies]

I also enjoy the "it was god's plan" excuse. If god has a plan why would praying even be an option? He has a plan but he changes it arbitrary when some people ask?

[Hudson]

When I was but a wee lad (real young) I remember seeing a documentary about faith healers on HBO. Really poor family, I mean dirt poor family had a dying son. They find this faith healer. They give everything to him. All their money, they lose a lot of their property because they believed this faith healer can fix him.

The result.

The boy dies.

Why?

Because they just didn't pray hard enough.
I remember hearing stuff like that all the time as a kid.
My top one was a family that put poisonous snakes in a crib with a kid who had leukemia..kid actually lived..go figure..I think he is in a PA Max prison now.

[seeinred]

I don't see how you guys can condemn religion as a whole for stupid shit like this. There are some retarded fucking people out there who believe in God, but I'm sure there are just as many retarded fucking people who don't.

[Hudson]

I don't see how you guys can condemn religion as a whole for stupid shit like this. There are some retarded fucking people out there who believe in God, but I'm sure there are just as many retarded fucking people who don't.
Yeah, but we remember the people who do things in the name of God or a God better.
When did you last hear of someone cutting off his Johnson because logic dictated it to him?(I know there were a few), Setting himself on fire just because, or protesting gays in the military because the Law of Physics said it was evil??
Just saying.

[Plunkies]

I don't see how you guys can condemn religion as a whole for stupid shit like this. There are some retarded fucking people out there who believe in God, but I'm sure there are just as many retarded fucking people who don't.

I believe we're condemning using prayer as a substitute for medical treatment.

I remember hearing stuff like that all the time as a kid.
My top one was a family that put poisonous snakes in a crib with a kid who had leukemia..kid actually lived..go figure..I think he is in a PA Max prison now.

Heh, isn't that the snake cult based solely on one mistranslated line of the bible? Those guys are hysterical.

[BIV]

I don't see how you guys can condemn religion as a whole for stupid shit like this. There are some retarded fucking people out there who believe in God, but I'm sure there are just as many retarded fucking people who don't.

This story is a symptom, religion is the disease. As doctors like to say, "your symptoms may differ."

[Hudson]

I believe we're condemning using prayer as a substitute for medical treatment.



Heh, isn't that the snake cult based solely on one mistranslated line of the bible? Those guys are hysterical.
I guess, they drank Arsnic/Poison ans kissed poisonous snakes..Their churches dotted the Appalachian Mountains when I was a kid..I went to one of their services with my grandpaw's cleaning ladies..it was neat..weird but neat.
My favorite are the no Surgery Catholics...Rubbing of holy oils and cures from the holy land, and blessing with relics..kinda thought those went out in the dark ages.

[seeinred]

This story is a symptom, religion is the disease. As doctors like to say, "your symptoms may differ."

That's a nice little slogan for a t-shirt, but it's wrong. You know why this is a news story? Because it doesn't ever happen. Yes, these people are retarded, but it doesn't mean their daughter would have lived if they were all-knowing, wise atheists.

[BIV]

That's a nice little slogan for a t-shirt, but it's wrong. You know why this is a news story? Because it doesn't ever happen. Yes, these people are retarded, but it doesn't mean their daughter would have lived if they were all-knowing, wise atheists.
Actually, I think the point of the story is that the daughter would be alive if the parents were "all-knowing, wise atheists." You see, then they would have gone to a wise man known as a "doctor" and picked up this magical juice called "insulin." Using the mystical properties of a "needle" the child would be delivered the magic juice and lived. See how that works?

[Voss's Tumor]

That's a nice little slogan for a t-shirt, but it's wrong. You know why this is a news story? Because it doesn't ever happen. Yes, these people are retarded, but it doesn't mean their daughter would have lived if they were all-knowing, wise atheists.

Sorry Michigan, here in Texas it happens all the time. You guys are getting blasted by crazy Christian stories from Texas lately... They just know better than to advertise religion in the media these days.

It's spinning out of control, there's too much communication these days. We've already seen the new ones popping up using a combination of science and aliens, manipulating racism...

Science called. Evolution wins. Human kind wins. Religion is the dinosaur.

Don't get me wrong, if you need this shit to get you through your day without being scared or you need a way to teach morality to your kid because you never take the time to get to know them, use a priest for all I care. My kid knows there is no boogey man because his dad teaches him about reality. He doesn't need your version to keep him in line. Just stay the fuck out of my schools where my smart kid is trying to learn so that he can drag your fucking stupid "The man in the sky" kid wants to pursue a life of theology. My kid's gotta not be shocked when he gets to engineering/law/psychology/anthropology/medical/sociology/etc class so your kid can live a life of happiness under his false guise of a magical protector. Someone's gotta keep him ahead of evolution so he can feel safe. You do that by parenting, not pushing that off on Santa Clause/Jesus/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy. After 4-5 you can use reason and logic and not fables. The secret's out.

P.S. It's this thinking that's kept me from making the decision to even have a kid, because honestly, if he still has to deal with fear based mentalities like yours he might be as pissed off as me my whole life.

[Plunkies]

Actually, I think the point of the story is that the daughter would be alive if the parents were "all-knowing, wise atheists." You see, then they would have gone to a wise man known as a "doctor" and picked up this magical juice called "insulin." Using the mystical properties of a "needle" the child would be delivered the magic juice and lived. See how that works?

Heathen!

[Hudson]

Not one to bunk on either side of Faith or Science..What about the dead guy who came back to life after his family prayed over him recently?
What about all the scientific advances made from faith based cures..what about the studies that have shown that patients that are prayed for recover faster?
Faith is a powerful thing..

[seeinred]

Actually, I think the point of the story is that the daughter would be alive if the parents were "all-knowing, wise atheists." You see, then they would have gone to a wise man known as a "doctor" and picked up this magical juice called "insulin." Using the mystical properties of a "needle" the child would be delivered the magic juice and lived. See how that works?

And my point is that these people are fucking stupid, and it was their stupidity, not religion that caused them to this. Religion can't make people do shit. This is like making the argument that violent video games cause school shootings. Religion is not some magical thing that can force you to do something.

Sorry Michigan, here in Texas it happens all the time. You guys are getting blasted by crazy Christian stories from Texas lately... They just know better than to advertise religion in the media these days.

It's spinning out of control, there's too much communication these days. We've already seen the new ones popping up using a combination of science and aliens, manipulating racism...

Science called. Evolution wins. Human kind wins. Religion is the dinosaur.

Don't get me wrong, if you need this shit to get you through your day without being scared or you need a way to teach morality to your kid because you never take the time to get to know them, use a priest for all I care. My kid knows there is no boogey man because his dad teaches him about reality. He doesn't need your version to keep him in line. Just stay the fuck out of my schools where my smart kid is trying to learn so that he can drag your fucking stupid "The man in the sky" kid wants to pursue a life of theology. My kid's gotta not be shocked when he gets to engineering/law/psychology/anthropology/medical/sociology/etc class so your kid can live a life of happiness under his false guise of a magical protector. Someone's gotta keep him ahead of evolution so he can feel safe. You do that by parenting, not pushing that off on Santa Clause/Jesus/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy. After 4-5 you can use reason and logic and not fables. The secret's out.

P.S. It's this thinking that's kept me from making the decision to even have a kid, because honestly, if he still has to deal with fear based mentalities like yours he might be as pissed off as me my whole life.

This is the kind of bullshit that pisses me off the most. This condescension about how I'm a fucking hayseed for believing in a supreme being. It's the whole "I'm smarter than you because I don't believe in God" thing. Yes, I believe in God. But guess what, I can believe in science at the same time. I've taken biology, I've taken chemistry, I've taken law classes, psych classes, philosophy classes, physics classes and all that shit. And some of the things I've been taught go against what one would believe if one interpreted the Bible literally. But I for one have no problem believing in science. Religion and science are not these polar opposite/mutually exclusive concepts, and the too-cool-for-the-room-because-I'm-an-atheist people piss me off just as much as the fucking Bible thumpers do.

[Plunkies]

This is the kind of bullshit that pisses me off the most. This condescension about how I'm a fucking hayseed for believing in a supreme being. It's the whole "I'm smarter than you because I don't believe in God" thing. Yes, I believe in God. But guess what, I can believe in science at the same time. I've taken biology, I've taken chemistry, I've taken law classes, psych classes, philosophy classes, physics classes and all that shit. And some of the things I've been taught go against what one would believe if one interpreted the Bible literally. But I for one have no problem believing in science. Religion and science are not these polar opposite/mutually exclusive concepts, and the too-cool-for-the-room-because-I'm-an-atheist people piss me off just as much as the fucking Bible thumpers do.

You're the one who trolled for that kind of a response. People were just goofing on the story until you decided to bait people.

[BIV]

Not one to bunk on either side of Faith or Science..What about the dead guy who came back to life after his family prayed over him recently?
What about all the scientific advances made from faith based cures..what about the studies that have shown that patients that are prayed for recover faster?
Faith is a powerful thing..

Those same studies also showed you could get the exact same response through meditation. It's not faith but the relaxed state that lets the body divert more energy to healing and releases certain chemicals into the body.

As for the guy who died and came back or prays over unconscious people, that's called coincidence.

[seeinred]

You're the one who trolled for that kind of a response. People were just goofing on the story until you decided to bait people.

No, there were a couple of them already. It really doesn't bother me, but I kinda did feel like having a discussion about it.

Metro News Source:


I hope they hang these fucks. Stop with the God Damn religion already.




Sucks for the kid, but it serves the parents right to watch their child die slowly. That's the penalty for being a primitive savage who doesn't believe in science.

[Plunkies]

No, there were a couple of them already. It really doesn't bother me, but I kinda did feel like having a discussion about it.

Meh. There's threads with worse things said about entire races of people but you never get mad at those. And I'm sure there's plenty of threads where you got destroyed in an argument just like this and decided to cut your losses and stop posting, why not resurrect one of those?

[Voss's Tumor]

This is the kind of bullshit that pisses me off the most. This condescension about how I'm a fucking hayseed for believing in a supreme being. It's the whole "I'm smarter than you because I don't believe in God" thing. Yes, I believe in God. But guess what, I can believe in science at the same time. I've taken biology, I've taken chemistry, I've taken law classes, psych classes, philosophy classes, physics classes and all that shit. And some of the things I've been taught go against what one would believe if one interpreted the Bible literally. But I for one have no problem believing in science. Religion and science are not these polar opposite/mutually exclusive concepts, and the too-cool-for-the-room-because-I'm-an-atheist people piss me off just as much as the fucking Bible thumpers do.



You're the one who trolled for that kind of a response. People were just goofing on the story until you decided to bait people.

Ding, ding, ding, ding fucking ding. Schools teach science and math, churches teach religion. Keep your fables out of my school, I'll keep my evolution out of your church. Knock on my door with a tie and tell me my wife is an inferior form of human (sorry baggers, I do think women are their own kind of equal, I still wanna fuck 'em in the mouth), tell me a **** victim is a murderer for not wanting to carry the seed of the piece of shit who assaulted her, and you tell me that millions of scientists finding fossils are lying to me and I'm going to call you a fucking child. That's just the way that is.

Oh, and I want to hear you explain how Church of Christ thinks people who play musical instruments coming out at the same time of fear of rock music, Baptists saying dancing is the road to hell because of the Lam Bada, and Scientology becoming the hot ticket religion in an age of star wars and tax evasion are not a very clear example of human evolution just like Apollo dragging the sun across the sky was to the Romans.

Yeah, I'm the dumb, too cool for the room guy. Honestly dude, what makes me better than you in my mind is that I know I'm probably not right, I don't have a magical ghost in the sky to tell me I'm his special little guy, I'm trying to figure shit out for myself so that stupid fucks know how to generate their own power in a world where politics tells me nuclear power is unsafe, when I know for a scientific, medical, and environmental fact that it's not. Ever hear about the guy who's frustrated that he's never been able to use his degree because of politics? Hi.

Keep your fairy tales out of my schools and we'll never have a problem. Knock on my door? You're going to hear why I think you're a fucking idiot.

You knocked.

[Hudson]

And my point is that these people are fucking stupid, and it was their stupidity, not religion that caused them to this. Religion can't make people do shit. This is like making the argument that violent video games cause school shootings. Religion is not some magical thing that can force you to do something.



Are you retarded or just ignorant? History is full of things that people, because of religion have done..not because of stupidity..because of faith.
The Temples, The Parthenon, 911....

[Voss's Tumor]

I guess he went off to pray for an answer?

[seeinred]

Ding, ding, ding, ding fucking ding. Schools teach science and math, churches teach religion. Keep your fables out of my school, I'll keep my evolution out of your church. Knock on my door with a tie and tell me my wife is an inferior form of human (sorry baggers, I do think women are their own kind of equal, I still wanna fuck 'em in the mouth), tell me a **** victim is a murderer for not wanting to carry the seed of the piece of shit who assaulted her, and you tell me that millions of scientists finding fossils are lying to me and I'm going to call you a fucking child. That's just the way that is.

Oh, and I want to hear you explain how Church of Christ thinks people who play musical instruments coming out at the same time of fear of rock music, Baptists saying dancing is the road to hell because of the Lam Bada, and Scientology becoming the hot ticket religion in an age of star wars and tax evasion are not a very clear example of human evolution just like Apollo dragging the sun across the sky was to the Romans.

Yeah, I'm the dumb, too cool for the room guy. Honestly dude, what makes me better than you in my mind is that I know I'm probably not right, I don't have a magical ghost in the sky to tell me I'm his special little guy, I'm trying to figure shit out for myself so that stupid fucks know how to generate their own power in a world where politics tells me nuclear power is unsafe, when I know for a scientific, medical, and environmental fact that it's not. Ever hear about the guy who's frustrated that he's never been able to use his degree because of politics? Hi.

Keep your fairy tales out of my schools and we'll never have a problem. Knock on my door? You're going to hear why I think you're a fucking idiot.

You knocked.

Where did I say I want Creationism taught in school? Where did I say **** victims can't have an abortion? Where did I say that I attribute every inexplicable detail of life to God's master plan? You're painting all Christians as these fucking idiots who think everything in the world is as it is because God made it that way, who want to force their morality on other people when that's clearly not the case. Lots of Christians are crazy, but so are lots of people who aren't Christians. You're obviously a smart dude, and I respect your opinion on most things, but to call me ignorant and think you're better than me for the sole fact that I believe in God is ignorant in its own right.

I think it's completely fine to not believe in God. I'll never be one of those people knocking at your door trying to convert you, but you're doing exactly that. You're saying that your way is better and that Christians need to not be Christians in order to know what's up, and in that, you're doing exactly what you're condemning some Christians for.

[seeinred]

Are you retarded or just ignorant? History is full of things that people, because of religion have done..not because of stupidity..because of faith.
The Temples, The Parthenon, 911....

I'll give you that Islam seems to be a little different in that regard, but I don't know enough about the Koran to speak knowledgeably on it really. As for the other things, I'm not saying that people's religious beliefs haven't had a part in their actions. I'm saying that people do things because they want, not because God forces them to do it.

[BIV]

You're saying that your way is better and that Christians need to not be Christians in order to know what's up, and in that, you're doing exactly what you're condemning some Christians for.

No, we are saying religion, all religion, is backwards, outdated, illogical, savage, nonfactual and just wrong. Believe whatever you want, but anything outside of science just doesn't exist. And I will continue to point out every rediculous fucking thing religious nuts do until this world grows up, abandons religion and moves into the 18th century.

[Hudson]

And my point is that these people are fucking stupid, and it was their stupidity, not religion that caused them to this. Religion can't make people do shit. This is like making the argument that violent video games cause school shootings. Religion is not some magical thing that can force you to do something.



This is the kind of bullshit that pisses me off the most. This condescension about how I'm a fucking hayseed for believing in a supreme being. It's the whole "I'm smarter than you because I don't believe in God" thing. Yes, I believe in God. But guess what, I can believe in science at the same time. I've taken biology, I've taken chemistry, I've taken law classes, psych classes, philosophy classes, physics classes and all that shit. And some of the things I've been taught go against what one would believe if one interpreted the Bible literally. But I for one have no problem believing in science. Religion and science are not these polar opposite/mutually exclusive concepts, and the too-cool-for-the-room-because-I'm-an-atheist people piss me off just as much as the fucking Bible thumpers do.
Snookums...chill out..I took all those too..plus seminary, almost became a priest..I never lost my faith..I just learned to take things and research others..
Biv..addendum to your response..pets, both robotic and real pets do seem to do the real thing...but faith baised stuff has a bigger response in the brain..from what I have read.
Biv, I fail to believe that religion is backwards.
Not even science explains all things...

[seeinred]

No, we are saying religion, all religion, is backwards, outdated, illogical, savage, nonfactual and just wrong. Believe whatever you want, but anything outside of science just doesn't exist. And I will continue to point out every rediculous fucking thing religious nuts do until this world grows up, abandons religion and moves into the 18th century.

And I'm saying that's not true. Religion, as a sole means of living your life is stupid. There is absolutely no reason religion and science can not coexist. I believe in God, but I also happen to believe when my doctor tells me I have an infection that these antibiotics will cure it.

Snookums...chill out..I took all those too..plus seminary, almost became a priest..I never lost my faith..I just learned to take things and research others..
Biv..addendum to your response..pets, both robotic and real pets do seem to do the real thing...but faith baised stuff has a bigger response in the brain..from what I have read.

That's what I'm saying though. I'm saying you can be a Christian and believe in science. It doesn't make a person stupid for the SOLE fact that they believe in God. If that's the only thing you believe in in this world, then yes, you're a fucking retard. But other people seem to be saying that ANYONE who believes in God can't possibly be as smart as them. At least I don't see other people making a distinction between people like you and people like the parents in this story.

[Voss's Tumor]

Where did I say I want Creationism taught in school? Where did I say **** victims can't have an abortion? Where did I say that I attribute every inexplicable detail of life to God's master plan? You're painting all Christians as these fucking idiots who think everything in the world is as it is because God made it that way, who want to force their morality on other people when that's clearly not the case. Lots of Christians are crazy, but so are lots of people who aren't Christians. You're obviously a smart dude, and I respect your opinion on most things, but to call me ignorant and think you're better than me for the sole fact that I believe in God is ignorant in its own right.

I think it's completely fine to not believe in God. I'll never be one of those people knocking at your door trying to convert you, but you're doing exactly that. You're saying that your way is better and that Christians need to not be Christians in order to know what's up, and in that, you're doing exactly what you're condemning some Christians for.

Your nature suggests that you choose the magical ghost's side. I know that particular side is a fairy tale.

This is not an agree to disagree issue. Your people are invading my science. My scientists have been sitting back and learning facts without fucking with you guys other than passively, because hey, we don't let snake oil salesmen speak for us publicly, we smack his dumb ass down.

Smack down your leaders, quit defending your ghost in a nature of good naturedism to prove your passive aggressive point politically, and stop with the victim mentality and we can talk like adults. This "Who me?" mentality is something I've been done with since birth.

[weakside]

And my point is that these people are fucking stupid, and it was their stupidity, not religion that caused them to this. Religion can't make people do shit. This is like making the argument that violent video games cause school shootings. Religion is not some magical thing that can force you to do something.

This is a fair point. And I don't think anyone would argue with you that these people are stupid and that beyond anything else is why their child is dead.

But for your point to be completely valid you would also have to assume that if these people were not religious they still would not have taken their child to the doctor, and I think you would have to admit that likely would not have been the case.

As stupid as these people were, they didn't choose to paint their kid green or put her in a box with holes in it in order to cure her disease, they decided to "pray it away". What is significant about this idea is that they are not the only ones choosing this path. This means that some aspect of religion suggests that this is a good plan.

One of the problems with religion is that there are many different interpretations of it, even within the same faith. Yet nearly all of them demand your allegiance as it dictates its interpretation is the one and only true philosophy. Say what you will about video games, guns, or any of the other "slippery slopes" people use for blaming bad behavior, none of those things say your going to burn in Hell for all eternity if you don't subscribe to it. This is what makes religion dangerous.

[Plunkies]

But other people seem to be saying that ANYONE who believes in God can't possibly be as smart as them.

Imagine if you knew a grown adult who believed in Santa...

[Voss's Tumor]

This is a fair point. And I don't think anyone would argue with you that these people are stupid and that beyond anything else is why their child is dead.

But for your point to be completely valid you would also have to assume that if these people were not religious they still would not have taken their child to the doctor, and I think you would have to admit that likely would not have been the case.

As stupid as these people were, they didn't choose to paint their kid green or put her in a box with holes in it in order to cure her disease, they decided to "pray it away". What is significant about this idea is that they are not the only ones choosing this path. This means that some aspect of religion suggests that this is a good plan.

One of the problems with religion is that there are many different interpretations of it, even within the same faith. Yet nearly all of them demand your allegiance as it dictates its interpretation is the one and only true philosophy. Say what you will about video games, guns, or any of the other "slippery slopes" people use for blaming bad behavior, none of those things say your going to burn in Hell for all eternity if you don't subscribe to it. This is what makes religion dangerous.

While I really do appreciate your effort to see things from his point of view, I have to say I had the same feeling Patrice had in studio when the movie star tried to appeal to Dr. Z because he saw an opportunity to play good cop/bad cop.

My policy is, if a religious guy wants to try to air out his opinions, let him defend them. My science always wins. When my "religion" preaches a mentality of theory --> postulate --> law and their's preaches "If this scares you, we'll make up a story to explain it", I'm just going to rely on my best theory of Evolution. Maybe I should figure out a science that makes birth control illegal so that I can out breed them. Learn from the enemy I guess?

[seeinred]

Your nature suggests that you choose the magical ghost's side. I know that particular side is a fairy tale.

This is not an agree to disagree issue. Your people are invading my science. My scientists have been sitting back and learning facts without fucking with you guys other than passively, because hey, we don't let snake oil salesmen speak for us publicly, we smack his dumb ass down.

Smack down your leaders, quit defending your ghost in a nature of good naturedism to prove your passive aggressive point politically, and stop with the victim mentality and we can talk like adults. This "Who me?" mentality is something I've been done with since birth.

My nature? I really don't even know what you mean by that.

Anyway, see how you can nicely and conveniently say "your people" and "your leaders"? I can't do that. If there was a church of atheism and leaders of your kind, it would be a fair comparison for you to tell me to not let these crazy people say what they say.

And what specifically are you referring to when you talk of passive-aggressivism? I already told you that I'm not some crazy religious zealot. I just happen to believe in God. To lump me in with those people is quite honestly just stupid and lazy of you. The funnything is, I think that we feel probably feel very similarly on most issues, but you either can't accept or it bugs you that a Christian can have logical thoughts that don't begin with, "Well, God says..." I just don't think it's fair of you to call all Christians stupid just because they believe in God. I can't stress that enough. The belief in a supreme being does not negate a person's views. It just doesn't. I'm with you 100% that people like the ones in this article are fucking stupid, and religion certainly plays a role in that. But it's not because of religion, it's because of those people.

This is a fair point. And I don't think anyone would argue with you that these people are stupid and that beyond anything else is why their child is dead.

But for your point to be completely valid you would also have to assume that if these people were not religious they still would not have taken their child to the doctor, and I think you would have to admit that likely would not have been the case.

As stupid as these people were, they didn't choose to paint their kid green or put her in a box with holes in it in order to cure her disease, they decided to "pray it away". What is significant about this idea is that they are not the only ones choosing this path. This means that some aspect of religion suggests that this is a good plan.

One of the problems with religion is that there are many different interpretations of it, even within the same faith. Yet nearly all of them demand your allegiance as it dictates its interpretation is the one and only true philosophy. Say what you will about video games, guns, or any of the other "slippery slopes" people use for blaming bad behavior, none of those things say your going to burn in Hell for all eternity if you don't subscribe to it. This is what makes religion dangerous.

I appreciate the fact that you can talk about this without painting all Christians as retards and without being condescending. Like I said above, I don't believe that religion didn't play a role in this, and if I said that or gave that impression previously, it wasn't my intention. I just believe that these people were the deciding factor in this. Religion is like pretty much anything else I think, in that if the wrong people use it the wrong way, some bad shit can happen.

[Hudson]

While I really do appreciate your effort to see things from his point of view, I have to say I had the same feeling Patrice had in studio when the movie star tried to appeal to Dr. Z because he saw an opportunity to play good cop/bad cop.

My policy is, if a religious guy wants to try to air out his opinions, let him defend them. My science always wins. When my "religion" preaches a mentality of theory --> postulate --> law and their's preaches "If this scares you, we'll make up a story to explain it", I'm just going to rely on my best theory of Evolution. Maybe I should figure out a science that makes birth control illegal so that I can out breed them. Learn from the enemy I guess?
This seems really stupid, but I was trained to believe that "God was in the Science". As well as Miracles happen through science, when I was in the Seminary. (Probably why that aspect shut down)(I never finished because I found sex.)
Being post Vatican2..never thought of my faith in absolutes...just believe in miracles can happen

[Plunkies]

Seems kind of silly and hypocritical to get mad at someone who calls religion stupid. Your Bible calls him a wicked fool and says he'll be condemned to hell for eternity because he's not as valuable of a human being as you. Even if he said every Christian is a fucking tard he's still being nicer than Christianity is being to him.

[BIV]

And I'm saying that's not true. Religion, as a sole means of living your life is stupid. There is absolutely no reason religion and science can not coexist. I believe in God,.

You should have stopped there. The very concept of God is not compatible with science. Whatever else you add to it in a religious rulebook is just building on that lack of science.

[seeinred]

You should have stopped there. The very concept of God is not compatible with science. Whatever else you add to it in a religious rulebook is just building on that lack of science.

Yes, it is. I'm telling you that I believe in God. I'm telling you that I believe in science. What am I not making clear? If they're not compatible, why aren't all Christians dead from simple infections, the flu or pneumonia?

Just because the Bible says that got created the world in 6 days doesn't mean that I have to believe that a span of 144 hours, God made things magically appear here on earth. Do you see what I'm saying? God and science can harmoniously co-exist. I mean that the Bible isn't the be-all, end-all thing for Christians.

[Voss's Tumor]

My nature? I really don't even know what you mean by that.

Anyway, see how you can nicely and conveniently say "your people" and "your leaders"? I can't do that. If there was a church of atheism and leaders of your kind, it would be a fair comparison for you to tell me to not let these crazy people say what they say.

And what specifically are you referring to when you talk of passive-aggressivism? I already told you that I'm not some crazy religious zealot. I just happen to believe in God. To lump me in with those people is quite honestly just stupid and lazy of you. The funnything is, I think that we feel probably feel very similarly on most issues, but you either can't accept or it bugs you that a Christian can have logical thoughts that don't begin with, "Well, God says..." I just don't think it's fair of you to call all Christians stupid just because they believe in God. I can't stress that enough. The belief in a supreme being does not negate a person's views. It just doesn't. I'm with you 100% that people like the ones in this article are fucking stupid, and religion certainly plays a role in that. But it's not because of religion, it's because of those people.



I appreciate the fact that you can talk about this without painting all Christians as retards and without being condescending. Like I said above, I don't believe that religion didn't play a role in this, and if I said that or gave that impression previously, it wasn't my intention. I just believe that these people were the deciding factor in this. Religion is like pretty much anything else I think, in that if the wrong people use it the wrong way, some bad shit can happen.

Your "science" is to ignore evolution and knock on my door to tell me so. I'm not saying that your particular religion does this, but I'm saying that your belief in religion as a whole causes this to happen.

You've given up, I get it. At some point in your life you found that "faith" was what you needed to survive. I chose to listen to smart people without agendas, you chose to listen to guys passing a collection plate. I'm almost 30 and still willing to learn things that don't mirror mythology that we now laugh at.

If you chose political correctness, if you chose safety, if you chose submission to an idea, that's cool for you. Find a leader who will validate your positions. You leaders sound stupid, the last leader I had fought Neils Bohr for 20 years being wrong and was proven right by Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Faith manifests in different ways, stop trying to tell me you're right when all I'm trying to say is I don't even know if I am.

Stop knocking, you won't have to hear from me. My diligence will save you while you live life in a fog. In the end, you'll appreciate I exist, because I'll be able to explain things to you when you reach your breaking point when your political party destroys the environment, economy, sociology, and politics.

I just want to tell you to stop pushing your ideas on me, I'm too busy learning. I acknowledge I need to figure this world out for myself, you think a ghost has your back. Stay in your corner, I'll stay in mine.

This seems really stupid, but I was trained to believe that "God was in the Science". As well as Miracles happen through science, when I was in the Seminary. (Probably why that aspect shut down)(I never finished because I found sex.)
Being post Vatican2..never thought of my faith in absolutes...just believe in miracles

God is in science, science is in god, it's all the same shit. Whatever created us might not really even be able to exist to someone here right now. Imagine explaining a fire to a dinosaur, an explosion to a cave man, nuclear explosion to a Spanish Inquisition. We all learn new shit and it's always scary, we're all on the same planet. Some of us just decide to keep learning and not give in to the fear of the unknown.

(Just adding to your point Hudson)

[seeinred]

Your "science" is to ignore evolution and knock on my door to tell me so. I'm not saying that your particular religion does this, but I'm saying that your belief in religion as a whole causes this to happen.

You've given up, I get it. At some point in your life you found that "faith" was what you needed to survive. I chose to listen to smart people without agendas, so I'm almost 30 and still willing to learn things that don't mirror mythology that we now laugh at.

If you chose political correctness, if you chose safety, if you chose submission to an idea, that's cool for you. Find a leader who will validate your positions. You leaders sound stupid, the last leader I had fought Neils Bohr for 20 years being wrong and was proven right by Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Faith manifests in different ways, stop trying to tell me you're right when all I'm trying to say is I don't even know if I am.

Stop knocking, you won't have to hear from me. My diligence will save you while you live life in a fog. In the end, you'll appreciate I exist, because I'll be able to explain things to you when you reach your breaking point when your political party destroys the environment, economy, sociology, and politics.

I just want to tell you to stop pushing your ideas on me, I'm too busy learning. I acknowledge I need to figure this world out for myself, you think a ghost has your back. Stay in your corner, I'll stay in mine.





Have you read a word I've typed? NOWHERE have I forced an ideal on you. I've simply called you out for believing that Christians are inferior intellectually. I've never said I live in some divine clarity because of my beliefs. I choose to believe in God, but that doesn't mean that life and the world aren't confusing as shit. I'm not saying I'm right about anything, I'm just saying that I'm not automatically wrong because I believe in God. I don't know what kind of secret subtext I'm producing here, but I don't know how to say it any more simply.

And I haven't given up on anything. You seem to think that all people choose religion as an easy way out to explain the inexplicable. You're wrong on that count. I want to know how I've chosen submission to an idea any more than you've chosen submission to scientific ideas. And I don't know why you think I need a leader to validate my views. Condemn Christian leaders all you want. I'll stand right beside you as you do it.

You seem very disillusioned about Christianity, and that's completely fine, but there's absolutely no reason to disparage me, and I'll emphasize this once more, JUST BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN GOD. That is the only fucking difference. I believe in God, you don't. Good for me, good for you. That's no reason to stop us from having similar, acceptable, logical, and who knows, maybe even correct views on other things.

[BIV]

Yes, it is. I'm telling you that I believe in God. I'm telling you that I believe in science. What am I not making clear? If they're not compatible, why aren't all Christians dead from simple infections, the flu or pneumonia?

Just because the Bible says that got created the world in 6 days doesn't mean that I have to believe that a span of 144 hours, God made things magically appear here on earth. Do you see what I'm saying? God and science can harmoniously co-exist. I mean that the Bible isn't the be-all, end-all thing for Christians.

But you have to start with the premise that there is an invisible man in the sky who is completely outside the laws of physics. What you believe is irrelevant, it's scientifically not possible.

[Voss's Tumor]

Have you read a word I've typed? NOWHERE have I forced an ideal on you. I've simply called you out for believing that Christians are inferior intellectually. I've never said I live in some divine clarity because of my beliefs. I choose to believe in God, but that doesn't mean that life and the world aren't confusing as shit. I'm not saying I'm right about anything, I'm just saying that I'm not automatically wrong because I believe in God. I don't know what kind of secret subtext I'm producing here, but I don't know how to say it any more simply.

And I haven't given up on anything. You seem to think that all people choose religion as an easy way out to explain the inexplicable. You're wrong on that count. I want to know how I've chosen submission to an idea any more than you've chosen submission to scientific ideas. And I don't know why you think I need a leader to validate my views. Condemn Christian leaders all you want. I'll stand right beside you as you do it.

You seem very disillusioned about Christianity, and that's completely fine, but there's absolutely no reason to disparage me, and I'll emphasize this once more, JUST BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN GOD. That is the only fucking difference. I believe in God, you don't. Good for me, good for you. That's no reason to stop us from having similar, acceptable, logical, and who knows, maybe even correct views on other things.

I disparage you because you believe in something other than yourself and your own beliefs.

If your people ever pick a leader who can explain your position to my side instead of just trying to outbreed my side, I'm polarizing this argument in my mind, because what we're learning about he world right now, in my eyes, that the only constant we've known since Jesus is the Crusades and Jews are evil and polytheism is stupid and religion can manipulate every intelligent argument.

The very nature of your belief screams "SPREAD THE WORD" while mine preaches, "Wait til you know the whole story, or tell us when you're stumped". I'm sorry, I choose reason to fairy tales.

Don't knock and I won't answer.

[Hudson]

Faith manifests in different ways, stop trying to tell me you're right when all I'm trying to say is I don't even know if I am.

Stop knocking, you won't have to hear from me. My diligence will save you while you live life in a fog. In the end, you'll appreciate I exist, because I'll be able to explain things to you when you reach your breaking point when your political party destroys the environment, economy, sociology, and politics.

I just want to tell you to stop pushing your ideas on me, I'm too busy learning. I acknowledge I need to figure this world out for myself, you think a ghost has your back. Stay in your corner, I'll stay in mine.



God is in science, science is in god, it's all the same shit. Whatever created us might not really even be able to exist to someone here right now. Imagine explaining a fire to a dinosaur, an explosion to a cave man, nuclear explosion to a Spanish Inquisition. We all learn new shit and it's always scary, we're all on the same planet. Some of us just decide to keep learning and not give in to the fear of the unknown.

(Just adding to your point Hudson)
No worries!

[seeinred]

But you have to start with the premise that there is an invisible man in the sky who is completely outside the laws of physics. What you believe is irrelevant, it's scientifically not possible.

Oh yeah, I forgot that one law of physics that scientifically proves that there's absolutely no way that there could possibly be a God in any form anywhere in the universe or beyond.

I disparage you because you believe in something other than yourself and your own beliefs.

If your people ever pick a leader who can explain your position to my side instead of just trying to outbreed my side, I'm polarizing this argument in my mind, because what we're learning about he world right now, in my eyes, that the only constant we've known since Jesus is the Crusades and Jews are evil and polytheism is stupid and religion can manipulate every intelligent argument.

The very nature of your belief screams "SPREAD THE WORD" while mine preaches, "Wait til you know the whole story, or tell us when you're stumped". I'm sorry, I choose reason to fairy tales.

Don't knock and I won't answer.

So it's like an "I beat you because I love you" type deal eh?

You're putting words in my mouth and refusing to read what I write. I told you that I believe in science. I'm not trying to convert you to Christianity. I'm not trying to manipulate any intelligent argument with religion. There is no point in my life where I have ever chosen a fairy tale, as you call it, over science, reason, or logic. Lumping me in with people like that is exactly the same as me calling you a communist because Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin were all atheists, even though you're clearly not (I think).

And do you know how many legendary scientists believed in God or a god? Many made advances in their fields while being religious. I don't see how you can say that they're incompatible.

[BIV]

Oh yeah, I forgot that one law of physics that scientifically proves that there's absolutely no way that there could possibly be a God in any form anywhere in the universe or beyond.

I don't have to, you can't prove a negative. It's up to believers to prove he exists, until then there is no God.

[seeinred]

I don't have to, you can't prove a negative. It's up to believers to prove he exists, until then there is no God.

Ok, then you should have said that. Like I said, you don't have to believe in God. That's fine with me. But I don't need to prove it either. I can just believe it. And since it hasn't been disproved, you can't condemn that belief in the name of science.

[BIV]

Ok, then you should have said that. Like I said, you don't have to believe in God. That's fine with me. But I don't need to prove it either. I can just believe it. And since it hasn't been disproved, you can't condemn that belief in the name of science.
No, that's not how science works. "There is no God" is the control, like saying "Water is wet." Until the control is proven otherwise, I can condemn God in the name of Science.

To use a hack example, prove to be the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. You can't. so are we to assume there is a possibility that there is a Tooth Fairy out there? No, that's rediculous and not how science works.

And yes, you can believe whatever you choose, but the progress of our race will continued to be stunted until we remove this primitive brainwashing from the face of the planet.

[seeinred]

No, that's not how science works. "There is no God" is the control, like saying "Water is wet." Until the control is proven otherwise, I can condemn God in the name of Science.

To use a hack example, prove to be the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. You can't. so are we to assume there is a possibility that there is a Tooth Fairy out there? No, that's rediculous and not how science works.

And yes, you can believe whatever you choose, but the progress of our race will continued to be stunted until we remove this primitive brainwashing from the face of the planet.

No, it won't. I'm not hindering any of your lofty and majestic goals for humankind by my one simple belief.

As for your example, since it hasn't been disproved, there is a possibility that the tooth fairy exists, as unlikely (and I suppose silly) that seems. It's that simple. If it hasn't been proved either way, then one or the other could be true.

[Hudson]

BIV, I respect you, albeit you are fixated on posting sexy pictures of women that crash my computer.
But as much as I love science...I cannot dismiss all I have seen through pure scientific examples...

[BIV]

As for your example, since it hasn't been disproved, there is a possibility that the tooth fairy exists, as unlikely (and I suppose silly) that seems. It's that simple. If it hasn't been proved either way, then one or the other could be true.

You show a lack of a basic understanding of the scientific process. You don't need to prove either way, you only need to prove "for."

A. There is no physical evidence of God.
B. Any "evidence" that has been presented is anecdotal, not repeatable and therefore not usable in science
c. There is no scientific theory, concrete or theoretical, that allows for the existence of God.

Therefore, in science, there is no God. That is the control.

This is basic scientific process and cannot be refuted.

Lets take this out of "fairy tales." H2O cannot retain a solid state above the boiling point. I don't need to prove that, it's a control. The burden of evidence rests on the shoulders of the scientist trying to prove an alternate to a control. Until someone proves otherwise, "H2O cannot retain a solid state above the boiling point" remains a scientific theory, or in layman's terms, a fact.

BIV, I respect you, albeit you are fixated on posting sexy pictures of women that crash my computer.
But as much as I love science...I cannot dismiss all I have seen through pure scientific examples...

Everything "seen" has a scientific explanation, even if you don't know to explain it yourself. Unlike God that can't even be seen.

[BIV]

Let me add Hudson, that I have seen some freaky shit in my life. Most of which seemed to me to be spiritual activity I saw as a child. But as an adult who is scientifically minded, I can look back on those incidents and know there must be sound, scientific explanations for what I saw, even if I don't know what it was. I know that because everything has a scientific explanation...that's what science is, it's how you explain everything.

[seeinred]

You show a lack of a basic understanding of the scientific process. You don't need to prove either way, you only need to prove "for."

A. There is no physical evidence of God.
B. Any "evidence" that has been presented is anecdotal, not repeatable and therefore not usable in science
c. There is no scientific theory, concrete or theoretical, that allows for the existence of God.

Therefore, in science, there is no God. That is the control.

This is basic scientific process and cannot be refuted.

Lets take this out of "fairy tales." H2O cannot retain a solid state above the boiling point. I don't need to prove that, it's a control. The burden of evidence rests on the shoulders of the scientist trying to prove an alternate to a control. Until someone proves otherwise, "H2O cannot retain a solid state above the boiling point" remains a scientific theory, or in layman's terms, a fact.




Right. I didn't say that there has to be a God in science. And I'm not showing a lack of understanding. Despite the fact that the control exists, there is the possibility, no matter how small, that the opposite is true. For all you know, some incredibly crazy situation exists where water can retain a solid state above the boiling point. Although the theory is that it can't, it doesn't mean that it irrefutably can't, despite that no counterexample to the theory has been presented. I understand that that's a "fact" but it doesn't necessarily mean it's true for everything ever everywhere.

But regardless, I don't expect scientists to believe there is a God in the context of science. I don't think I believe that there is a God in the context of science in the way that you're talking about it here.

[WOWmagnet]

Religion is for the weak minded and the ignorant.

[Hudson]

Let me add Hudson, that I have seen some freaky shit in my life. Most of which seemed to me to be spiritual activity I saw as a child. But as an adult who is scientifically minded, I can look back on those incidents and know there must be sound, scientific explanations for what I saw, even if I don't know what it was. I know that because everything has a scientific explanation...that's what science is, it's how you explain everything.So everything can be explained by science?...hmm, I beg to differ..

[seeinred]

Religion is for the weak minded and the ignorant.

Nice contribution, backed by concrete examples and evidence. :action-sm

[BIV]

Religion is for the weak minded and the ignorant.
Thank you for contributing nothing.

Edit: God damn it, now you have me agreeing with seeinred. Damn you, damn you straight to hell.

[seeinred]

Thank you for contributing nothing.

Edit: God damn it, now you have me agreeing with seeinred. Damn you, damn you straight to hell.

:haha7::haha7:

See, I can have rational thoughts despite the fact that my judgment is clouded by religion :action-sm

[BIV]

But regardless, I don't expect scientists to believe there is a God in the context of science. I don't think I believe that there is a God in the context of science in the way that you're talking about it here.

So everything can be explained by science?...hmm, I beg to differ..

And this is why I say we are being stunted by religion. Everything is explained by science, or can be. That's the very definition of science.

[WOWmagnet]

So everything can be explained by science?...hmm, I beg to differ..

:icon_roll x 666

Bad arguement. 600 years ago they thought that the plague was caused by spirits or curses :haha7:. Does that mean it would NEVER be proven it was germs?
Science will prove more things as it advances, unlike religion, which tries it's best to shoot down science and keep people in the dark. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." :haha7:


At least science takes a scientific approach with no bias. Scientific method is used to prove OR disprove their theories without a predetermined outcome in mind.

Creationists:haha7: say: "God created everything and we'll tell you why..."
...just like the 9/11 truthers.

In fact, there was a pretty good theory on how "truthers" act very much like religious zealots in the way they need to hold on to an improbable story and use ANY detail to try to prove it to justify their Harry Potter story.

[seeinred]

And this is why I say we are being stunted by religion. Everything is explained by science, or can be. That's the very definition of science.

I think that especially for certain people, where religion especially kicks in is where science hasn't explained something. I agree with you that it can explain everything, but I'm fairly certain that it hasn't done that just yet.

[WOWmagnet]

So the unverse was created in 7 days.....6,000 years ago? :haha7::haha7::haha7::haha7::haha7::haha7::haha7:

[BIV]

I think that especially for certain people, where religion especially kicks in is where science hasn't explained something. I agree with you that it can explain everything, but I'm fairly certain that it hasn't done that just yet.
Agreed 100%. But just because we can't explain it yet, doesn't mean we wont.

[BIV]

So the unverse was created in 7 days.....6,000 years ago? :haha7::haha7::haha7::haha7::haha7::haha7::haha7:: haha7:
Dude, leave. You're not helping.

[WOWmagnet]

Dude, leave. You're not helping.

I will not....at least 'till I have to go to work.

Religion not only stunts us, it's the cause of much of the killing on Earth at present, as it always has been.

[seeinred]

Agreed 100%. But just because we can't explain it yet, doesn't mean we wont.

Agreed 100% on that count as well.

[Three Hole Puncher]

Religion is for the weak minded and the ignorant.

Nice contribution, backed by concrete examples and evidence. :action-sm

Evidence...

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/0/0e/Black_earl_wiki.JPG

[BIV]

I will not....at least 'till I have to go to work.

Religion not only stunts us, it's the cause of much of the killing on Earth at present, as it always has been.

But somehow I'm betting "LOL U iz noob God iz teh Suxx0r" isn't adding anything to the debate.

[WOWmagnet]

But somehow I'm betting "LOL U iz noob God iz teh Suxx0r" isn't adding anything to the debate.

...but it's not not adding anything either....

Harry Potter story. /YimmY

[Three Hole Puncher]

The religious are the Black Earls of the world.

The atheist/agnostics are the Ron Benningtons.

'nuff said.

[WOWmagnet]

More fuel:

http://www.wackbag.com/showthread.php?p=2525887&posted=1#post2525887

[seeinred]

More fuel:

http://www.wackbag.com/showthread.php?p=2525887&posted=1#post2525887

And Stalin was an atheist. So what?

[WOWmagnet]

And Stalin was an atheist. So what?

So was Hitler, so what?

[BIV]

And Stalin was an atheist. So what?
I'm out of this thread. We can play more when the kids leave.

[seeinred]

I'm out of this thread. We can play more when the kids leave.

Sounds like a plan

[Sprite]

Logic 43, Religion 0.

:clap:

[Treat_Yourself]

Not one to bunk on either side of Faith or Science..What about the dead guy who came back to life after his family prayed over him recently?
What about all the scientific advances made from faith based cures..what about the studies that have shown that patients that are prayed for recover faster?
Faith is a powerful thing..

I haven't heard about some guy coming back to life due to prayer. What scientific advances have been made from faith based cures? Also the study that showed better results for patients who were prayed for was completely debunked. http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msciprayer.html

[Treat_Yourself]

So everything can be explained by science?...hmm, I beg to differ..

A lot can be explained by science. It's likely that as our technology progresses and we can observe more and measure more accurately we will be able to explain much more through science. Some things may never be explained. Still, saying "we don't know" seems more honest than assuming since science can't explain it then god did it since we can't really study god. Just my opinion. I personally don't care what peope believe as long as they don't force it on me.

[Six-Pack]

I guess god needed a diabetes patient.






Mr. Brimley was busy that day.

[Voss's Tumor]

No, it won't. I'm not hindering any of your lofty and majestic goals for humankind by my one simple belief.

Your leaders are.

I've read what you wrote, dude. I really did. I just tend to disregard the same arguments being thrown at me over and over again and isolate the unique items. If you could speak science you'd get what me and BIV are saying from the point of view we're saying it.

We're saying prove it. In science, you prove it, or it doesn't exist. We're saying if you combine sciences you can see -- very clearly -- how religion has been used to control people through fear since the beginning of man-kind. Science won, we proved it was carnies and rubes, and we're to the point where belief structures period are fucking up the world, and we now have nuclear warheads.

Stop it.

[WOWmagnet]

Your leaders are.

I've read what you wrote, dude. I really did. I just tend to disregard the same arguments being thrown at me over and over again and isolate the unique items. If you could speak science you'd get what me and BIV are saying from the point of view we're saying it.

We're saying prove it. In science, you prove it, or it doesn't exist. We're saying if you combine sciences you can see -- very clearly -- how religion has been used to control people through fear since the beginning of man-kind. Science won, we proved it was carnies and rubes, and we're to the point where belief structures period are fucking up the world, and we now have nuclear warheads.

Stop it.

OMG QFMFT :clap:

PROVE it. Or shut it.

[Three Hole Puncher]

So everything can be explained by science?...hmm, I beg to differ.. So... God/religion = everything that hasn't been explained by science?

In other words...

God/religion = Ignorance.

[MrBogey]

Science= natural world

Religion= supernatural world.

Religion tries to explain that which appears supernatural. But once something is studied and relegated to the natural world science nails it.

God/religion doesn't equal ignorance though people will use it to fill in their own ignorance of the natural world. Likewise, science doesn't equal knowledge. There's a lot of things science can not explain as of yet so there's a lot of "ignorance" in science. But science is an evolving rocess and eventually it'll move towards less ignorance.

But like I said, just because you reject God doesn't mean you're less ignorant or more enamored with the truth. It just means you believe in one less thing than those who do believe in God.

I have a faith in God and I'd venture that I'm just as bright as any atheist posting here.

[Voss's Tumor]

Science= natural world

Religion= supernatural world.

Religion tries to explain that which appears supernatural. But once something is studied and relegated to the natural world science nails it.

God/religion doesn't equal ignorance though people will use it to fill in their own ignorance of the natural world. Likewise, science doesn't equal knowledge. There's a lot of things science can not explain as of yet so there's a lot of "ignorance" in science. But science is an evolving rocess and eventually it'll move towards less ignorance.

But like I said, just because you reject God doesn't mean you're less ignorant or more enamored with the truth. It just means you believe in one less thing than those who do believe in God.

I have a faith in God and I'd venture that I'm just as bright as any atheist posting here.

If you're a religious guy, stop allowing your leaders to speak for you en masse. Stem cells and Evolution for starters. These are from my science, and they make some shit in your book look stupid. Sorry. Your job is to fill the void, so go change your story and fill the void, do your job. Stop trying to re-write my science book. That book's my job. The fairy tale, that one's your job.

Scientists are busy trying to figure out how to manipulate your minds so that you can evolve with the rest of us.

[MrBogey]

Blaming me, or any religious person, for creationism is like me blaming you, or any atheist, for eugenics or nazi/jap human expirimentation.

Not every religious person walks in lockstep with each other. I don't belong to a church that teaches any of the things you bitch about. Nor do I know of a church that is prohibiting stem cell research. Now I know of a few that have issues with certain kinds of stem cell research but I can't really blame them.

And quit pretending you're a scientist. I don't pretend I'm a prophet.

[WOWmagnet]

Blaming me, or any religious person, for creationism is like me blaming you, or any atheist, for eugenics or nazi/jap human expirimentation.

Not every religious person walks in lockstep with each other. I don't belong to a church that teaches any of the things you bitch about. Nor do I know of a church that is prohibiting stem cell research. Now I know of a few that have issues with certain kinds of stem cell research but I can't really blame them.

And quit pretending you're a scientist. I don't pretend I'm a prophet.

Hmmm. Churches CAN'T prohibit stem cell research but they CAN put enormous pressure on politicians to prohibit Federal funding for it through laws.

Same thing happens in the Islamic countries :icon_roll.

[MrBogey]

The gov't has never prohibited any type of stem cell reasearch and has always funded some form of stem cell research.

[MrBogey]

You see, the particulars are very important to the narrative. You create an interesting narrative that supports your views. Then you phrase things to support those views within that narrative.

Yet... you hate it when people apply it in a supernatural sense. Why? Do geese hate ganders now?

[WOWmagnet]

The gov't has never prohibited any type of stem cell reasearch and has always funded some form of stem cell research.

Are you seriously gonna state that NO Federal funding has been cut to almost nothing do to bible-thumpers?

Was it not pressure from the religious right that got it reduced?

If not then WHY was it cut?

[WOWmagnet]

You see, the particulars are very important to the narrative. You create an interesting narrative that supports your views. Then you phrase things to support those views within that narrative.

Yet... you hate it when people apply it in a supernatural sense. Why? Do geese hate ganders now?

'Cause supernatural can't be proved, at least not yet. Science either PROVES it or discards it.

Can ANY faith do the same?

[Three Hole Puncher]

Science= natural world

Religion= supernatural world.

Religion tries to explain that which appears supernatural. But once something is studied and relegated to the natural world science nails it.

God/religion doesn't equal ignorance though people will use it to fill in their own ignorance of the natural world. Likewise, science doesn't equal knowledge. There's a lot of things science can not explain as of yet so there's a lot of "ignorance" in science. But science is an evolving rocess and eventually it'll move towards less ignorance.

But like I said, just because you reject God doesn't mean you're less ignorant or more enamored with the truth. It just means you believe in one less thing than those who do believe in God.

I have a faith in God and I'd venture that I'm just as bright as any atheist posting here. It's a matter of degrees. How MUCH faith do you have in God?

-Enough that you'd reject a scientific discovery if it challenged your faith?

-Enough that you'd march into battle secure in the knowledge that God was on your side?

-Enough that you believe that you know the "correct" way to worship God?

Declaring faith in God can be cheaper than a single pull on a nickel slot. The question is... How much faith do you have riding on your bet?

[MrBogey]

Science discards nothing. You're misunderstanding the principles you are touting.

Science takes all relevant data then extrapolates facts from them. Religious people do the same with their texts as well. Theirs just deals with supernatural concerns. Where science deals with natural phenomena.

As to the stem cell debate. Religious people of all types (outside of the fringe Luddite types) have never had any problem with stem cell research. You're conflating two seperate issues. That being a single branch of research with a whole type of research. It's like me saying that you don't like women because you won't date fatties.

[WOWmagnet]

You see, the particulars are very important to the narrative. You create an interesting narrative that supports your views. Then you phrase things to support those views within that narrative.

Yet... you hate it when people apply it in a supernatural sense. Why? Do geese hate ganders now?

Again, science takes a theory and either PROVES it or disproves it, with experimentation and documentation...not to mention biochemical evidence, genetic evidence, fossil evidence, and quite a lot more. Creationism, however, does not.

[WOWmagnet]

Science discards nothing. You're misunderstanding the principles you are touting.

Science takes all relevant data then extrapolates facts from them. Religious people do the same with their texts as well. Theirs just deals with supernatural concerns. Where science deals with natural phenomena.

As to the stem cell debate. Religious people of all types (outside of the fringe Luddite types) have never had any problem with stem cell research. You're conflating two seperate issues. That being a single branch of research with a whole type of research. It's like me saying that you don't like women because you won't date fatties.

You failed to answer my last questions:

"Are you seriously gonna state that NO Federal funding has been cut to almost nothing do to bible-thumpers?

Was it not pressure from the religious right that got it reduced?

If not then WHY was it cut?"

So you're picking on fetal stem cells (how suprising). 'Cause that would make the whole country go to hell (which doesn't exist). :icon_roll

[MrBogey]

It's a matter of degrees. How MUCH faith do you have in God?

-Enough that you'd reject a scientific discovery if it challenged your faith?

-Enough that you'd march into battle secure in the knowledge that God was on your side?

-Enough that you believe that you know the "correct" way to worship God?

Declaring faith in God can be cheaper than a single pull on a nickel slot. The question is... How much faith do you have riding on your bet?

I have absolute faith that there exists a God. Do I believe that he is my Lord? Yes. Do I believe that affords me extra protection in the natural world? No.

God/Jesus, exists in the supernatural world and the natural world is a creation of theirs for our benefit. We are to grow and expand ourselves spiritually in this world so that when we die we have a place in their supernatural world. The two do not mix entirely.

That is "classical" Christianity. The new age way of worshipping God tends to bastardize the message into a lowest common denominator whereby little spiritual growth occurs. That is a problem. I don't praise God specifically when good things happen because I don't want to damn him or backpeddle when bad things occur. That's the whole "thy Will be done" part of the Bible that people inadvertantly fall back on when bad things happen to them. It shouldn't be a fallback option. It is the way all things through God work. But nothing God gives us is designed to destroy our souls. It at most is designed to test the resolve of it. He wants us to grow spiritually. Life or death is irrelevant to our spirituality.

If I got it wrong then it really doesn't matter. I am who I am because of the type of person I wish to be, made me thus. You can't fool God with false piety or rituals. He'll always be on the side that engenders us spiritually.

Again, science takes a theory and either PROVES it or disproves it, with experimentation and documentation...not to mention biochemical evidence, genetic evidence, fossil evidence, and quite a lot more. Creationism, however, does not.

I don't believe you're understanding what I'm arguing. Creationism is the attempt by some to replace the natural with the supernatural. It's not science. It's the antithesis of science. But it's not something religious people are guilty of wholesale.

Your argument seems to be that religious people are just ignorant people and needto be enlightened. That is wrong. Now if your argument is that some people are ignorant and need to be enlighted, religious andsecular alike, then it'd be a different story.

[MrBogey]

You failed to answer my last questions:

"Are you seriously gonna state that NO Federal funding has been cut to almost nothing do to bible-thumpers?

Was it not pressure from the religious right that got it reduced?

If not then WHY was it cut?"

So you're picking on fetal stem cells (how suprising). 'Cause that would make the whole country go to hell (which doesn't exist). :icon_roll

An as I said...religious groups didn't demand stem cell funding be cut. Just a specific avenue of research that had to do with ethics. Ya know people can petition the gov't to act ethically without it being a bad thing. It has been happening for over 200 years no and the Constitution specifically allows it... and for good reason.

And there's no need to throw out there that you don't believe in a Hell. I didn't think for a moment that you thought otherwise. Be a little more confident in your denial and cut back on the need to state it. I don't end every post about a sexy girl with "I'm straight" because I believe most people kind of get my whole heterosexuality without me constantly stating it.

And then again I don't believe in the Tom & Jerry version of Hell either.

[Three Hole Puncher]

I have absolute faith that there exists a God. Do I believe that he is my Lord? Yes. Do I believe that affords me extra protection in the natural world? No.

God/Jesus, exists in the supernatural world and the natural world is a creation of theirs for our benefit. We are to grow and expand ourselves spiritually in this world so that when we die we have a place in their supernatural world. The two do not mix entirely.

That is "classical" Christianity. The new age way of worshipping God tends to bastardize the message into a lowest common denominator whereby little spiritual growth occurs. That is a problem. I don't praise God specifically when good things happen because I don't want to damn him or backpeddle when bad things occur. That's the whole "thy Will be done" part of the Bible that people inadvertantly fall back on when bad things happen to them. It shouldn't be a fallback option. It is the way all things through God work. But nothing God gives us is designed to destroy our souls. It at most is designed to test the resolve of it. He wants us to grow spiritually. Life or death is irrelevant to our spirituality.

If I got it wrong then it really doesn't matter. I am who I am because of the type of person I wish to be, made me thus. You can't fool God with false piety or rituals. He'll always be on the side that engenders us spiritually.

Okay... here's my fairytale.

God is a sorta ginormous Michael Vick on a cosmic, universal scale. He created the world and put us on it so we would tear each other apart, and He could look down on us and get His LOLies. He's especially amused by the people who think He loves them or cares two shits about their "spiritual growth"... those people crack Him right the fuck up... He's like, "Look around you! Does it look like I care?! LOLLOL!"

Fuck Him... that's what I say. I refuse to fight or dance for His amusement. I live my life as I see fit. I do good for me and mine and my fellow man, and piss on God if He doesn't like it... go kill another kitten, ya sick bastard.

[Voss's Tumor]

Blaming me, or any religious person, for creationism is like me blaming you, or any atheist, for eugenics or nazi/jap human expirimentation.

Not every religious person walks in lockstep with each other. I don't belong to a church that teaches any of the things you bitch about. Nor do I know of a church that is prohibiting stem cell research. Now I know of a few that have issues with certain kinds of stem cell research but I can't really blame them.

Science doesn't polarize people like religion. If a man misinterprets science and manipulates Psychology to make a bunch of people do bad shit, we analyze how he was able to manipulate it and we come up with a way to stop it. Basically, we try to use science to *shock* fix that problem so it never exists again.

Religious people would pray. So as the quiet scientists are behind the scenes figuring shit out, the religious pray, and when the scientific strategies work out the problem, the religious go on TV and scream "God Saved Us Again!" and we shake our heads and move on.
And quit pretending you're a scientist. I don't pretend I'm a prophet.

I went to school and was a Nuclear Engineer with a specialist in mechanical and chemical engineering in the Navy. What would you label me? I mean, at some point as I was standing in a lab with radioactive fluids in my hands and a bunch of beakers and shit around me, I kind of thought I looked like a scientist.

[Chino Kapone]

:popcorn:

[Plunkies]

To get slightly back on topic...Here's a site I always liked.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

[Voss's Tumor]

To get slightly back on topic...Here's a site I always liked.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

I wanna go have some beers with that guy

[seeinred]

Your leaders are.

I've read what you wrote, dude. I really did. I just tend to disregard the same arguments being thrown at me over and over again and isolate the unique items. If you could speak science you'd get what me and BIV are saying from the point of view we're saying it.

We're saying prove it. In science, you prove it, or it doesn't exist. We're saying if you combine sciences you can see -- very clearly -- how religion has been used to control people through fear since the beginning of man-kind. Science won, we proved it was carnies and rubes, and we're to the point where belief structures period are fucking up the world, and we now have nuclear warheads.

Stop it.

Bogey nailed it. We're not even having a discussion about the same thing anymore, since every time we seem to agree on something, you just take it a step further and try to make it more and more inflammatory. I stepped in yesterday because I thought we could have a civil discussion on religion, but you've shown you're incapable of that. You're just preaching now. I've got to say though, I do love how you make it seem like everyone who's not a Christian is doing God's work, as it were and for lack of a better cliche, and everyone who is a Christian does nothing but fuck up all you geniuses with our Bible-thumping. You are certainly good at framing an argument, and I'll give you credit for that.

[insert dramatic final line here]

[Voss's Tumor]

Bogey nailed it. We're not even having a discussion about the same thing anymore, since every time we seem to agree on something, you just take it a step further and try to make it more and more inflammatory. I stepped in yesterday because I thought we could have a civil discussion on religion, but you've shown you're incapable of that. You're just preaching now. I've got to say though, I do love how you make it seem like everyone who's not a Christian is doing God's work, as it were and for lack of a better cliche, and everyone who is a Christian does nothing but fuck up all you geniuses with our Bible-thumping. You are certainly good at framing an argument, and I'll give you credit for that.

[insert dramatic final line here]

I can see and touch and observe my side of this argument.

You feel and think and learned yours from a magical book that's been passed down for 2,000 years.

I'm sorry if I'm a little insulted by the source of your information.

[Plunkies]

Bogey nailed it. We're not even having a discussion about the same thing anymore, since every time we seem to agree on something, you just take it a step further and try to make it more and more inflammatory. I stepped in yesterday because I thought we could have a civil discussion on religion, but you've shown you're incapable of that. You're just preaching now. I've got to say though, I do love how you make it seem like everyone who's not a Christian is doing God's work, as it were and for lack of a better cliche, and everyone who is a Christian does nothing but fuck up all you geniuses with our Bible-thumping. You are certainly good at framing an argument, and I'll give you credit for that.

[insert dramatic final line here]

You trolled for this argument. I don't agree with Voss' approach either but you asked for this shit. You got it. Don't act surprised now.

[Voss's Tumor]

And to specifically address the point of you think I'm saying all Christians are worthless, I'm really not saying that at all. All I'm saying is that little part of their brain that needs Christianity to function is pandering to the weakness of their fear that there may be no after life. Sorry, there might not be. He/She might be a great guy/gal, but that particular trait about them is a sign of weakness to me, since where I go, "Hey, I'm gonna try to figure that out", They're going to listen to a dude in a suit who's asking them for money tell them about a magical ghost in the sky who's gonna make it all okay.

In my field, if I stopped looking for answers because I was scared of what I'd find I'd be called weak, and I would be.

If you need religion to make you feel good, then you need it. I don't. You're not enlightened, neither am I.

Don't try to spread your disease, I won't try to fight it's spread.

Sorry dude, I'm an Engineer/Science minded dude who grew up in the Bible Belt. I've gotten really good at theocratic debate.

[seeinred]

I can see and touch and observe my side of this argument.

You feel and think and learned yours from a magical book that's been passed down for 2,000 years.

I'm sorry if I'm a little insulted by the source of your information.

You refuse to acknowledge what I've been saying. THAT I BELIEVE IN SCIENCE.

Therefore your side and my side are the same, except for one tiny little addition on my side. Not once have I argued anything against scientific beliefs here. I just don't get how I'm not allowed to speak for myself or have my own idea, how I must think like religious leaders do, whereas you're allowed to have all the ideas you want for the simple fact that there are no atheist leaders.

Like I said, we're not even arguing the same thing any more. I've made my point, you refuse to acknowledge it, and continue with the Christian-bashing. Which, by the way, I said I agree with in some cases. So in my mind, what it comes down to is that it scares you or bothers you that a Christian man can believe in science. I have no other explanation for why you refuse to accept that simple fact.

[Plunkies]

I've gotten really good at theocratic debate.

You're not debating him. You're venting on him like he, himself, is all of religion. There is no argument here, or if there was you decided to skip it 3 pages ago.

[seeinred]

You trolled for this argument. I don't agree with Voss' approach either but you asked for this shit. You got it. Don't act surprised now.

I didn't troll for it, but you're right in that I did want to exercise the ol' brain muscle and try to have a civil discussion on religion. BIV and I managed to do that pretty well.

You're not debating him. You're venting on him like he, himself, is all of religion. There is no argument here, or if there was you decided to skip it 3 pages ago.
Thank you, at least now I know I'm not crazy (for that reason anyway).

[Voss's Tumor]

You're not debating him. You're venting on him like he, himself, is all of religion. There is no argument here, or if there was you decided to skip it 3 pages ago.

I'm really not, I know it comes across that way, but what I'm intending to do is isolate my argument to that one little Christian part of his brain where things like "Have faith and spread the word of god" somehow translate to pushing his will upon people who reject his ideas.

You can believe in science, that's fine. But honestly, it's really fucking easy to believe in science, because hey, it's right. If you don't want to study my particular brand of science, I'm cool with that, because scientists keep themselves in check by arguing. Christians allow each other to get away with stupidity in the nature of brotherly love, and that allows people to be intellectually lazy, and accepted.

[Voss's Tumor]

Like I said, we're not even arguing the same thing any more. I've made my point, you refuse to acknowledge it, and continue with the Christian-bashing. Which, by the way, I said I agree with in some cases. So in my mind, what it comes down to is that it scares you or bothers you that a Christian man can believe in science. I have no other explanation for why you refuse to accept that simple fact.

Actually, what scares me is that someone who believes a magical ghost has his back can be acknowledged as an intelligent human being without acknowledging that his desire for religion is based on fear, nothing more. Science and Evolution have proven this pretty definitively, yet a religious man will pick and choose which he's willing to believe on either side regardless of proof.

Again, this isn't directly driven at you, just that one little area of your brain that thinks the magical ghost exists.

[seeinred]

I'm really not, I know it comes across that way, but what I'm intending to do is isolate my argument to that one little Christian part of his brain where things like "Have faith and spread the word of god" somehow translate to pushing his will upon people who reject his ideas.

You can believe in science, that's fine. But honestly, it's really fucking easy to believe in science, because hey, it's right. If you don't want to study my particular brand of science, I'm cool with that, because scientists keep themselves in check by arguing. Christians allow each other to get away with stupidity in the nature of brotherly love, and that allows people to be intellectually lazy, and accepted.

This comes back to what I said earlier. I'm not saying "Look at me, I'm awesome, I believe in science! Give me a cookie." I'm just pointing out that a person can believe in God and science.

And quit saying part of MY brain. I have faith, sure, but I haven't spread shit in here or pushed my will upon anybody.

[seeinred]

Actually, what scares me is that someone who believes a magical ghost has his back can be acknowledged as an intelligent human being without acknowledging that his desire for religion is based on fear, nothing more. Science and Evolution have proven this pretty definitively, yet a religious man will pick and choose which he's willing to believe on either side regardless of proof.

Again, this isn't directly driven at you, just that one little area of your brain that thinks the magical ghost exists.

Why does it have to be based on fear? I don't know what it's based on. It's just there. It's just what I believe. I don't need to have a reason to believe anything. It doesn't make me unintelligent to believe something that has been neither proved nor disproved. You can call that belief stupid all you want, I can handle it, but don't call me, as a person, stupid for it.

[Voss's Tumor]

I don't see how you guys can condemn religion as a whole for stupid shit like this. There are some retarded fucking people out there who believe in God, but I'm sure there are just as many retarded fucking people who don't.

That was a passive aggressive "God is right" statement. That statement trolled this whole argument.

I'm telling you, if you're a religious person you inherently piss people off with stuff like this, but you don't even see it because you have this inner peace of being right.

Science is science. We have systems in place to keep the crazy scientists from declaring untruths to the public. Religion allows anyone to say anything in the name of faith and a lot of people get the wrong idea.

Religion does more bad for humans than it does good, that's what I believe. So just like if you had passively strolled by a barber shop in Harlem and stuck your head in and called them *******, you dropped the passive holy grenade and you're now trying to play victim.

If I believe something, I defend my beliefs. If a religious person does, he relies on an argument of "You gotta have faith". I reject that tactic completely.

[Voss's Tumor]

Why does it have to be based on fear? I don't know what it's based on. It's just there. It's just what I believe. I don't need to have a reason to believe anything. It doesn't make me unintelligent to believe something that has been neither proved nor disproved. You can call that belief stupid all you want, I can handle it, but don't call me, as a person, stupid for it.

ALL religious beliefs since the beginning of our existence have been based on trying to solve the world around us. Apollo pulled the sun across the sky, Loki was the causer of mischief in the minds of humans, Jesus loves you when no one else does, Jihad if the infidels don't believe us, don't use birth control so you can breed more followers, etc.

It's all fairy tales to perpetuate a species' survival and understanding. Scared people are less productive than secure people, and people who know they're gonna die are scared. People who can't acknowledge they might not go to a happy, puffy clouded afterlife/get 72 virgins/get their own planet to be god of and turn to an obviously flawed set of stories to make themselves feel better are weak to me. In any form.

[seeinred]

That was a passive aggressive "God is right" statement. That statement trolled this whole argument.

I'm telling you, if you're a religious person you inherently piss people off with stuff like this, but you don't even see it because you have this inner peace of being right.

Science is science. We have systems in place to keep the crazy scientists from declaring untruths to the public. Religion allows anyone to say anything in the name of faith and a lot of people get the wrong idea.

Religion does more bad for humans than it does good, that's what I believe. So just like if you had passively strolled by a barber shop in Harlem and stuck your head in and called them *******, you dropped the passive holy grenade and you're now trying to play victim.

If I believe something, I defend my beliefs. If a religious person does, he relies on an argument of "You gotta have faith". I reject that tactic completely.

No, you're just wrong. There was nothing passive aggressive about that statement. It meant what the words there said. It meant that a person is capable of doing shit whether or not they believe in God. That is all it meant.

Not once in this thread have I said "You gotta have faith" or anything along those lines. I've said that a person can either believe in God or not believe in God, and not have it affect his views on the world.

Like I said, you're quite clearly disillusioned on religion, and you're taking it out on me. I have no problem with that. I'm only 20 years old, so maybe one day I'll see some magical truth like you do, but right now I see no reason why I can't believe in God and accept scientific theories at the same time.

[seeinred]

ALL religious beliefs since the beginning of our existence have been based on trying to solve the world around us. Apollo pulled the sun across the sky, Loki was the causer of mischief in the minds of humans, Jesus loves you when no one else does, Jihad if the infidels don't believe us, don't use birth control so you can breed more followers, etc.

It's all fairy tales to perpetuate a species' survival and understanding. Scared people are less productive than secure people, and people who know they're gonna die are scared. People who can't acknowledge they might not go to a happy, puffy clouded afterlife/get 72 virgins/get their own planet to be god of and turn to an obviously flawed set of stories to make themselves feel better are weak to me. In any form.

Ok, so anything that's used to solve the world around is for the weak-minded? Except science? That's mighty convenient. This all comes back to your disillusionment. You just refuse to accept the fact that maybe I'm not scared of death. Maybe I don't need religion. Maybe I feel fine without it. There's something else here that won't allow you to accept this.

[Voss's Tumor]

No, you're just wrong. There was nothing passive aggressive about that statement. It meant what the words there said. It meant that a person is capable of doing shit whether or not they believe in God. That is all it meant.

Not once in this thread have I said "You gotta have faith" or anything along those lines. I've said that a person can either believe in God or not believe in God, and not have it affect his views on the world.

Like I said, you're quite clearly disillusioned on religion, and you're taking it out on me. I have no problem with that. I'm only 20 years old, so maybe one day I'll see some magical truth like you do, but right now I see no reason why I can't believe in God and accept scientific theories at the same time.

Wow, I didn't know you were so young dude. I truly am sorry, you argue like someone a lot older, heh.

What you said was passive aggressive. I know you don't think it was, but it was. Get married, you'll learn to see it... It's almost like when Neo could see the Matrix around him. Everyone was telling you you started it, and that's why they were saying it, heh.

If you dig deep enough into scientific study, you will have your religious inclinations wrecked at some point. That's just the way it works for most people. Once that happens, when you see someone do the passive aggressive god is right thing, you recognize it right off the bat.

[seeinred]

Wow, I didn't know you were so young dude. I truly am sorry, you argue like someone a lot older, heh.

What you said was passive aggressive. I know you don't think it was, but it was. Get married, you'll learn to see it... It's almost like when Neo could see the Matrix around him. Everyone was telling you you started it, and that's why they were saying it, heh.

If you dig deep enough into scientific study, you will have your religious inclinations wrecked at some point. That's just the way it works for most people. Once that happens, when you see someone do the passive aggressive god is right thing, you recognize it right off the bat.

Haha it wasn't my intention to get you to feel bad or take it easy on me. I really just meant to say that I likely don't have the experiences you do.

I will be involved in science in some form for my career, and I'm sure that my belief in God will be shaken/tested/wrecked/whatever at some point. I just wonder how famous scientists like Einsten and Kelvin could have been Christians and made such incredible advances in their fields. I understand Einstein wasn't a Christian in the "normal" sense, but I like to think I'm not either. I really don't fit with any one specific denomination anymore.

[Three Hole Puncher]

To get slightly back on topic...Here's a site I always liked.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Good stuff...

Reminds me of a book I once read. A guy goes to Lourdes, France... site of many supposed miraculous healings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes

The guy is taken to see "the crutch room"... a room filled with hundreds of discarded crutches, canes, walkers, leg braces, etc... left by people who were supposedly miraculously cured and didn't need them anymore. The guy takes a long look around the room and says, "What? No wooden legs?" :D

[Voss's Tumor]

Ok, so anything that's used to solve the world around is for the weak-minded? Except science? That's mighty convenient. This all comes back to your disillusionment. You just refuse to accept the fact that maybe I'm not scared of death. Maybe I don't need religion. Maybe I feel fine without it. There's something else here that won't allow you to accept this.

There's something weak minded about using fairy tales to explain the world to include the minds of your fellow people, yes, I think that's a true statement.

And honestly, yes, considering EVERYTHING in the world that's not religious is by definition a form of science, yes, all mighty science is what explains the world, religion is this mythical concept that just needs to go away if you ask me.