Hezbollah Gives Coffins to Israel in Prisoner Swap

[Vyce]

Hezbollah Gives Coffins to Israel in Prisoner Swap

By Griff Witte and Alia Ibrahim
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, July 16, 2008; 11:39 AM



KIRYAT MOTZKIN, Israel, July 16 -- Israel and the Shiite militia Hezbollah on Wednesday began an extraordinary exchange, with two coffins containing the bodies of abducted Israeli soldiers swapped for five Lebanese prisoners, including a convicted murderer.

After receiving the coffins, Israeli officials positively identified the bodies as those of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, who were abducted by Hezbollah almost two years ago to the day in a dramatic cross-border raid that sparked a month-long war.

Several hours later, Samir Kuntar, who was responsible for the deaths of four Israelis in 1979, crossed into Lebanon along with four fighters captured during the 2006 conflict with Lebanon.

Even before the identification of the Israeli bodies was confirmed, the country went into mourning, with friends and neighbors of the soldiers gathering to light candles of remembrance, radio stations playing sad songs and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert preparing to travel to an army base to express condolences to the families.

Although Israeli officials had said weeks ago that the soldiers were almost certainly dead -- and that fate had long been feared -- televised images of the coffins crossing the border were still greeted by wails of grief just before 10 a.m. when they were shown here, in Regev's hometown.

"This is a family that has been swinging between hope and despair. Now they're in despair, and it's understandable," said Chaim Tzuri, the mayor, after emerging from the family's apartment. "All of Israel mourns with them."

The reaction on the Lebanese side was far different, with Hezbollah extending a red-carpet welcome for Kuntar and the four others. The release of Kuntar, whose victims included a father and his two daughters, has been controversial in Israel.

Hours before the prisoners' expected released, an elaborate welcoming ceremony was already getting underway in the border town of Naqoura.

Hezbollah fighters on horseback were poised to celebrate the arrival of Kuntar and the four others, collectively referred to in Lebanon as "hostages."

Banners tried to draw the contrast, with a picture of Olmert depicted with his hand on his forehead and the caption "humiliation guaranteed."

"Lebanon is shedding tears of joy," stated one banner. The exchange has even been given a name -- "Operation Radwan" -- in honor of Hezbollah fighter Imad Mugniyah, a shadowy figure linked to several major terrorist attacks who was killed earlier this year in Syria.

Along with members of Hezbollah, many Palestinians also gathered in Naqoura, hoping to determine if missing loved ones are among 199 bodies of Lebanese and Palestinian fighters scheduled to be returned on Wednesday by Israel. Killed during various conflicts over the past several decades, the bodies had been buried in Israel.

The first group of bodies began arriving in Naqoura about 3:30 p.m. local time on a flatbed truck, the coffins d***** with Lebanese and Hezbollah flags. Drummers preceded the procession, and Hezbollah soldiers stood at attention atop the vehicles. Kuntar and the others crossed the border about an hour later, heading for the village.

An even larger rally is scheduled in Beirut for later in the day, expected to include Lebanon's top public officials.

Hamas, the radical Islamist movement that controls the Gaza Strip, celebrated the exchange as well and said it had been encouraged to "capture Zionist soldiers, in order to swap them with our sons in prison." Already, Hamas has one Israeli soldier in custody, Gilad Shalit. He is believed to be alive, and Israel has been trying to win his release as part of Egyptian-mediated cease-fire talks.

The release of Goldwasser's and Regev's bodies will close a painful chapter in Israel's history. The Hezbollah raid in which they were captured prompted an Israeli bombardment of southern Lebanon and Beirut. Hezbollah replied with rocket barrages aimed at northern Israel.

More than 1,000 Lebanese and 159 Israelis were killed in the 34-day conflict.

Even as the exchange closed one wound, however, it reopened another. Kuntar's attack in 1979 resulted in the deaths of a police officer and three members of an Israeli family -- a father and his two daughters. The man's mother and brother had strongly opposed the deal, and had personally lobbied Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and President Shimon Peres to call it off.

"I feel that this is a victory for terror," said Ron Keren, whose brother, Danny Haran, died in Kuntar's attack. "We all know that this story is not over, and we will hear from him more in the future."

The mother, 82-year-old Nina Keren, said the release of Kuntar made it feel like "it all happened yesterday. I can't understand how my government could make such a deal." Standing in her living room and pointing to pictures of the son and two granddaughters she lost in Kuntar's attack, she said she was also having trouble understanding how Lebanon could be planning such a rapturous welcome: "He's a hero? Because he killed a four-year-old? Because he smashed her head with his rifle?"

But she said she is having no trouble understanding the position of the Regev and Goldwasser families, who waged a very public campaign to have the soldiers brought home, no matter their condition. Both families were secluded in their homes Wednesday, mourning privately.

Outside the Regev family home, in a working class area of this northern Israel town, dozens of friends and neighbors placed small candles beneath a poster of the fallen soldier. On the poster was a printed message: "Our sons will return to their homeland. Eldad, we do not forget and we are waiting for the day you return home."

After Hezbollah presented Regev's casket, neighbors added a second note: "We will have you in our hearts forever."

Even here, however, there was far from unanimous agreement that the deal had been a good idea. Shalom Millo, owner of a hardware store directly beneath the Regev home, said Olmert had blundered badly by giving up such a notorious murderer in exchange for two dead men.

"If they didn't have a sign of life [from Regev or Goldwasser], Olmert shouldn't have done the swap," said Millo angrily pounding his fist on the counter. "You don't trade bodies for live prisoners."

But Ronit Frid, another neighbor, said the deal had been necessary, if painful, because until Wednesday, the families of Regev and Goldwasser had not known for sure what became of the two men.

"Not knowing is the worst situation to be in," she said. "By knowing, it hurts, but maybe it gives you some power to move on."

Ibrahim reported from Lebanon.



The BBC spoke with some Israelis to get their reaction to this, and the best line came from an Israeli doctor / reservist:

"On the whole, I think the deal was right. If you look at past deals, this is pretty much OK because we only gave five live terrorists away. In the past, we've released hundreds."

IMO, another failure of the Olmert administration. This does nothing but guarantee the Lebanese WILL try and capture more Israelis in order to use as barter for more of their terrorist filth.

Hezbollah, embracing a child murderer as a hero, and giving bodies of the soldiers you killed in return. Fucking burn the savages into oblivion.

[DoucheMeister]

So 5 live terrorist are equal in value to 2 dead Israeli's.

Sounds about right.

[chiapeteater]

And Israel hasn't turned Lebanon (and all the other nations of fucking savages) into a glass parking lot because why??.....

[mendozathejew]

the mistake Israel made was not putting a bullet in this piece of shits brain after he bashed a 4 year old girls skull with his rifle.

[mendozathejew]

And Israel hasn't turned Lebanon (and all the other nations of fucking savages) into a glass parking lot because why??.....

because when the turned neighborhoods (from which thousands of rockets were being fired at Israeli homes, ironically many of them Arab Israeli homes )into rubble a couple summers ago, the world predictably cried foul.

What Gene Simmons said on the show about Israel not caring about world opinion isnt exactly correct. They care less than most, but the double standard against them definitely has its effect on what they can and cant do.

gotta love the APs original piece on this today. they described this Kuntar as "perceived by many here as having committed a monstrous attack." apparently only in Israel would they perceive a man killing a 4 year girl by beating her head in with his rifle as monstrous. I guess they wanted to acknowledge that its simply subjective.

somehow I cant see them having reported on the murder of James Byrd as being perceived in some circles as a vicious murder. just a feeling I have.

[Swamp CAve]

because when the turned neighborhoods (from which thousands of rockets were being fired at Israeli homes, ironically many of them Arab Israeli homes )into rubble a couple summers ago, the world predictably cried foul.

What Gene Simmons said on the show about Israel not caring about world opinion isnt exactly correct. They care less than most, but the double standard against them definitely has its effect on what they can and cant do.

gotta love the APs original piece on this today. they described this Kuntar as "perceived by many here as having committed a monstrous attack." apparently only in Israel would they perceive a man killing a 4 year girl by beating her head in with his rifle as monstrous. I guess they wanted to acknowledge that its simply subjective.

somehow I cant see them having reported on the murder of James Byrd as being perceived in some circles as a vicious murder. just a feeling I have.

Didn't the girl's mother accidentally smother her other child when they were hiding from this savage?

Hamas, the radical Islamist movement that controls the Gaza Strip, celebrated the exchange as well and said it had been encouraged to "capture Zionist soldiers, in order to swap them with our sons in prison."


This sets a nice precedent.

[mendozathejew]

Didn't the girl's mother accidentally smother her other child when they were hiding from this savage?

This sets a nice precedent.

true. and yeah it sets a precedent. But this is also the same government that managed to eliminate Hezbollah's operational mastermind behind enemy lines earlier this year.


nice to see someone still has balls in Israel though
MK Yisrael Hasson (Israel Beiteinu), who was also a former Shin Bet assistant director, told Jerusalem Radio: "When a Hizbullah representative refuses to say whether they're alive or dead a second before they take out the coffins, this is cruel entertainment. They will pay the price.

"None of them will be absolved. Whoever bathed in Jewish blood, whoever attacked the honor and independence of the State of Israel, will not be able to tell their grandchildren anything, because they will never get to that stage.

"I have no doubt that Nasrallah will not die a natural death. The State of Israel will settle its accounts with him. He knows that better than we do," Hasson said.

[DonTheTrucker]

Expect the same sort of nonsense in Iraq if Mr. Hussein Obama gets elected.

[WoodenPlank]

Glass fucking parking lot.

[Treat_Yourself]

Just shows Israel is getting weak under Olmert. Should have bombed the fucking welcome home celebrations for the terrorists.

[Death Metal Moe]

Umm did anyone also know that Israel gave back hundreds of bodies of Lebanese and Palistinian fighters too

bbc link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7509368.stm)

Both sides have killed plenty, let's not act like one side is innocent and one side are moneky banging rocks against a wall. They both have blood on their hands.

[MrBogey]

Umm did anyone also know that Israel gave back hundreds of bodies of Lebanese and Palistinian fighters too

bbc link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7509368.stm)

Both sides have killed plenty, let's not act like one side is innocent and one side are moneky banging rocks against a wall. They both have blood on their hands.

So how many living Israelis did Hezbollah give back?

One side IS the equivalent of monkeys banging on a rock. It'd be like saying Al-Qaeda and the US have both killed plenty so they're both morally equivalent.

[Death Metal Moe]

So how many living Israelis did Hezbollah give back?

One side IS the equivalent of monkeys banging on a rock. It'd be like saying Al-Qaeda and the US have both killed plenty so they're both morally equivalent.


Not trying to draw an equivalency, just want to make sure no one paints one side as living fucking saints that have done nothing wrong. Because that's bullshit.

[mendozathejew]

Both sides have killed plenty,

yes. one side does it in self defense. the other intentionally aims at civilians.

[WoodenPlank]

Personally, if I had been in the Israeli's position, I would have positioned a few sniper within range of the exchange, and done it outside. If they didnt know if the Israeli soldiers were alive or dead, they should have had some insurance in place in case they only got back bodies.
If the Israelis got only bodies, thats what Hezbollah should have gotten - fresh ones.

[Death Metal Moe]

yes. one side does it in self defense. the other intentionally aims at civilians.

Oh of course, Israel has never been the aggresor in ANY of the clashes with their neighbors, have they?

[mendozathejew]

Oh of course, Israel has never been the aggresor in ANY of the clashes with their neighbors, have they?

certainly not in any of the major clashes. you could argue they started the 67 war, but few people - even Israel's critics lay the blame on them as Egypt and Syria were literally on their backs ready to attack and having already cut them off from the Suez.

that 'both sides have done a lot' is just some easy, feel good, middle of the road empty rhetoric people throw at the issue when they dont know much about the conflict or dont care to.

nice article by an Arab gentleman.
A Reality Check as Israel Turns 60
Fouad Ajami

Of all that has been said and written by Arabs about their encounter with Zionism and Israel, nothing I have seen approximates the truth and poignancy of what a distinguished Moroccan historian, Abdallah Laroui, has written: "On a certain day everything would be obliterated and instantaneously reconstructed and the new inhabitants would leave, as if by magic, the land they had despoiled; in this way will justice be dispensed to the victims, on that day when the presence of God shall again make itself felt."

The Arab imagination could never reconcile itself to the permanence of the Jewish state. No victories could secure this state the acceptance of its neighbors. It was a fluke of history, they believed, and history itself provided the means of evasion, a way of stubbornly refusing to accept the verdict of what happened in 1948. Modern-day Arabs took to the history of the Crusader Kingdom that had risen in the Levant, lasted for two centuries (1099- 1291), then pulled up stakes and left on the soil its castles and bridges and ruins. This, too, shall pass, it was believed, and the weight of demography and the brutal geographical facts shall prevail.

In its short history, Israel has held up a mirror for the Arabs, who have not liked what they have seen. In the first Arab-Israeli war, in 1948, the paramilitary and volunteers of the new state turned back Arab armies. Although outgunned and outnumbered, the Jews prevailed. There was the embarrassment of the numbers. The population of the new state was a mere 650,000, while that of the surrounding Arab states was approximately 40 million. No Arabs had been prepared for what had unfolded: The war was thought to be a routine endeavor, the defeat of the Jewish state preordained. There were men of public affairs in these Arab states who knew better, but they hadn't had the courage to tell the truth to the unsuspecting crowd.

When the dust of battle settled, the Arabs could see the harvest of their history. The Palestinian upper classes had abandoned their towns, left the destitute and the peasantry to their fate. In their fantasy, the Arabs were a martial people, while the Jews they had known in Baghdad and Cairo and Damascus had been timid souls keen to avoid the dangers of politics and the envy of the crowd. These were different Jews, the Zionists, steeled by the horror of the Holocaust, who would hold their own in the field of battle.

In the succeeding decades, the prophecies of calamity for this Jewish state would not materialize. On a barren, small piece of land, the Zionists built a durable state. It was military but not militaristic. It took in waves of refugees and refashioned them into citizens. It had room for faith but remained a secular enterprise. Under conditions of a long siege, it maintained a deep and abiding democratic ethos. The Arabs could have learned from this experiment, but they drew back in horror. The Arab militaries and the demagogues stepped forth and claimed that they would win the war lost by the old order. But they would fare no better.

Arab perfidy. In their utterances, the Arabs were bound by a code of brotherhood, and the "restoration" of Palestinian rights was the creed of their political world. But in the mirror, Arabs could see their fratricide, the chasm between what they said and what they did. The rulers who professed fidelity to Palestine helped themselves to the fragments of Palestine unclaimed by the Zionists. The Arabs who bemoaned the loss of Palestine were in truth made uneasy by the Palestinian refugees. It would have been the humane thing to tell the refugees that huge historical verdicts are never overturned. But it was safer to offer a steady diet of evasion and escapism.

Israel's 60th anniversary suggests what might have been. In those days of battle, when history was fluid, partition of Palestine was the way out—a Jewish state and an Arab state, side by side. The Zionists opted for moderation and rescue; they would take a state, said their legendary leader Chaim Weizmann, even if it were the size of a tablecloth. The Palestinians held out for the whole thing. This month's festivities marking the return of the Jews to the world of nations should be an occasion for some honest Palestinian (and Arab) retrospect on how Arab history has played out in the intervening decades.

[Goober]

Oh of course, Israel has never been the aggresor in ANY of the clashes with their neighbors, have they?


That is debatable, but only to the extent that it is a preemptive strike. They don't fire random rockets at their neighbors or blow up their buses.

[striker]

The BBC spoke with some Israelis to get their reaction to this, and the best line came from an Israeli doctor / reservist:

"On the whole, I think the deal was right. If you look at past deals, this is pretty much OK because we only gave five live terrorists away. In the past, we've released hundreds."

IMO, another failure of the Olmert administration. This does nothing but guarantee the Lebanese WILL try and capture more Israelis in order to use as barter for more of their terrorist filth.

You do realize there is a big difference between the average Lebanese and Hezbollah or Hama? Or are you so stupid as to equate them as all equal?


And Israel hasn't turned Lebanon (and all the other nations of fucking savages) into a glass parking lot because why??.....

hmmm, maybe because if they attack Lebanon with provocation, and I mean the entire nation of Lebanon, the world will turn on them, and turn a blind eye to anything that happens to Israel. You cannot equate all of Lebanon with the act of two groups. For the record, the people of Lebanon, and the Lebanese gov't under Rafik Hariri were major US allies, and garned millions of dollars in US support for the rebuilding of Lebanon. Even now, Beirut is again becomming the Paris of the Med., something that for nearly 20 yrs it was a dying city.

BTW, how do you define a savage, anyone who isn't white, christian or jewish?

yes. one side does it in self defense. the other intentionally aims at civilians.

both sides intentionally aim at civilians, there are no innocents. If your statements were true, then Israel would never had launched helicopter attacks on downtown Beirut in '06.

Oh of course, Israel has never been the aggresor in ANY of the clashes with their neighbors, have they?

shhh, now your pissing of the jew lover

certainly not in any of the major clashes. you could argue they started the 67 war, but few people - even Israel's critics lay the blame on them as Egypt and Syria were literally on their backs ready to attack and having already cut them off from the Suez.

that 'both sides have done a lot' is just some easy, feel good, middle of the road empty rhetoric people throw at the issue when they dont know much about the conflict or dont care to.

Israel still does not respond to international critcism, even when wrong, they put the blame on everyone else. We get it Mendoza, your the bag man for Israel. Look I regularly defend Arabs, Muslims (they are not one in the same), and the middle East. But I have also admitted at times when they are in the wrong, all the posts I see from you are pro-Israel, and Israel does nothing wrong.

[striker]

That is debatable, but only to the extent that it is a preemptive strike. They don't fire random rockets at their neighbors or blow up their buses.

within reason you are correct, but as I stated above, during the '06 conflict, far more innocent Lebanese, far more than innocent Israelies, were killed by helicopter strikes in downtown Beirut. Yes, I realize that some of that is the fault of Hezbollah and Hamas placing their facilities in these areas, but Israel could have been more surgical in their attacks.

[mendozathejew]

both sides intentionally aim at civilians, there are no innocents. If your statements were true, then Israel would never had launched helicopter attacks on downtown Beirut in '06.

yes. Israel aims at civilians when its enemy hides behind civilians while firing at them and their unarmed citizens. in the 2nd lebanon war they were firing rockets from inside apartment complexes.

most of those rockets, by the way, were landing on Arab Israeli homes.

[MrBogey]

both sides intentionally aim at civilians

Yea, just like how the Us intentionally kills citizens like Al Zarqawi and bin Laden.

I like how your last post has you acknowledging that there was a good military reason but those fucking kikes just had to not use special forces snipers with .22s and tasers to take down militants.

[mendozathejew]

You do realize there is a big difference between the average Lebanese and Hezbollah or Hama? Or are you so stupid as to equate them as all equal?

bit hard to make that argument today. It wasnt just Hezbollah that celebrated Kuntars arrival, President Michel Suleiman was there as well.

unfortunately, this is the path the arab world has taken: celebrate the jew killers, the american killers, then get angry at the consequences.

[Schmed]

Israel needs someone like Golda Meir back, this Olmert character is not doing good for that nation. Israel should've delivered this guy back in a box.

The fucking Associated Press and Reuters are Nazis and anti-Semites, constantly portraying the Palestinians as the victims. Every headline in every newspaper always reads "IDF Kills.." when Israel defends/responds against these animals killing their citizens.

When was the last time an IDF soldier held up a child as a shield ?

I think the below pic explains a lot, so lets stop it with the Arab victimization crap.

http://israelsmessiah.com/maps/images/arabs_vs_israel.jpg

[Cunta Kinte]

Israel has the blood of 34 American sailors on it's hands, in short fuck Israel, let the savages have it.:action-sm

T-minus five minutes before the Jews start making excuses..

scroll scroll scroll, blind cc blind cc

[Vyce]

Hey, your first post and already it's full of hatred and anti-semitism. Good show.

And by that, I mean, "fuck off, maybe this board isn't for you."

[Cunta Kinte]

Hey, your first post and already it's full of hatred and anti-semitism. Good show.

And by that, I mean, "fuck off, maybe this board isn't for you."

Its not for me because three guys try to push the Jewish agenda in every single thread? And when its not about Israel its about bashing Democrats, blacks and Muslims.

In short, get fucked.

Any other nation in the world bombs a US ship, kills 34 and injures hundreds and it would be WW3. Israel does it and we scoff it off because we wouldn't want to come of as Anti-Semites.

[Schmed]

Its not for me because three guys try to push the Jewish agenda in every single thread? And when its not about Israel its about bashing Democrats, blacks and Muslims.

In short, get fucked.

Any other nation in the world bombs a US ship, kills 34 and injures hundreds and it would be WW3. Israel does it and we scoff it off because we wouldn't want to come of as Anti-Semites.


Really, we declared war on Yemen for blowing up the Cole ? That fucking pussy Clinton wouldn't even let those sailors have a loaded .50 cal on the fucking boat.

[Cunta Kinte]

Really, we declared war on Yemen for blowing up the Cole ? That fucking pussy Clinton wouldn't even let those sailors have a loaded .50 cal on the fucking boat.


I was unaware that Yemen...


1. Had an air force
2. Used its airforce on the Cole
3 Had torpedo boats
4. Used torpedo boats on the Cole.

A couple morons blowing themselves up in a boat isn't an act of war.

[mendozathejew]

Its not for me because three guys try to push the Jewish agenda in every single thread? And when its not about Israel its about bashing Democrats, blacks and Muslims.

Hey George/Striker, when I stop posting fact based arguments, you let me know.


Any other nation in the world bombs a US ship, kills 34 and injures hundreds and it would be WW3. Israel does it and we scoff it off because we wouldn't want to come of as Anti-Semites.

or because we determined it was a mistake. Canada didnt declare war on us when we accidentally killed their soldiers.

[Cunta Kinte]

Hey George/Striker, when I stop posting fact based arguments, you let me know.




or because we determined it was a mistake. Canada didnt declare war on us when we accidentally killed their soldiers.


This isn't another member using an alias screen name. I mainly post on FBA, I've been lurking here for years.

Feel free to post some facts about the USS Liberty, it seems that a discussion never happened or it ended fast since Israel can do no wrong..:icon_roll

[Cunta Kinte]

or because we determined it was a mistake. Canada didnt declare war on us when we accidentally killed their soldiers.


A mistake? :p

Two unmarked Israel jets "mistakenly" carpet bomb a highly unique radio ship with tons of antennas and an American flag flying.

[Plunkies]

A mistake? :p

Two unmarked Israel jets "mistakenly" carpet bomb a highly unique radio ship with tons of antennas and an American flag flying.

So you're saying the Israelis purposely attacked a major ally while they happened to be in a war with another country? Since no good conspiracy theory works without some kind of motive, what exactly was the motive in this attack?

[Cunta Kinte]

So you're saying the Israelis purposely attacked a major ally while they happened to be in a war with another country? Since no good conspiracy theory works without some kind of motive, what exactly was the motive in this attack?

Conspiracy theory? Regardless of the motives, it did in fact happen. This isn't some "Did Building seven really collapse" thread.

What motive would Israel have in attacking a US ship with no self defense, just off of Israel's coast?

It would be a pretty good reason for the US to join the War effort don't you think? One could argue that if the US joined the war in 67, a little more then the Golan Heights would have been captured. One could also argue that the middle east and its Oil reserves would be in US control by NOW if this happened 40 years ago.

This isn't just my opinion or the opinion of a bunch of "Truthers", just listen to the crew of the ship...

Theres various things that lead me to believe that it wasn't just an accident:

1. The Israel's knew which radio frequency to jam.
2. The two jets were unmarked
3. After launching rockets and using armor piercing rounds on the entire deck, they dropped Napalm.
4. They launched 4-5 torpedoes at the ship, the Captain managed to outmaneuver all but one of them.
5. After managing to restore communications, they sent an SOS to a nearby ship that was two hours away. Help didn't show up for four hours. And by "help" I am talking about fighter jets.
6. The crew said that the Israel torpedo ships machine gunned the life boats, everyone of them.
7. President Johnson "Reportedly" said something along the lines of "I want that ship to sink" when he was in direct communication with the Carrier that was supposed to "rescue" the Liberty.
8. Reportedly, as soon as news hit that the Israel's attacked the Liberty, two jets with Nukes took off from said Carrier towards Cairo.


Theres a very good BBC documentary which includes interviews with the crew. Theres also interviews with the crew on youtube.

This isn't just pure speculation, unless you're not willing to take the word from people who were there..

[mendozathejew]

so LBJ conspired with the jews to maybe take over middle eastern countries. nice. thats more realistic to you than Israel, in the midst of fighting a war against multiple nations, made a war time error. essentially friendly fire, which happens all the time? seriously? even though the US said at the UN, days before, that it had no ship within hundreds of miles of the conflict?

interesting that you didnt pick up on the actual debate in this thread or other threads on this issue, but picked up one in which is controversial and still open to debated. you cant win on the others, so you do what people always have done. go to your last refuge, the jewish conspiracy theory. along with LBJ, of course.

did they also conspire to kill JFK years earlier, as Qadhafi stated a couple weeks ago?

[Plunkies]

Conspiracy theory? Regardless of the motives, it did in fact happen. This isn't some "Did Building seven really collapse" thread.

Uh yeah...That's the conspiracy theory. The widely accepted reality is that it was a wartime friendly fire accident, and the conspiracy theory is what you're talking about. Building seven DID collapse. The conspiracy is how and why.

What motive would Israel have in attacking a US ship with no self defense, just off of Israel's coast?

It would be a pretty good reason for the US to join the War effort don't you think? One could argue that if the US joined the war in 67, a little more then the Golan Heights would have been captured. One could also argue that the middle east and its Oil reserves would be in US control by NOW if this happened 40 years ago.

So basically you're saying the US and Israel conspired together to attack a manned US vessel. Israel was supposed to make the attack look like it came from non-Israeli fighters, correct? And this was all to take over the Middle East and nuke Egypt?

Yeah...That's definitely a conspiracy theory. Too bad the silly Jews were too stupid to use weapons that would actually sink a ship. :icon_roll

[MrBogey]

The problem with all the Liberty conspiracy theories is the jews taped their radio exchanges.

[Legend of Snuka]

The USS Liberty was unfortunately a friendly fire incident..It was fuckup by the Israeli planes but it was not intentional. Basically what really caused the damage was Israeli torpedo boats after some ammo exploded on the Liberty. The Israeli's thought it was firing back.

Actually I believe initially the Israeli's thought it was an Egyptian destroyer then they thought it was a Soviet ship. Eventually amongst all the confusion they realized it was American after the damage was done.

[Cunta Kinte]

Uh yeah...That's the conspiracy theory. The widely accepted reality is that it was a wartime friendly fire accident, and the conspiracy theory is what you're talking about. Building seven DID collapse. The conspiracy is how and why.



So basically you're saying the US and Israel conspired together to attack a manned US vessel. Israel was supposed to make the attack look like it came from non-Israeli fighters, correct? And this was all to take over the Middle East and nuke Egypt?

Yeah...That's definitely a conspiracy theory. Too bad the silly Jews were too stupid to use weapons that would actually sink a ship. :icon_roll

No, actually I didn't say that but thanks for adding facts to make it seem more outlandish. Israel bombs ship, US goes into hush hush mode to quell anti-Jewish sentiment. Its really not that far fetched but of course, everything that the US says at the UN is absolute proof:rolleyes:

I'll take the word of the crew, which none of you can disprove.

[Cunta Kinte]

so LBJ conspired with the jews to maybe take over middle eastern countries. nice. thats more realistic to you than Israel, in the midst of fighting a war against multiple nations, made a war time error. essentially friendly fire, which happens all the time? seriously? even though the US said at the UN, days before, that it had no ship within hundreds of miles of the conflict?

interesting that you didnt pick up on the actual debate in this thread or other threads on this issue, but picked up one in which is controversial and still open to debated. you cant win on the others, so you do what people always have done. go to your last refuge, the jewish conspiracy theory. along with LBJ, of course.

did they also conspire to kill JFK years earlier, as Qadhafi stated a couple weeks ago?

Theres nothing interesting about it. As it stands there wasn't a debate at all, it was one guy offering a different opinion and the Jew spin doctors attacking as usual. The typical horse shit one Jew life equals one thousand arabs.

Both sides have blood on their hands.

If it were such an open and shut case, as you say then why is it controversial and still open for debate? All I see is an entire crew with one story and the United States government and the Israel government covering their own asses.

But of course, its too far fetched to even imagine. Gulf of Tonkin ring a bell?:rolleyes:

[wes mantooth]

No, actually I didn't say that but thanks for adding facts to make it seem more outlandish. Israel bombs ship, US goes into hush hush mode to quell anti-Jewish sentiment. Its really not that far fetched but of course, everything that the US says at the UN is absolute proof:rolleyes:

I'll take the word of the crew, which none of you can disprove.



I kinda like Jews though so I'm going with their version.

[Cunta Kinte]

I kinda like Jews though so I'm going with their version.

Makes sense, disregard eye witnesses and take the word of diplomats..

Dead In The Water- The Sinking of the USS Liberty (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311)

Check it out, theres also some very candid interviews with many of the same crew members, i'll try to find them.

/Conspiracy

[wes mantooth]

Makes sense, disregard eye witnesses and take the word of diplomats..

Dead In The Water- The Sinking of the USS Liberty (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311)

Check it out, theres also some very candid interviews with many of the same crew members, i'll try to find them.

/Conspiracy


Ah, very informative. Still going with the Jews though.

[mendozathejew]

If it were such an open and shut case, as you say then why is it controversial and still open for debate?

because when dealing with friendly fire, and a situation like this, it was a judgment call. and thats always debated regardless of facts. when it comes to anti semites judging jews judgments, its certainly always going to be debated in the same predictable direction, where someone like you asked for facts on this issue (which wasnt the issue regarding this thread until you curiously diverted it) from numerous posters.


http://hnn.us/articles/369.html

[Cunta Kinte]

because when dealing with friendly fire, and a situation like this, it was a judgment call. and thats always debated regardless of facts. when it comes to anti semites judging jews judgments, its certainly always going to be debated in the same predictable direction, where someone like you asked for facts on this issue (which wasnt the issue regarding this thread until you curiously diverted it) from numerous posters.


http://hnn.us/articles/369.html

Anyone that doesn't support Isreal 100% of the way is branded an Anti-Semite, really its lost its edge nowadays.

I stated a simple thing, that Israel isn't as "Innocent" as some of the super jews of this message board would like to make it out to be. That it has American blood on its hands Which seems to be a little known fact, I guess we can blame that on the evil socialist news organizations.

Want me to address the topic at hand? Theres absolutely nothing wrong with what Israel did. Sometimes diplomacy is a good thing and if most of you guys had your way the middle east would be glass.

The truth is that you guys can't handle it went anyone goes against the status quo and by that I mean someone who isn't a racist(as long as they aren't towards Jews) and someone who isn't a die hard republican who thinks Obama is the anti-christ and America will be Norway in four years.

Grow some balls you hard line fucks, if you can't get into a debate without labeling a person a troll then its pointless to debate. And this isn't some ridiculous concept like a "9/11 inside job" thread from dibby or whatever his name is. Its an actual event, which happened forty years ago and was swept under the rug a couple hours after it happened to cut down on Antisemitism in the US.

But of course, thats all ridiculous, I just live to hate the Jews 24/7, its my hobby. Hate hate hate:rolleyes:

[chiapeteater]

Still going with the Jews though.

Same here. As Jimmy once put it, you can live in a Jewish and gay neighbor hood and the only thing you have to worry about is the neighbors garden is just a little too perfect and every now and then all you smell is matzahballs.Fuck the savages. You don't have to worry about your wallet getting stolen or your house being vandalized. Nuke the middle east.

[Cunta Kinte]

Same here. As Jimmy once put it, you can live in a Jewish and gay neighbor hood and the only thing you have to worry about is the neighbors garden is just a little too perfect and every now and then all you smell is matzahballs.Fuck the savages. You don't have to worry about your wallet getting stolen or your house being vandalized. Nuke the middle east.

Including Israel, sounds like a deal. Maybe the shit dicks on both sides will live in peace.

[Plunkies]

No, actually I didn't say that but thanks for adding facts to make it seem more outlandish. Israel bombs ship, US goes into hush hush mode to quell anti-Jewish sentiment. Its really not that far fetched but of course, everything that the US says at the UN is absolute proof:rolleyes:


I wasn't adding facts to make it seem more outlandish you fucking douche. You said the President wanted the ship sunk, I assumed you meant both governments were in collusion. In fact now it makes even less sense. Every US investigation and all declassified info points to accidental friendly fire. Apparently Israel can fool the US in the aftermath of the attack and every single investigation conducted by numerous sources over 40 years, but they can't sink a fucking non-combat ship because they forgot to bring the appropriate weapons. Sort of like how the truthers think the government staged 9/11 to invade the Middle East when they can't even manage to plant WMDs in Iraq.

I'll take the word of the crew, which none of you can disprove.http://www.sixdaywar.org/uss-liberty.asp

[Cunta Kinte]

Why is it that people like yourselves and Jimmy Norton specifically think that the most developed and successful country in the world couldn't pull of a single thing without screwing up? You don't become a super power by being so inept. You also can't have a long history of shady terrorist like activities in certain third world countries and expect the general populous to believe that nothing can be done.

We have a long history of removing governments, installing governments and assassinating or "aiding" in the assassination of various leaders. But of course, nothing could be pulled off or covered up.

You're all ridiculous.

To go of course again, the thing that gets me about the 9/11 truthers and their attackers is that both parties seem to think that it could only happen one way. The most complicated of ways, involving thousands of people, demolition of both towers, etc.

What if it were just as simple as financing said individuals and giving them an "easy pass" to get into the country or on a plane. Sures its not some insane conspiracy theory but its a slight possibility. The benefits to certain individuals are obvious, the cost, 10-15,000 American civilians and military.

Am I saying that something like this happened? No but saying that everything is 100% fact is ridiculous. And people that believe that their government can do no wrong or don't go out of their way to hide things are equally blind.

[mendozathejew]

so LBJ conspired with the jews to maybe take over middle eastern countries. nice. thats more realistic to you than Israel, in the midst of fighting a war against multiple nations, made a war time error. essentially friendly fire, which happens all the time? seriously? even though the US said at the UN, days before, that it had no ship within hundreds of miles of the conflict?

interesting that you didnt pick up on the actual debate in this thread or other threads on this issue, but picked up one in which is controversial and still open to debated. you cant win on the others, so you do what people always have done. go to your last refuge, the jewish conspiracy theory. along with LBJ, of course.

did they also conspire to kill JFK years earlier, as Qadhafi stated a couple weeks ago?
I dont enjoy quoting myself. but it bears repetition. follow through on your shit. they conspired with LBJ, failed to sink a boat (while able to take on 3 full armies along with another 3 nations' soldiers at once). then bailed quickly on their plan to take all of the arabs oil and apologized shortly thereafter? is that it

[Cunta Kinte]

I dont enjoy quoting myself. but it bears repetition.

You've repeated nothing worth repeating. There were Russian and American ships in the vicinity, all monitoring the situation. The fact that the US said that all ships would be out a certain distance contradicts things a bit. Of course, a Jew hater, like myself, sees that as clear intention that the US wanted that ship, at that time.

There were also various reports from crew members that said Israel planes were flying by all day and knew were the ship was. Since when did a ship with a deck full of antennas pose anything threat. Especially when said ship is flying the flag of your so called "Greatest ally"

Theres no way the Liberty could be mistaken for any other ship, it was very unique.

[Hoagie]

This thread has gotten completely off topic and turned into another pointless conspiracy argument thread. All conspiracy arguments are pointless because no one has all the answers so no one can really say for sure.

However, I will add this much. I agree that it's silly to think that our government couldn't pull off a conspiracy. I'm sure they have. We can't name any because, when they pull them off, we don't know about them. Now I don't think they could pull it off on something like 9/11 because too many people on American soil would have to be involved. But in the middle east I could see it. That said, the fact that we know that it was Israeli planes kind of points to it not being a conspiracy. If they were conspiring to make it look like it was someone else then why would they admit to them being Israeli jets?

So once you take the conspiracy between the US and Israel out then what motivation would Israel have to attack a US ship? Would they really risk their most powerful ally to try to trick them into joining their war? Especially since the Israeli's were flying western built aircraft and the Egyptians flew Soviet built aircraft and those aircraft could easily be identified? A friendly fire incident is not only the easiest answer but the most obvious one if you really think about it. And that type of answer is pretty much always the right one.

[Cunta Kinte]

This thread has gotten completely off topic and turned into another pointless conspiracy argument thread. All conspiracy arguments are pointless because no one has all the answers so no one can really say for sure.

However, I will add this much. I agree that it's silly to think that our government couldn't pull off a conspiracy. I'm sure they have. We can't name any because, when they pull them off, we don't know about them. Now I don't think they could pull it off on something like 9/11 because too many people on American soil would have to be involved. But in the middle east I could see it. That said, the fact that we know that it was Israeli planes kind of points to it not being a conspiracy. If they were conspiring to make it look like it was someone else then why would they admit to them being Israeli jets?

So once you take the conspiracy between the US and Israel out then what motivation would Israel have to attack a US ship? Would they really risk their most powerful ally to try to trick them into joining their war? Especially since the Israeli's were flying western built aircraft and the Egyptians flew Soviet built aircraft and those aircraft could easily be identified? A friendly fire incident is not only the easiest answer but the most obvious one if you really think about it. And that type of answer is pretty much always the right one.

I would completely agree with everything you said in the last paragraph if the Israeli air force and navy didn't go out of their way to completely eliminate the ship.

Bombing, rockets, machine gunning, torpedoing and dropping napalm on the deck? Also including the testimony that Israel ships deliberately destroyed the life rafts, its seems that they were trying to eliminate the ship entirely with the whole crew.

On a totally hypothetical basis, what would Israel get out of attacking an US ship and killing the entire crew? I think that question answers itself. Exactly what they're getting in 2008, instead in 1967.

Let me just preface this by saying I support the war in the middle east, in the sense that I think its a necessity. I don't care about the people, I think we need to have some sort of control over the region and its resources, before China or Russia decides to do it themselves.

Getting back to the point, if we joined up in 1967, you could hypothetically say that the majority of the Middle East and North Africa would be in United States or Israeli control by now. Thats not a good enough reason for Israel to do such a thing? It would provide an unreal security blanket for a country always on the defense.

When was the last time a communications ship, with basically no defense, was decimated at this level? And like I said before, I am more willing to listen to the candid interviews of crew members who said they were strong armed into testimony over a government report issued by either government.

Just ask yourself, what would the US have to gain from attacking Israel after the bombing? Nothing

What president in their right mind would upset American Jews?

Both governments had no incentive to peruse a thorough investigation and for both parties sweeping whatever happened, under the rug, was the best option.

To say that it was just an accident is ridiculous.

[MrBogey]

Anyone that doesn't support Isreal 100% of the way is branded an Anti-Semite, really its lost its edge nowadays.

That old StormFront rallying cry is old and stupid.

[MrBogey]

Both governments had no incentive to peruse a thorough investigation and for both parties sweeping whatever happened, under the rug, was the best option.

To say that it was just an accident is ridiculous.

Because they're allies, stupid. Just like I'm sure some Canadian politicians thought it best not to paint themselves in warpaint and demand American heads when we bombed them. It's about not rocking the boat.

Oh, but your theory that the Jews wanted to sink a boat but decided halfway to stop attacking it and try to rescue it makes so much more sense.

And of course they started off trying to eliminate the whole crew. What the fuck do you think we do when we see an enemy ship? Have snipers in the plane take out the engines and then leaflet them till they surrender?

[caniseeyourtaint]

http://www.sixdaywar.org/uss-liberty.asp

Pretty compelling link there. Seems to make more sense and bear more proof than the conspiracy being 'exposed' here. Of course...its just someone writing something...can be all lies too. :rolleyes:

Just like the conspiracy 'facts' found in books, articles and websites with an agenda are.

If believing the more logical explanation with more facts makes me a sheep.....then Baaaaaaaaa!

[WOWmagnet]

Gatekeepers.

[Hoagie]

I would completely agree with everything you said in the last paragraph if the Israeli air force and navy didn't go out of their way to completely eliminate the ship.

Bombing, rockets, machine gunning, torpedoing and dropping napalm on the deck? Also including the testimony that Israel ships deliberately destroyed the life rafts, its seems that they were trying to eliminate the ship entirely with the whole crew.

On a totally hypothetical basis, what would Israel get out of attacking an US ship and killing the entire crew? I think that question answers itself. Exactly what they're getting in 2008, instead in 1967.

Let me just preface this by saying I support the war in the middle east, in the sense that I think its a necessity. I don't care about the people, I think we need to have some sort of control over the region and its resources, before China or Russia decides to do it themselves.

Getting back to the point, if we joined up in 1967, you could hypothetically say that the majority of the Middle East and North Africa would be in United States or Israeli control by now. Thats not a good enough reason for Israel to do such a thing? It would provide an unreal security blanket for a country always on the defense.

When was the last time a communications ship, with basically no defense, was decimated at this level? And like I said before, I am more willing to listen to the candid interviews of crew members who said they were strong armed into testimony over a government report issued by either government.

Just ask yourself, what would the US have to gain from attacking Israel after the bombing? Nothing

What president in their right mind would upset American Jews?

Both governments had no incentive to peruse a thorough investigation and for both parties sweeping whatever happened, under the rug, was the best option.

To say that it was just an accident is ridiculous.You're logic is completely flawed here. How would anyone in their right mind think that the best way to get the help of the US is to attack a US ship? And if they had mistaken the identity of the ship and thought it was an enemy ship, why is it so hard to believe that they would complete their attack on it? It's not like if you drop a bomb on an American ship it somehow blows up different then on an Egyptian ship and they would have recognized that and stopped the attack. It just doesn't make sense.

[thetick130]

This thread turned a corner since Friday. I think Dilly is back with a different name.

[Vyce]

Whomever he is, I suppose I should thank him for ruining a thread pointing out the savagery of Arab / Muslim terrorists towards the state of Israel with anti-Jew conspiracy theories.

Admins / mods / Wackbag staff, could you just close this please and let's move on.

[WoodenPlank]

Whomever he is, I suppose I should thank him for ruining a thread pointing out the savagery of Arab / Muslim terrorists towards the state of Israel with anti-Jew conspiracy theories.

Admins / mods / Wackbag staff, could you just close this please and let's move on.

Agreed. This shit is getting old in a hurry. First 9/11 troofers, now Anti-Jew conspiracy theories.

[Death Metal Moe]

that 'both sides have done a lot' is just some easy, feel good, middle of the road empty rhetoric people throw at the issue when they dont know much about the conflict or dont care to.


Oh, thanks for assuming I'm some know nothing American because I disagree with you. That was sweet.

[mendozathejew]

Oh, thanks for assuming I'm some know nothing American because I disagree with you. That was sweet.

"or dont care to." a lot of people who take that middle of the road stuff do know some facts about the conflict, but they just dont feel like filling out their scorecard and actually coming to any conclusions or judgments based on them. much easier to play down the middle in a vague way.