Am I the asshole or is he a douche bag?

[Sam_Adams]

http://www.nwaonline.com/articles/2006/04/13/front/01grandjury.txt


There is a young fella, 19yr, at work that I hurt emotionally tonight.

I walked in from break and the crew were watching TruTV with one of those "Most Dangerous" shows on and I sat down for a few minutes.

Well, they were showing a video clip of a cop that rammed a guy with his car because he was running and the cop didn't want to chase him. His excuse was that he was "afraid" of losing the guy. So, he pinned him to a tree with his car for running with a bag of cocaine.

I said outloud that these cops do some ridiculous shit sometimes without thinking and just act like some rambo "You're not going to cross me" kind of asshole. And I cited how there have been a lot of cops across the country that just ram motorcyclists with their patrol cars for running on a traffic violation.

I don't think it's worth killing someone for acting dumb on the road. Just let them go and jot down their plate number for apprehension at a later time.

Anyway, I said,"Well, I guess it's ok since cops can apparently shoot unarmed mentally handicapped people on the side of the road."

Now, the reference is local. A year ago there was a macho state trooper that didn't follow protocol and barged into felony stop after the highway patrol and sheriffs had calmed the mentally handicapped guy down. See, they mistook him for an escapee because he somewhat looked like the other guy and he turned around (no shit) when they yelled the other guy's name out.

But the statie rushed to the scene, jumped out of his car, didn't speak to the other cops, shouldered his loaded shotgun and started approaching the suspect (handicap) while yelling out orders (which of course scared the kid). So, the kid taps his leg and when he does that the Statie shoots him dead on the spot.

He of course said,"...I thought he may have been going for a gun :(" excuse like they tend to do even though the guy was lying flat on the road without any sort of advantage for an attack.

Back to the guy at work. So, when I said the thing about cops being able to shoot unarmed handicaps the guy started yelling saying "Do you even know that cop? He's a good guy and you're an asshole for bringing it up." I then told him that the cop shot an unarmed man without being CONFRONTED with a firearm and used the "he was going for his pocket" excuse. You're not supposed to kill people on suspicion.

Then the kid tells me "You don't even know him. You don't respect anyone, you just care about yourself. You don't even know what happened." So, I then told him that I know more about it in detail than he was told.

He then said that if I knew about it then tell him. So, I started telling him from the start what happened even before the cop got to the scene (I saw 40 minutes of raw police video from three cars, including the offending officer) and then he just keeps interrupting me so that I can't tell him what happened.

I then see that his bottom lip was starting to shake so I stopped talking because I realized that he wasn't capable of talking about the facts of what happened to a guy his parent's know.

Now, I can't side with the cop. The kid was trying to make him out to be a victim because he "lost his job and life for what happened" but the kid forgets that the handicapped guy's family no longer has their son because a cop overreacted and didn't follow orders to stay down the interstate and block traffic.

So, am I the asshole for not caring about a cop that killed an unarmed mentally handicapped kid or is the guy the douchebag for thinking that the cop is somehow a victim because he lost his job and plead guilty to misdemeanor negligent homicide?

[Nortonsmeatytit]

shit, I feel mentally handicaped just trying to make sense of this entire fucking story

[Edible Napalm]

The kid is the douche. You just brought up facts.

[FAZ8218]

Neither. You're not an asshole, and he's not a douche bag. But the kid shouldn't assume he knows more than you just because his parents know the cop. In the end you're more informed than him, and you're allowed to have an opinion. He's just some kid who you work with, he's not your best friend. Fuck it.

[Bone Dry]

I went to school to be a cop. (still playing with the idea) So I'm sort of biased. Its a cops job to deescalate a situation. There trained to asses a situation and react. If he thought that the guy had a gun then he did what he was supposed to do. If he was clearly dealing with a MDP then he fucked up. There is no way for anyone to really know.

Are you an asshole? Sure why not, but probably not in that situation.

[roche]

I vote douche bag for the one fact you put ketchup in your chili. ;)

[Chino Kapone]

I remeber that story.. Pretty sad.

That cop fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked up and deserves what he got. He cost a man his life, a handicapped man that couldnt really understand the situation.

Your not an asshole in taht situation.

[ddberry]

It's easier to see things black & white when you are further away from a situation. Doesn't make you an asshole, just means you wasted your time trying to make your point after you found out the kid had a personal connection to the cop.

[Plunkies]

That cop removed a burden from society. How can you be so ungrateful?

[WhiteHonkyDevil]

You're the douchebag for the choices in the poll

[buxotica]

I vote douche bag for the one fact you put ketchup in your chili. ;)

Damn you. I had only skimmed through his post until I read that. I went back and read it carefully most of the way through before realizing that you were referencing another thread or something.:icon_mrgr Yes, putting ketchup in chili is a horrendous faux pas.

Sam Adams, you are not an asshole for having a strong opinion about how the police handle such situations. Ol Shaky Lip is not a douche bag for being young and unable to handle a stressful argument without getting all emotional.

[CousinDave]

If you run from or fight the police (whether they are in the right or wrong) you voluntarily give up any expectation that your life will continue.

[duGandfriends]

So a shotgun will go through retart skull bone?

good to know

[Sam_Adams]

If you run from or fight the police (whether they are in the right or wrong) you voluntarily give up any expectation that your life will continue.


I dont agree. Cops do not have free reign to just kill civilians beacuase they dont listen to them.

Cops are trained to stay calm and bring things under control, not be rambo and be agressive with someone that is unarmed and lying on the ground.

I don't even think that cops should pull their weapons like they do. Sometimes they will pull weapons just to walk around a car on a traffic stop.

That is agressive behavior. They shouldn't be the agressors. Pull your weapon if you NEED it, not because you're walking up to someone.

If no one else is calm in a situation it should be the cop. They are trained for that and if you go all Rambo on someone then there is no excuse.

[B54]

I dont agree. Cops do not have free reign to just kill civilians beacuase they dont listen to them.

Cops are trained to stay calm and bring things under control, not be rambo and be agressive with someone that is unarmed and lying on the ground.

I don't even think that cops should pull their weapons like they do. Sometimes they will pull weapons just to walk around a car on a traffic stop.

That is agressive behavior. They shouldn't be the agressors. Pull your weapon if you NEED it, not because you're walking up to someone.

If no one else is calm in a situation it should be the cop. They are trained for that and if you go all Rambo on someone then there is no excuse.

Back in DeKalb Co. GA ... they always pull the gun out in a traffic stop. As soon as you are pulled over, you hear driver, slowly step out the car with both hands showing and walk backwards, with their guns drawn. It was standard when I lived there, no idea if they still do this ... but then again, most people they encounter are armed and dangerous so I can see why it's done. Honestly ... they are just doing their jobs ... which isn't to protect and serve you, it's to protect and serve the law.

There have been countless incidents where a cop has approached the driver side window and someone shoots them instantly because they are doing something wrong and don't want to get caught ... or even just because they don't feel like getting a speeding ticket that day.

Is that enough justification? You ask me, it is. Think about how many people they pull over and interact with in a single day ... why needlessly risk their own lives ... they just want to go home at the end of the day ... it's understandable from my point of view ... as much as you can say it's a violation of rights, etc, etc ... they are just trying to survive. Even if it is only a small chance where an incident like that occurs, why take the chance that you run into that one person one day? It's better to be safe than sorry ...

This coming from me ... I've been arrested a few times ... but it's not like I'm blaming the cop ... he was simply doing his job, simple as that. I respect what cops do, if they seem like unfair dicks at some point to some people ... they are just looking out for themselves, totally understandable.

You might end up going to jail ... but at the end of the day, if you weren't doing anything wrong, you will have you're day in front of a judge and you shouldn't have to worry.

Going as far as killing someone, yeah, fucked up, but I doubt the cop was actually thinking, 'I'm going to kill him for the hell of it'.

Unless you're a ******, then you're just fucked either way.

[roche]

Back in DeKalb Co. GA ... they always pull the gun out in a traffic stop. As soon as you are pulled over, you hear driver, slowly step out the car with both hands showing and walk backwards, with their guns drawn. It was standard when I lived there, no idea if they still do this ... but then again, most people they encounter are armed and dangerous so I can see why it's done. Honestly ... they are just doing their jobs ... which isn't to protect and serve you, it's to protect and serve the law.

I call bullshit. You are lying doctor.

[CM Mark]

I wanted nothing more than to call you an asshole, but I decided to actually read the story.

The kid is a douche, you were in the right..............for once

[B54]

I call bullshit. You are lying doctor.

:rolleyes:

I've seen it done to people.

Maybe they were doing something wrong, had warrants out for them, etc ... but I know DeKalb is extra aggressive ... they are the ones that shot that 92 year old lady a couple years ago ... I don't know if they still are, but the Co. used to have the highest cop killing civilian ratio in the US.


In DeKalb County, Georgia, a grand jury found that 1 in 12 fatal shootings by the police are unjustified and in one case a medical examiner planted evidence to help officers. (AP)

...

The panel also recommended that all law enforcement officers, including those in DeKalb County, get more training at night, in use of force and how to de-escalate situations.

[roche]

Back in DeKalb Co. GA ... they always pull the gun out in a traffic stop. As soon as you are pulled over, you hear driver, slowly step out the car with both hands showing and walk backwards, with their guns drawn. It was standard when I lived there

:rolleyes:

I've seen it done to people.

Maybe they were doing something wrong, had warrants out for them, but I know DeKalb is extra aggressive ... they are the ones that shot that 92 year old lady a couple years ago ... I don't know if they still are, but the Co. used to have the highest cop killing civilian ratio in the US.

Wow. Pretty big change in your story there. At first it was standard procedure and it happened to everyone but then it changed to maybe a few people you knew that had warrants.

I stand by my statement. You are a liar.

[CM Mark]

I stand by my statement. You are a liar.

Not to mention an understater

This coming from me ... I've been arrested a few times

[English Gent]

You're an asshole, but not necessarily because of anything that you did in that situation.

[Sam_Adams]

You're an asshole, but not necessarily because of anything that you did in that situation.

I always knew that you were my #1 fan :love:

[Ziti Lo Mein]

Neither. You both had opinions and personal opinions in the matter and your ideas on it just didn't agree. What that cop did *was* bad, but at the same time, was what he did really accidental? Maybe it was and he just reacted incorrectly. Neither you nor him are wrong or asshole-ish to think one way or another on the situation

[Dopie Opie]

ketchup in chilli ??? geeze

[THE FEZ MAN]

typical kid being a douche bag

[Three Hole Puncher]

He's an assbag and you're a douche hole.

[DJ Evel Ed]

You're just a big meanie making his poor lip shake. Apologize and bring him a bowl of chili.

[Buster H]

Kid is naive

You are an ass for instantly blaming the cops whenever you could see something POTENTIALLY wrong

[fandango86]

Kid is naive

You are an ass for instantly blaming the cops whenever you could see something POTENTIALLY wrong

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. That is your interpretation of the (Cop/retard) story, but I'd like to see a linkie to a news article with follow-ups including the cop's conviction and sentence before I label the kid naive.

[Sam_Adams]

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. That is your interpretation of the (Cop/retard) story, but I'd like to see a linkie to a news article with follow-ups including the cop's conviction and sentence before I label the kid naive.

A link to the news article is posted on my original post.

I looked for the video that someone used to have online but they took it down.

[WOWmagnet]

I always side against a shitnose kid.

Fuck 'im. Grow up, bitch.

[fandango86]

A link to the news article is posted on my original post.

I looked for the video that someone used to have online but they took it down.

All your article says is that the cop shot the kid and has been indicted on a misdemeanor. Your 'facts' such as that the cop is 'macho', he 'jumped' out of the car, didn't speak to the other officers, etc, are your interpretation. Nothing in the article suggests any of that. And of course, an indictment is pretty fucking far from a conviction.

[WOWmagnet]

All your article says is that the cop shot the kid and has been indicted on a misdemeanor. Your 'facts' such as that the cop is 'macho', he 'jumped' out of the car, didn't speak to the other officers, etc, are your interpretation. Nothing in the article suggests any of that. And of course, an indictment is pretty fucking far from a conviction.

Yeah, Dude, WTF?

[Buster H]

A link to the news article is posted on my original post.

I looked for the video that someone used to have online but they took it down.
I know you didn't quote me, but I think my main point was missed. You wouldn't have even gotten into this discussion with the kid if you didn't make all kinds of assumptions and accusations about cops in the video you were watching on TV.

It seems to me that you instantly think all cops are douches and all on a power trip. It really isn't the case. Yeah, there are a few bad people out there, but if every cop in America was as bad as you say, there would be hundreds of stories like this every day.

[kidconnor]

Norman Given 90 Days' Jail Time
Hamley Family Satisfied With Sentence
Last updated Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:11 PM CDT in News
By Don Dailey
THE MORNING NEWS
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BENTONVILLE -- Mary Hamley avoided looking at Larry Norman through most of her testimony, but fixed her eyes on him as she began to read from a closing statement.

"I've had a lot of early mornings since Erin's death."

Norman stared at the table in front of him through most of Hamley's testimony, but raised his head as she finished in tears.

"Time won't heal this broken heart."

"There's nothing I can do to bring him back, and I deeply regret it," a subdued Norman said later from the stand in a low monotone.

Mary said Erin dreamed of living as normal a life as possible despite his cerebral palsy and mental disabilities.


"His dream was ... he'd live to be an old man and hold his children and grandchildren," she said.

Arkansas State Police Trooper Larry Norman shot and killed Joseph Erin Hamley last year in a case of mistaken identity. A judge Thursday sentenced him to 90 days in the county jail, 30 days of community service, a $1,000 fine and a year's probation.

His lawyer, John Everett, asked him why he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor negligent homicide in the death.

"I made a mistake, and I try to take responsibility for my mistakes and teach my children the same," he replied.

Senior Circuit Judge Tom Keith handed down the sentence after almost two hours of testimony from Hamley's family, and Norman's family and former co-workers. Norman retired after the shooting.

"It's amazing how in a flick of a moment ... we had one life lost and another life unalterably changed, and it was a mistake," Keith said from the bench.

"This may be a form of closure, but there is no closure when you've lost a loved one, and there is no closure for Mr. Norman. Hopefully he will recognize that he's more than one mistake in one instant of time," he added.

Erin Hamley's brothers, Sean and Bud, also testified.

Bud said the he'd often been asked why the family wasn't keeping tabs on Erin the day he died. Bud said Erin was 21 years old and had shown he could take care of himself.

"He had his own life and own friends," he said.

It has never been revealed how Erin, who was on foot, got so far from his Springdale home. The shooting occurred almost 15 miles from his house.

Mary Hamley read a short statement after the sentencing in which the family said it was satisfied.

"We feel that justice was served and that the Constitution was upheld," Mary Hamley said. "I feel that justice was done for Erin."

Norman pleaded guilty May 4 after being indicted a year earlier by the first grand jury called in a quarter-century in Benton County.

Early on March 7, 2006, Norman shot the 21-year-old Hamley on the shoulder of U.S. 412 west of Tontitown. Norman was responding to a report that a man on the highway could be Adam Lee Leadford, who had eluded local police for three days after escaping from a prison boot camp in Michigan.

Norman testified in depositions and during Thursday's hearing that he believed Hamley was Leadford and shot in response to Hamley's hand movements, which appeared as if he could be reaching for a weapon.

His wife, Mary Norman, and his sister-in-law, also named Mary Norman, testified about how difficult life had become for Larry Norman in the wake of the shooting.

"He doesn't sleep. He hides behind his ball cap, and he'll never forgive himself," his wife said.

Larry wiped away tears as his wife spoke about how he cleans chicken houses for a living now and limits his contact with family and friends.

"That day we lost a part of Larry, as well," she said.

His sister-in-law, Mary Norman, speaking for the family after the hearing, expressed sympathy for the Hamley family and support for Larry.

"I believe that he has always served to protect and at that time that was what he was trying to do," she said.

Benton County Prosecutor Van Stone said the sentence was acceptable.

"If the Hamley family is satisfied, and the public is satisfied, then the prosecutor's office is satisfied as well," he said. "The family had an opportunity to tell the public what Erin Hamley was like" and that was important to them.

Benton County Sheriff Keith Ferguson took Norman from the courthouse in handcuffs, but he will be released today for 10 days to take care of his affairs at home.

Norman's adjudication took a somewhat unusual route. Instead of the common plea bargain in which prosecutors and defense attorneys agree on a charge and a sentence, Norman pleaded guilty to the charge handed down by the grand jury and asked for the judge to decide the sentence.

Keith ordered a relatively rare presentence investigation, which provided a sentence recommendation.

Only the recommendation portion of the presentence investigation was made public Thursday. The investigator recommended a sentence of 30 days in jail with 29 days suspended and a $750 fine paid to the charitable organization of Mary Hamley's choice.

Norman, 41, of West Fork, an 18-year police veteran, faced up to a year in jail.

The grand jury concluded Norman disregarded orders, played the radio in his police cruiser too loudly to hear dispatches and did not communicate with other officers before shooting Hamley.

Norman was sitting in his cruiser in a parking lot in Fayetteville when he heard Trooper Wilson Short dispatched to check out a report that Leadford had been spotted, the grand jury's report said.

Acting on a "gut feeling" that the reported man was indeed Leadford and that there would be a problem, Norman sped to the location. Once there, he ignored Short's order to block traffic on the highway and instead joined Short and four Washington County deputies in a perimeter around Hamley with guns drawn, the grand jury report said.

The officers ordered Hamley onto his stomach, but Hamley lay on his back instead. Norman said Hamley appeared to be reaching into his pocket, but the grand jury decided Hamley may have been attempting to turn onto his stomach.

The grand jury reported Norman, who had been on the scene less than a minute, fired his shotgun once and the slug grazed the pavement before hitting Hamley in the side. Norman told Short the shot was not an accident.

Police captured Leadford later that day in Springdale after a high-speed chase. Leadford was sentenced to 30 years in prison for his actions in Benton County. He was sentenced to six years in prison on charges in Washington County.

Norman waived his right to a jury trial in his plea and also waived the right to appeal.

The state paid Hamley's estate $1 million, and the family agreed the settlement would satisfy all claims. The State Police did not admit wrongdoing.

The agency granted Norman medical retirement last year based on what his attorney called an "enormous psychological overlay" from the shooting. Norman testified that his retirement pay is about $16 a day.

Some of the incident was captured by cameras mounted on police vehicles. The film and other evidence, including hours of interviews conducted by the grand jury of Norman and other officers on the scene, were made public Thursday.

THE Morning News' Doug Thompson, Robin Mero and Josh Dooley contributed to this report.

AT A GLANCE

The Sentence

* 90 days in the Benton County Jail. He will be given 10 days to get his affairs in order before starting his sentence

* 30 days of community service at the Benton County Sunshine School or the Benton County Adult Development Center

* 12 months' probation

* The maximum $1,000 fine

Why A Negligent Homicide Charge?

Robin Green, who was serving as prosecutor when Erin Hamley was shot by State Police Trooper Larry Norman, requested a grand jury be convened to consider an indictment.

Green presented several optional charges to the 16-member grand jury, including manslaughter, a felony carrying a sentence of up to 10 years in prison.

Jurors chose the lightest charge: misdemeanor negligent homicide. They released an eight-page report that called Norman's actions "troubling" and "disturbing."

A charge of manslaughter would have required recklessness on Norman's part. Recklessness is defined as consciously disregarding risk.

Source: Staff Report

He served 54 days of that sentence.

[SatansCheerledr]

Why does everything have to be either/or?

[Capt.Caveman]

I think your both douches

[Capt.Caveman]

kid is naive

you are an ass for instantly blaming the cops whenever you could see something potentially wrong

x2

[shwoogie]

Cops should shoot retards even if they aren't a threat

[Sam_Adams]

I know you didn't quote me, but I think my main point was missed. You wouldn't have even gotten into this discussion with the kid if you didn't make all kinds of assumptions and accusations about cops in the video you were watching on TV.

It seems to me that you instantly think all cops are douches and all on a power trip. It really isn't the case. Yeah, there are a few bad people out there, but if every cop in America was as bad as you say, there would be hundreds of stories like this every day.

No, I don't think that all cops are douches. Most of them are decent folks. But there are cops out there that think they are Rambo and do stupid shit.

If you read the news story and decision from the grand jury you will see that he simply ignored orders and didn't even speak with the other cops at the scene when he arrived.

He was there for about a minute before he killed Hamley.

[Cunt Smasher]

What he said^^^^^^
http://www.nwaonline.net/video/2007/06/062807hamleyshooting/

[Sct Ptersns Twn]

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, that's terrific....that's terrific.......

[BCH]

I used my mod powers to vote for both.

[Buster H]

No, I don't think that all cops are douches. Most of them are decent folks. But there are cops out there that think they are Rambo and do stupid shit.

If you read the news story and decision from the grand jury you will see that he simply ignored orders and didn't even speak with the other cops at the scene when he arrived.

He was there for about a minute before he killed Hamley.

so how did watching a TV show prompt the discussion about the guy killing a retard?

[Sam_Adams]

so how did watching a TV show prompt the discussion about the guy killing a retard?

I made a joke about cops doing stupid things and said,"Well I guess it's ok (talking about what happened on the TV show) since it's apparently ok for cops to shoot unarmed mentally handicapped folks on the side of the road."

[LZMF1]

Neither. You're not an asshole, and he's not a douche bag. But the kid shouldn't assume he knows more than you just because his parents know the cop. In the end you're more informed than him, and you're allowed to have an opinion. He's just some kid who you work with, he's not your best friend. Fuck it.
my thoughts exactly.

[Cunt Smasher]

The kids a douche for not being mature enough to know there might be another side to the story.

[WhiteHonkyDevil]

I made a joke about cops doing stupid things and said,"Well I guess it's ok (talking about what happened on the TV show) since it's apparently ok for cops to shoot unarmed mentally handicapped folks on the side of the road."

So, really, you were starting an argument?

Sam is the asshole for trying to tell the kid the truth

Had you not thrown "for trying to tell the kid the truth", I wouldn't have voted you as douchebag.