6 cylinder vs. 4 cylinder turbo

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SteveSteele

1 dog's goin this way..1 dog's goin that way...
Nov 22, 2004
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#26
If you want a fun reliable cool car, check out the 01 Subaru impreza 2.5rs. There are not a ton of them around, extremely reliable 4cylinders non-turbo. AWD and will last for a really long time.

My roommate drives one, has tons of mods, thrown it on the track and it still drives extremely well with over 130k miles on it.
You can mod those out to WRX STI specs. That being said, the STI is my next vehicle purchase. 500+ HP that's reliable for under $7k.
 

foyb

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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#28
I had a car with a turbo 4 when I was in college, it seemed like I had it in the shop more than on the road. Plus, where I live, I had a hard time finding someone to work on it. The wife had a Cimaron (or however you spell it - a caddy cavalier), with a v-6, when we got rid of it, it had 180,000 miles and was still going. I'd go with the v-6. I was much more happy with the performance of a v-6 over the turbo 4 too. Turbo lag sucks.
 

Don the Radio Guy

G-Bb-A-D
Donator
Mar 30, 2006
69,623
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#29
I had a car with a turbo 4 when I was in college, it seemed like I had it in the shop more than on the road. Plus, where I live, I had a hard time finding someone to work on it. The wife had a Cimaron (or however you spell it - a caddy cavalier), with a v-6, when we got rid of it, it had 180,000 miles and was still going. I'd go with the v-6. I was much more happy with the performance of a v-6 over the turbo 4 too. Turbo lag sucks.
That 2.8 liter V6 Gm put in the Cavalier/Cimmaron is one of the toughest American engines ever built, can't be compared.

As far as mods here's something to think of:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8L7Ep48LI[/media]
 

SteveSteele

1 dog's goin this way..1 dog's goin that way...
Nov 22, 2004
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#30
Thanks for the wire advice. As for mods, I'm pretty stern on that. If I do though (which I doubt) my buddy has a specialty VW garage. They made a rear-engine gti that got on the cover of Euro-Tuner a few years back, so I would always just go to him for help with anything. Thats part of the reason I'm not too worried about the usual VW problems.
Most of the typical stuff has been mentioned. Window regulators have been rectified with a new metal design, and the coil packs can be fixed with plastic coat or epoxy. There is also a coil pack mod using stuff from MSD. I'll find that link and post it for you.

You don't have to add mods right away, but when stuff wears out are you going to replace it with factory spec shit or stuff that performs better? When you need tires why not get a set of high performance all seasons for a few dollars more. Same goes for springs and shocks. Most of that stuff can be had for cheaper if you go for the performance stuff. A couple of suspension tweaks go a long way. Check out Parts4VW's Good service and great prices. I've been dealing with them for years.
 

NotSoFast

Registered User
Apr 23, 2006
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#31
Take a look at Hyundai's. They used to be pieces of crap but now they are pretty good and have the best warranties out there. 6 year 60k miles.

Incorrect. Suzuki (and several other brands) have 7 year/100k mile warranties. I really like my new '08 Suzuki SX-4 Sport. Almost a clone (body wise) of the Jetta. 146HP, KYB performance shocks (handles curves like you wouldn't believe), 17" alloys standard, loaded with everything they offer for under $17k. Still gets the actual claimed 31 mpg on the highway. The auto transmission is a bit slower than the manual.
 
#32
If I were to buy a German car, it would be an AUDI w/quattro or the all wheel BMWs, I think that they end in X. The rest is just overpriced crap.
So somehow Audis w/AWD are not overpriced VW's (the usual claim) and the more complex BMW -X cars are not overpriced (but all other BMW's are)?

The real irony with VW's is their continuing terrible long-term reliability record and their very, VERY high resale value. How these two coexist is difficult to wrap my brain around. Also bottom-dwelling in reliability rankings is Mercedes-Benz. Go figure.
 
#33
I was much more happy with the performance of a v-6 over the turbo 4 too. Turbo lag sucks.
But the VW/Audi 1.8/2.0 turbo engines are famous for having next to NO turbo lag. I don't know when "college" was for you, or what vintage turbo car you were driving at the time, but most modern turbos have very little lag... And these VW engines even less than what is considered "normal" in 2008. These ain't mid-70's Porsche 911's we're talking about here.
 
#34
Incorrect. Suzuki (and several other brands) have 7 year/100k mile warranties.
Try again. Hyundai's warranty is 10 year/100k miles, not the 6yr/60k quoted earlier. Hyundai has the USA's longest warranty period, PERIOD (depending upon your personal annual mileage, of course). Even Hyundai's bumper-to-bumper warranty is nearly as long as Suzuki's powertrain-only warranty... Suzuki's bumper-to-bumper warranty is unremarkable at the more-or-less industry standard of 3yr/36k. Hyundai's is 5yr/60k.
 
#35
That 2.8 liter V6 Gm put in the Cavalier/Cimmaron is one of the toughest American engines ever built, can't be compared.
I can vouch for that. I drove a 1980 Citation with the 2.8 V6. The car was pretty reliable overall except for the clutch which needed replacing at 25k intervals. That, a couple of fuses and an exhaust system were all the car needed, except for the usual wear-and-tear stuff, up through 120k miles, when it was junked for a rust problem in the floor and a new clutch being about as expensive to replace as the car was worth at that point (1988).
 

jackjack

Registered User
May 12, 2007
4,994
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#36
exception is the diesels from the 80's and thats just because i want one to run on dirty fry oil
Even those are pretty much guaranteed to have a head gasket problem at some point. I had three '81 rabbit diesels, one of which I bought new. All of them eventually needed a new head gasket.
Not a huge deal, they're easy to replace. It's just another chronic problem for the list.
 
Jun 2, 2005
15,516
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Dallas
#37
^^^ you're reply is worth 1200 lbs. of dog poo if you give no explanation. The 4 has a turbo, so it's another part that can break, making it semi less reliable. My question is how much less reliable (if at all) is it.

And Voss's Tumor... I'm really wanting the GLI. That thing is purrrrrdy. I'm just torn between filling the tank more often, or having to deal with an eventual turbo blow-out.
I do have to say as someone who bought his VR6 Jetta brand new and drove it 100,000 miles before my ex totaled it, it would have made another 100,000 miles imo. (My dad was a Snap-On dealer so I know a lot about cars made up until about 1998. FEZ MAN knows a shit ton more than me, but I know a little bit, just fyi to consider the source)

The thing that agitated the shit out of me about that car was the little weird shit that would go wrong.

-A seat warmer on the driver's side went out in a really odd way, so that if I ever turned on the warmer it would literally burn through the seat and burn my ass. I mean to say, it would fucking burn the shit out of me.

-The passenger side window broke a clip or something and the whole window fell so hard it shattered. VW said it was a known problem and would replace it, and was astounded that I hadn't gotten the recall notice! I must have moved? (I'd lived in the same house the entire time I had the car)

-I ALWAYS had to fight for a rental car if I took it in for "Bullshit, how the hell does this happen on a car?" (seat warmers causing me bodily injury anyone?) It didn't seem to matter to the guys I was an on the road sales guy and I NEEDED my car considering my job literally could have me driving 100+ miles a day around Dallas. I mean, I dog the engine and fuck up the transmission and they know it and they're fixing it begrudgingly because I can't prove it? Maybe... A window shattering for no reason or a seat burning my ass? Gimme a fucking car douche bag, I shouldn't even have to ask once.

-From the minute I drove it off the lot there was a sort of grumble coming from the back of the car. I couldn't really place the sound and just wrote it off to a sort of "personality sound" of the car. All cars have minor little clicks and shit, no biggie... Nope, it was a rear wheel bearing. Apparently there was dirt or dust or some sort of corrosion that was wearing in the wheel bearing and it was literally grinding itself, and would have easily totally destroyed probably the entire back end had it failed... but they did fix it with no questions asked, no rental car not-with-standing.

There were a couple other minor events

All that being said, it just felt like it was built cheaply. It was a strange mix of nice, luxurious, great performance, and still cheap feeling. I mean, the dye started wearing on the driver's side leather (it was tan, fading to black at about 35k miles) The warranty guys were always willing to fix anything, and I was never in a situation where they were out right rude or anything, just always very well trained in the arts of asking you questions and repeating 500 times how sorry they were and how quickly they're going to take care of that for me... Only to have none of that be true. They never hit me up for money for anything, but they always kind of looked at me like I was the moron that reached in there and broke the shit myself.

Some people love VWs, I don't think I'll ever own one again.
 

THE FEZ MAN

as a matter of fact i dont have 5$
Aug 23, 2002
43,321
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#38
what bugs the shit out of me more than anything is every fucking time i try to take something apart it breaks, it seems that they are the the kings of once and done clips (trumped only buy honda) that and the electrical gremlins that seem to plague them, and there computer systems, as for the mexican built ones, there's still a lot of hand work that goes into building a car, and im sorry but a german auto worker is better trained and better taken care of than some wet back souf of the boarder, and it makes a differnce.

but the final nail in there coffin for me was the air bag incident with my freinds 05 toureg and the way they handled it.
 
#39
there's still a lot of hand work that goes into building a car, and im sorry but a german auto worker is better trained and better taken care of than some wet back souf of the boarder, and it makes a differnce.

the final nail in there coffin for me was the air bag incident with my freinds 05 toureg and the way they handled it.
But aren't all Touaregs made in Europe? Not Germany, but somewhere in Eastern Europe?
 
Jun 2, 2005
15,516
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Dallas
#40
But aren't all Touaregs made in Europe? Not Germany, but somewhere in Eastern Europe?
There's actually a federally mandated standard for how much of something has to be made somewhere before it can be called "Made in ____". In the auto industry, almost all cars are made in different stages in different countries, some by straight up outsourcing some parts (Like brake pads, I'd imagine) to a manufacturer where they're buying it from the equivalent of a NAPA on a large scale.

All that being said, I think the standards for the "Made in ___" Tag stand at 70/30, so as long as 70% of the Taureg is made in Germany, the other 30% (now this could mean parts, assembly of said parts, welds on frame work, think of everything that goes into actually "making a car" could be done in Central African sweatshops and they don't have to talk about it on the commercials.

What FEZ MAN is saying, in short, is that the last 30%'s a bitch when properly skimped on.

Honestly, though, that's what I tend to like about VWs as a buy it new, sell it before the warranty runs out type of car is that the parts that are part of the 70% are so fucking valuable they have massive resale. Also, you can't ever under-estimate the power of the hippy baby boomers when it comes to their inexplicable love for them when it comes time to make a buck in Autotrader on your way to buy a new one.

Just explaining my psychosis when it comes to how great, yet how incredibly shitty they are all at the same time.
 
#41
What FEZ MAN is saying, in short, is that the last 30%'s a bitch when properly skimped on.
I'm fully aware that "American cars" aren't necessarily made in the USA and "German cars" aren't necessarily made in Germany. That's why I insisted, back in 1990, that the Jetta that I ordered be made in GERMANY and not in Brazil. That's why I know the "American" Ford Focus I owned was made in Mexico (the most reliable car I ever owned, which kind of puts Fez's comments about inferior Mexican workmanship into an unfavorable perspective). That's why I know the "Japanese" Mazda6 I owned was made in Michigan. That's why I know both of my parents' "Japanese" Subarus were made in Indiana. That's how I know my neighbor, an employee of the local GM plant who crows "buy American" at every turn, owned an "American car" that was made in Canada, and his sister (a part-time GM plant worker) owns an "American car" that, while made in California, is based upon a wholly Japanese design (Pontiac Vibe, aka- Toyota Matrix).

My point is that I don't think ANY Touaregs are made in Germany, but are made in another country. I think it's Austria or Czechoslovakia (or whatever they're calling it now).

And I do agree with your assessment of VW's as "own new and discard before the warranty runs out" cars. I feel the same way about absolutely ANYTHING made in Germany, and indeed most cars not made by Honda or Toyota. I have no hard-on for either of those manufacturers, and have never personally owned a single model of either, but I do know plenty of people who own cars and the praise by the owners of those to brands is uniform. I have never, EVER known someone who owned a Honda or a Toyota who cursed their choice in the long run. Not to say that there aren't examples of poorly-made cars/trucks by those brands, but it's hard to argue against either one on reliability/investment grounds.
 
Jun 2, 2005
15,516
4
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Dallas
#42
Not arguing with you man, you just asked a very broad question and I had no idea of your level of knowledge on the subject, and hey, I was bored.

I was just saying that all he was saying was that when it came to VW's made more recently, it's become quite apparent where they're skimping in that 30% and it's making the cars slip horribly on the level of ownership beyond a certain point.

Then there's this from the original post:

Just explaining my psychosis when it comes to how great, yet how incredibly shitty they are all at the same time.
:action-sm
 

Fruit Monkey

Don't stare at it eat it! P-1 In trainning
Oct 4, 2004
5,416
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#43
ok quick and easy 6cy imo is way better u wont be pushing it as hard to get what u want. and will end up getting better fuel economy

4cy turbo yuk worthless hunk of shit and enjoy the idle time before you shut it down. yes u should always with a turbo let it idle before you turn off the car
why?
because it spins way more then the engine and it takes a few to slow down so if u just shut your car off it's spinning and not getting the oil it needs to keep the bearings lubed..
enjoy!
 

NotSoFast

Registered User
Apr 23, 2006
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#44
Try again. Hyundai's warranty is 10 year/100k miles, not the 6yr/60k quoted earlier. Hyundai has the USA's longest warranty period, PERIOD (depending upon your personal annual mileage, of course). Even Hyundai's bumper-to-bumper warranty is nearly as long as Suzuki's powertrain-only warranty... Suzuki's bumper-to-bumper warranty is unremarkable at the more-or-less industry standard of 3yr/36k. Hyundai's is 5yr/60k.
Cool, I was just going by the previously quoted 6/60 above. However, having owned several Suzuki motorcycles and outboard motors, I have zero misgivings about buying my Suzuki auto. It's a 100% Japanese designed and built machine, unlike the left-over Korean-built Daewoo's they had been selling. ( Forenza, Reno, and Verona )

I agree with today's Hyundai's being far better than their predecessors, but I'd still have to go with a Japanese built car over Hyundai, assuming the price/value was approximately the same.
 
#46
I agree with today's Hyundai's being far better than their predecessors, but I'd still have to go with a Japanese built car over Hyundai, assuming the price/value was approximately the same.
The only real problem with today's Hyundais is that they are still suffering from the well-deserved reputation of their forebears. Their resale value is still pretty low, so the money you save on the front end (at purchase time) is erased on the back end (sale or trade-in time). Not only is it erased, but in the long run the Hyundai will usually cost more than the competition (depending upon what car you're comparing it to, of course). This will likely change if Hyundai can keep upping their game, but it takes YEARS to build the goodwill they threw away with their first 15 years in the US market.
 
#47
yes u should always with a turbo let it idle before you turn off the car
why?
because it spins way more then the engine and it takes a few to slow down so if u just shut your car off it's spinning and not getting the oil it needs to keep the bearings lubed..
I think that you might have this a little wrong. When you pull into your driveway/parking spot/etc., the turbo will spin down to whatever speed the idling engine's exhaust stream will support. It will do this fairly quickly and that's not why you should let a turbo engine idle for a little bit before shutting it down. The reason as I understand it is that idling for a few moments will give the turbo time to cool down from its "working state" both from allowing cooler oil to circulate through it and from the reduced rpm of the turbocharger itself (the heat built up from high-energy exhaust gases, the heat produced on the compressor side, and from the higher friction of the higher rpm it's turning when "working"). Just giving the turbo a little time to rest will prolong its life because it's not shut down with the higher internal temperatures and there's less chance of the oil remaining in the turbo being 'cooked'.

At least that's what I always understood to be the case. Either way, it's not like you need to let it idle for five minutes or anything. One could make an argument that you could/should do the same thing for a non-turbo engine for exactly the same reasons, but I doubt this method would have anywhere near the effect as the internal temperatures in an engine are much more tightly controlled than the temperatures inside a turbocharger.
 

THE FEZ MAN

as a matter of fact i dont have 5$
Aug 23, 2002
43,321
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#48
I think that you might have this a little wrong. When you pull into your driveway/parking spot/etc., the turbo will spin down to whatever speed the idling engine's exhaust stream will support. It will do this fairly quickly and that's not why you should let a turbo engine idle for a little bit before shutting it down. The reason as I understand it is that idling for a few moments will give the turbo time to cool down from its "working state" both from allowing cooler oil to circulate through it and from the reduced rpm of the turbocharger itself (the heat built up from high-energy exhaust gases, the heat produced on the compressor side, and from the higher friction of the higher rpm it's turning when "working"). Just giving the turbo a little time to rest will prolong its life because it's not shut down with the higher internal temperatures and there's less chance of the oil remaining in the turbo being 'cooked'.

At least that's what I always understood to be the case. Either way, it's not like you need to let it idle for five minutes or anything. One could make an argument that you could/should do the same thing for a non-turbo engine for exactly the same reasons, but I doubt this method would have anywhere near the effect as the internal temperatures in an engine are much more tightly controlled than the temperatures inside a turbocharger.
yes and no. what mr monkey is saying is very true, and you are also correct, but a lot of turbo's use "fluid bearings" and if shut down before they have stopped spinning, the oil stops flowing and everything comes to a sudden stop. if you just shut it off after running the engine even moderately hard,its more common on large diesel engines but its not uncommon to hear the turbos "spooling down" im not a big fan of turbo's on consumer cars, i think they should be left to deisel and raceing applications, now super chargers are different to me, its worth the parasitic loss of the blower belt to not have to drive around "turbo lag"
 

d0uche_n0zzle

**Negative_Creep**
Sep 15, 2004
46,892
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#49
Use to drive a VW Bettle with the 1.8 liter turbo for work (company car) and that fucker was always in the shop for stoopid shit.

Now, I have an AWD Supercharged Toyota Previa and that fucker has no problems getting up to a hundred real quick.
 

Fruit Monkey

Don't stare at it eat it! P-1 In trainning
Oct 4, 2004
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#50
thank you fez and i never said 5 minute cool down you do in fact have to let it idle for a lil bit before you shut off any turbo. you are taking it to the extreme but this is wackbag and i should expect the 19 y/o to spout off.

I talking in terms of replacing the turbo after 35,000 or replacing it at 150,000 taking care of your shit makes it last longer PERIOD!
 
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