Movie Avengers: Infinity War, 4/27/18 and Avengers: Endgame, 4/26/19

Stormrider666

Hell is home.
Donator
Considering the immediate first thought when I thought of “worst battle” was the battle of Wakanda in Black Panther...

I rank the Airport Skirmish highest because it does the best job of framing the action with great character moments and humor. It’s long, but doesn’t feel as long as the others. It has a major advantage of being the only battle listed that doesn’t feature an army of mindless drones.

I put Avengers 1&2 right up there with it. Infinity War had the highest stakes and felt it, but the cutaways ultimately hurt it. Also, they sort of “lost the battle” so to speak when shit got real. Like what the hell was happening to everyone once Vision jumped out of the window? They never go back to the large scale battle.

Endgame is in a class by itself and not always in a good way. The Portals/Avengers Assemble scene may be the high water point for the entire MCU, but everything that follows...oof.

The stakes is why I ranked Infinity War number one. Thanos literally wiped his enemies off the face of the Earth.

The Airport Skirmish had a different set of stakes. They were personal. It was the culmination of issues that had been brewing for awhile and no matter who won, the team was never going to be the same again.

That's one of the reasons why I liked the Battle of Sokovia. For a moment, they were able to put those issues to the side and fight together as a team.


By Battle of Wakanda are we talking about at the end of IW or BP?
Infinity War.
 

LiddyRules

RIP King of France. Gutted Like Fish Under R Line
I think worthiness in the MCU is defined by Odin as purity of motivations. Hence why Thor initially failed to lift the hammer but it came to him after he acted selflessly to save New Mexico. Vision’s motivations were a Stark (pun intended) contrast to his creators and that made him worthy.

As for Cap, contrary to what Bill believes, I think his worthiness ebbs and flows. His sacrifice at the end of TFA made him as worthy as Thor, and that worthiness continued into TWS, but ebbed a bit over the course of that movie and Age of Ultron, as he began to question his own role in Hydra’s infiltration of Shield and his decision not to tell Tony the truth about his parents. This self doubt is why he couldn’t lift the hammer in Age of Ultron.

I think his worthiness continued to erode with his actions in CvS, and again - I’m not entirely sure what happened to make it return. Perhaps Stark forgiving him and seeing him worthy of the Shield erased all his self doubts, and doing “whatever it took” to save the snapped was enough. I don’t know.
First off, let me say, any answer I give is going to be wrong. Because there is no answer. There's no "Level Up! #Lootbox" moment that allows Captain to wield it. This is a ridiculous, shameful conversation and we should all feel bad about ourselves. Arguing about the severely abstract and undefined concept of worth as it relates to a super soldier wielding a magic hammer. And if you want to go with "meme moment" fine, but being mad at superhero movies for having a meme moment is like being mad at fish for swimming.

But to answer the question, we know that "worth" can waiver as it did with Thor. Maybe he could have done it at the end of TFA because that world was all he knew, but when the world expanded for him, he needed to experience the grey in order to become worthy. That's why I don't think he was ready in AoU, I think he needed the turmoil of Civil War to make him challenge his values in order and see where he stood to become "worthy." We don't know when he was able to lift it; that was the only time since AoU that he had the opportunity to. I also think it's telling that he's the only Avenger we see actually helping people as a man during the five years, I believe. Everyone else is "stop this disaster" or "quell this uprising," but he's the only one we see emotionally bonding with his fellow human. Maybe he reached a decision that "if I survive this, I'm going back to Peggy and I'm just going to live a good life" and the acceptance that he wouldn't change the future no matter how much he was tempted is what made him worthy.

This is a stupid fucking conversation. I hate all of you.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
First off, let me say, any answer I give is going to be wrong. Because there is no answer. There's no "Level Up! #Lootbox" moment that allows Captain to wield it. This is a ridiculous, shameful conversation and we should all feel bad about ourselves. Arguing about the severely abstract and undefined concept of worth as it relates to a super soldier wielding a magic hammer. And if you want to go with "meme moment" fine, but being mad at superhero movies for having a meme moment is like being mad at fish for swimming.

But to answer the question, we know that "worth" can waiver as it did with Thor. Maybe he could have done it at the end of TFA because that world was all he knew, but when the world expanded for him, he needed to experience the grey in order to become worthy. That's why I don't think he was ready in AoU, I think he needed the turmoil of Civil War to make him challenge his values in order and see where he stood to become "worthy." We don't know when he was able to lift it; that was the only time since AoU that he had the opportunity to. I also think it's telling that he's the only Avenger we see actually helping people as a man during the five years, I believe. Everyone else is "stop this disaster" or "quell this uprising," but he's the only one we see emotionally bonding with his fellow human. Maybe he reached a decision that "if I survive this, I'm going back to Peggy and I'm just going to live a good life" and the acceptance that he wouldn't change the future no matter how much he was tempted is what made him worthy.

This is a stupid fucking conversation. I hate all of you.
You asked the question and I gave you a sincere, well thought out answer. I have no idea why you’re so angry.

I came to peace with how much I should be ashamed of myself years ago. We’re still here, we may as well talk about something.

My point in bringing it up is that moment in Endgame should have been something that was built towards, and with everything else going on Cap’s character development was almost entirely ignored in the last two movies. It doesn’t make it a bad moment or Endgame a bad movie, but in my opinion the execution was well below the standard Marvel had set for themselves. It was there because they felt like they had to do it, not because it meant anything.
 

THE FEZ MAN

as a matter of fact i dont have 5$
I broke down and bought end game because I’m sick of waiting on it to go to rental, meh, $20 in the toilet, obviously I need to watch it again but I was kind of disappointed
 

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
I thought some folks would enjoy this, specifically @Pigdango. Though his complaints seem to be very different from yours, piggy, if I remember correctly.

 

THE FEZ MAN

as a matter of fact i dont have 5$
I just watched the infinity war and end game again (I watch movies till I know every line) I still don’t like end game
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
I thought some folks would enjoy this, specifically @Pigdango. Though his complaints seem to be very different from yours, piggy, if I remember correctly.

I've said that the biggest problem with Avengers Endgame was your pal Piggy. I'm not sure it was going to be possible to match the ending I had built up in my head. I haven't watched the whole video, but less than a minute in he says the movie pulls off the impossible by giving a satisfying ending to the 23 film Infinity Saga. I don't agree. I think Infinity War pulled off the impossible by bringing all the story threads and characters together into a cohesive narrative that not only has a satisfying ending, but is also the best cliffhanger in film history. (Yes, better than Empire)

Where Infinity War succeeded was in breaking it's massive cast into teams that never fully converged into one fighting unit before the snap. Endgame's best moment was of course when they finally got all those characters together on one stage. But the ensuing mess of a battle exposed the problem with such an unwieldy cast - it's impossible to service all those characters, and when you try, you get awkward moments like this:



I got out the ol' stopwatch to see how long the final battles were in the 4 Avengers films:

Avengers - 30 minutes 20 seconds from the time Iron Man shows back up in NYC to confront Loki until Cap says "We won."
Age of Ultron - 29 minutes, 47 seconds from the time Cap says "Grab what you need" until Vision says "I was born yesterday."
Infinity War - 43 minutes from the time Bucky says "Oh god" at Thanos' attacking ships until Cap says "Oh god."
Endgame - 28 minutes from the time Ant Man says "I think it worked" until Iron Man says "I am Iron Man." If you want to count the ensuing dusting and Iron Man's overlong death scene, you can tack on an additional 4 minutes for a total of 32.

So depending on how you view the beginning and the end of each battle, Endgame was definitely on the short side. Even if you give it 32 minutes, that's only 17.5% of Endgame's runtime, by far the lowest percentage of the 4 films.

And that in a nutshell is probably why Infinity War is more satisfying - that final battle had 10 more minutes of great character moments that were really lacking in Endgame's final battle. And it's those character moments that have made the MCU stand out among all the other films of this type. So to sort of shove those off to the side at the end felt a bit weird.
 

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
I've said that the biggest problem with Avengers Endgame was your pal Piggy. I'm not sure it was going to be possible to match the ending I had built up in my head. I haven't watched the whole video, but less than a minute in he says the movie pulls off the impossible by giving a satisfying ending to the 23 film Infinity Saga. I don't agree. I think Infinity War pulled off the impossible by bringing all the story threads and characters together into a cohesive narrative that not only has a satisfying ending, but is also the best cliffhanger in film history. (Yes, better than Empire)

Where Infinity War succeeded was in breaking it's massive cast into teams that never fully converged into one fighting unit before the snap. Endgame's best moment was of course when they finally got all those characters together on one stage. But the ensuing mess of a battle exposed the problem with such an unwieldy cast - it's impossible to service all those characters, and when you try, you get awkward moments like this:



I got out the ol' stopwatch to see how long the final battles were in the 4 Avengers films:

Avengers - 30 minutes 20 seconds from the time Iron Man shows back up in NYC to confront Loki until Cap says "We won."
Age of Ultron - 29 minutes, 47 seconds from the time Cap says "Grab what you need" until Vision says "I was born yesterday."
Infinity War - 43 minutes from the time Bucky says "Oh god" at Thanos' attacking ships until Cap says "Oh god."
Endgame - 28 minutes from the time Ant Man says "I think it worked" until Iron Man says "I am Iron Man." If you want to count the ensuing dusting and Iron Man's overlong death scene, you can tack on an additional 4 minutes for a total of 32.

So depending on how you view the beginning and the end of each battle, Endgame was definitely on the short side. Even if you give it 32 minutes, that's only 17.5% of Endgame's runtime, by far the lowest percentage of the 4 films.

And that in a nutshell is probably why Infinity War is more satisfying - that final battle had 10 more minutes of great character moments that were really lacking in Endgame's final battle. And it's those character moments that have made the MCU stand out among all the other films of this type. So to sort of shove those off to the side at the end felt a bit weird.
While I've always thought that Endgame is a very good movie, it falls short of great the more i look back on it and I could never figure out what bothered me. This guy finally showed me what it was.

It's the five year gap. He's right, so much of the character development I wanted to see happened in that gap. 2-3 movies that took place during that gap would not only have been compelling stories of their own, but would have made Endgame feel far less rushed and more impactful.

How much more impactful would Scarlet Witch yelling "YOU TOOK EVERYTHING FROM ME" have been if we had actually seen her struggles, her building anger?
Even more so, a final Iron Man movie focused on his realization that he was beaten, that he didn't have the will to be Iron Man anymore. Maybe actually see him fall into his famous alcoholism and Pepper bring him back from the brink.

And part of me hopes that She-Hulk will dive into that five years, showing's Banner become Professor Hulk along with her getting her powers. Even if it's in flashbacks.
 
Top