Bush's Immigration Bill

krisko

Mrs. Fuckin Funny
#1
Peggy Noonan (former speech writer for Reagan) had this to say:

The White House doesn't need its traditional supporters anymore, because its problems are way beyond being solved by the base. And the people in the administration don't even much like the base. Desperate straits have left them liberated, and they are acting out their disdain. Leading Democrats often think their base is slightly mad but at least their heart is in the right place. This White House thinks its base is stupid and that its heart is in the wrong place.

For almost three years, arguably longer, conservative Bush supporters have felt like sufferers of battered wife syndrome. You don't like endless gushing spending, the kind that assumes a high and unstoppable affluence will always exist, and the tax receipts will always flow in? Too bad! You don't like expanding governmental authority and power? Too bad. You think the war was wrong or is wrong? Too bad.

But on immigration it has changed from "Too bad" to "You're bad."

The president has taken to suggesting that opponents of his immigration bill are unpatriotic--they "don't want to do what's right for America." His ally Sen. Lindsey Graham has said, "We're gonna tell the bigots to shut up." On Fox last weekend he vowed to "push back." Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff suggested opponents would prefer illegal immigrants be killed; Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez said those who oppose the bill want "mass deportation." Former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson said those who oppose the bill are "anti-immigrant" and suggested they suffer from "rage" and "national chauvinism."

the full article is here: http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/

How do Republicans of the bag feel about this? Democrats? What the hell is going on with the world?!
 
#2
I read this article a few days ago. It perfectly describes how I've felt for the last few years. This country is being sold out by both parties.
 
#3
Well well. Interesting times we live in. What's that old saying..

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."

All the people who shouted at those of us who merely questioned what was going on, and called us unpatriotic, and liberals, and trash, and crazy. And your fervor especially over things like immigration. Now it's your turn.

Pardon me while I sit on the sidelines.
 

Vyce

Light-skinned, with no Negro dialect.
#4
I wrote a longish piece about this bill elsewhere, but I'll reprint it here.

This bill is just fucking horrible. It's going to be a failure of absolutely epic proportions.

Republicans are digging their own graves with it. Here's the situation as it stands for them right now:

1. They can reject this bill, go tough on immigration, and be painted as bigots and racists, lose "potential" voters (but not really) in the Latin community, but please their base and please quite a few independents and even Democrats by making sure that whatever bill they pass actually secures the border, which is the key issue for everyone. This is looking increasingly unlikely.

or

2. They can ram this amnesty bill through, still be painted as bigots and racists for not giving immigrants even MORE, definitely alienate their base for quite some time to come, and more than likely doom this country to a permanent Democrat majority once 20 million immigrants (probably a *conservative* estimate when it's all said and done) come here and start voting Democrat thanks to liberals and the brand new welfare system they'll create for the latinos to buy their votes.

The ultimate motive, I am at least to suppose (because it's the ONLY rational explanation for Republican madness in this), for this bill is to persuade present and future Latino voters that Republicans have, in the words of Don Corleone, "done them a service" for which they should consider voting GOP. But we know that's not going to be happening any damn way, so I'm left wondering what the hell they're all thinking. The more likely answer, and it deeply saddens me to say this, is that Republicans are just COMPLETELY selling out the future of this country to please big business NOW. The lack of foresight involved in this is staggering. Don't let this fucking NONSENSE about "oh, illegals will be paying taxes now, so it'll all even out" fool you, we're going to be in dire straits in years to come if this passes. If you're a relatively young man like me, fucking kiss social security goodbye - it was in the shitter before now, and if amnesty passes, it's fucking GONE by the time you or I reach retirement age. There won't be a dime available to be paid out once you factor in another 20+ million immigrants we have to pay for.

If this bill passes, here's what's going to happen for the GOP. They can pretty much write 2008 off, at least in terms of re-taking Congress, because their base will be too disgusted with them to allow them to succeed in that venture. The GOP might have a shot at winning the White House, perhaps particularly if the eventual GOP nominee was critical of this bill. The one good thing about this legislation is that if it passes, McCain is DOA. He's already reaping what he's sown alrady. In the long-term, Republicans are quite possibly looking at permanent minority status within just a couple decades.

It will be bitterly ironic, since this bill is supposed to be one of the brighter spots of Bush's legacy after the shadow of Iraq, if this amnesty legislation from Bush actually winds up strangling his own party to its death or otherwise crippling it.
 

Larz

****Self-Banned****
It's My Birthday!
#5
The more likely answer, and it deeply saddens me to say this, is that Republicans are just COMPLETELY selling out the future of this country to please big business NOW.
Well I can tell you first hand that the suits at my engineering firm are absolutely giddy over the prospect of adding 12 million legal workers to the labor force. The VP of the construction division has been boasting about how he was part of an industry group that lobbied for this legislation. Since I mainly sit behind a computer running structural analysis simulations I don't get to visit work sites regularly, but from what I've seen they don't hire illegals so this is a very very big deal.

Myself I dunno what to make of it. Legit companies in labor intensive industries will be reaping huge rewards from this bill and my usual line of reasoning is "good for business=good for the economy=good for the country." But as a fucking foreigner that had to go through the citizenship process it stinks. Maybe the silver lining is that this will be the deathknell for social security/medicare. I've only been in the workforce a year so hopefully I won't pay in too much before entitlement programs get obliterated.
 

Glenn Dandy

THE ONLY WHITE PRESIDENT LEFT.
#6
theres no discussion needed go to you tube.... you'll find the charts read that iv immigration isnt halted your looking at Tijuana in ten tears.

do something now or we are through.
even the blacks will be getting fucked up by mexicans.
 

Schmed

I'm a corpse without a soul...
#7
12Million is actually 20-30Million which in 5 years will = 100MM (family members included), which will turn the US into 3rd world Mexico II. I don't understand how Ted Kennedy rubs elbows with La Raza (The Race), a brown supremacist group. Imagine if an Irish or Italian group formed "The Race", we would be labeled bigots and run outta town.

I'm tired of the Larry Ellison's and William Gates' who say we do not have enough workers, train Americans to do American jobs.

What happened to "A government for the people, by the people". We are living in a Bush dictatorship. He is the worst president this country has ever had (Next to Jimmy Carter), and I'm a independent conservative.
 

Larz

****Self-Banned****
It's My Birthday!
#8
I'm tired of the Larry Ellison's and William Gates' who say we do not have enough workers, train Americans to do American jobs.
And prosecute businesses (and individuals) that hire illegals, whether they do it knowingly or not. Put a bounty on them, say $1000 per illegal and have the money come out of the convicted offender's pocket as well as repatriation costs. Treat it like a drug offense where assets are confiscated and it stops being cost effective for employers.
 

Bill

Registered User
#9
And prosecute businesses (and individuals) that hire illegals, whether they do it knowingly or not. Put a bounty on them, say $1000 per illegal
That's not nearly a big enough penalty. Companies save far more than $1,000 per illegal that they have working for them. The penalty has to be severe in order for it not to be worth the risk to hire illegal immigrants.

Make it 1 year mandatory jail time for the immediate supervisor, HR director (or the person in charge of HR) , and the CEO (the highest ranking person) of any company for every illegal immigrant working for them.

Then watch how quickly the illegal immigrants move back to their own countries when nobody will hire them.
 

TrybalRage

Registered User
#10
I just love how the so-called "top tier" republican candidates are all courting hispanics to get their vote. Hell, Romney has campaign ads in spanish.

It's all one party anymore.
 

Larz

****Self-Banned****
It's My Birthday!
#11
The $1000 bounty thing is more about encouraging people to report on businesses and individuals that use Illegals in addition to other financial penalties + jail time. People would think twice about having a mexican cut their lawn if they knew their neighbors might rat them out.

I could see a cottage industry spring up around something like this. Again the reward would come straight from confiscated property/money so zero cost to tax payers.
 

Bill

Registered User
#12
Lars,
Apparently, I mis-read your post before replying. At first, I thought that you were advocating the the penalty for hiring illegals should be $1,000 per illegal.

Now that I realize that you're really advocating a $1,000 reward for reporting people or companies who hire illegals, I agree with you.

However, one problem with both of our "plans" has to do with who is actually doing the hiring. Using your mowing the lawn example, the guy that I hire to cut my lawn is legally in the country (I think, for sake of discussion, lets say that he is). About half of the time he has someone helping him. I haven't hired the helper, he has. Who would be liable if it turned out that the helper is an illegal immigrant? IMO, it should be the guy that I hired who is responsible, because the helper is really working for the guy that I've hired.

I would assume that this would be the case for virtually everyone who hires someone to cut their lawn. They hire a landscaping company. The landscaping company hires the workers.
 

Larz

****Self-Banned****
It's My Birthday!
#13
Lars,
Who would be liable if it turned out that the helper is an illegal immigrant? IMO, it should be the guy that I hired who is responsible, because the helper is really working for the guy that I've hired.

I would assume that this would be the case for virtually everyone who hires someone to cut their lawn. They hire a landscaping company. The landscaping company hires the workers.
I guess it would depend on the circumstances... but look at it like this.

Wouldn't the landscaping company also think twice knowing there are big $$$ rewards for information leading to convictions? Lets say you come home as the illegal is in the process of cutting your lawn. you walk up and start questioning him...

Doesn't speak English,
No ID
You say to yourself hey... I'll report the fuck and possibly pocket a grand.

I really think this kind of plan could go a long way towards changing how Legit businesses add up the risk/reward of hiring illegals.
 

FellowTraveler

Frank Reynolds is my hero
It's My Birthday!
#14
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff suggested opponents would prefer illegal immigrants be killed
Now this is an idea that I can get behind. Fucking illegals have taken over my hometown. Nothing is worse then getting hit in quarter panel and watching a whole fucking car load of Mexicans get out of the car and take off running. The license plate was stolen so I couldn't find who hit me and I had to eat the whole cost. of repair. Fuck all of them.
 

Larz

****Self-Banned****
It's My Birthday!
#15
Nothing is worse then getting hit in quarter panel and watching a whole fucking car load of Mexicans get out of the car and take off running.

Same exact shit happened to me 6 months ago. Luckily my car is a piece of crap, normally I drive my gf's Range Rover and would have recieved a swift kick in the nuts.
 

JoeyDVDZ

Well-Known Member
Donator
#16
There was something on News 12 NJ before about something called Project "return to sender" where they're scooping up illegals and shipping them all back, no questions asked.... It was glorious. :)
 

Deadbent

You can go fuck.
#17
From lifelong first hand exposure, mainly the problem with mexican immigrants is their unwillingness to assimilate and integrate into american culture.
They despise it.

Anywhere they go, they must make where they're at "mexico".
They make it "mexico" by refusing to adopt american culture, language, laws, and social values.

There's no problem with the mexican immigrant who wants to come here, learn the language, go to a ballgame, contribute to society, eat fucking apple pie, wave an American Flag on the 4th of july and vote. But let me tell you this... there aren't any of those mexican immigrants...none. And if there ARE any... the disparity between them and the others is just too hard to explain with words.

See?...
The true majority, if not 95% of the mexican immigrants who want to come here are strictly on the pretense of draining american jobs, taking their paychecks, and funnelling it back to mexico in order to better their family over there, while funding more illegals to be brought in.

Not to mention, having no respect for the land, laws of it, the language, or its native people really make me unlikely to say "welcome to my country javier."

Thusly, when Glenn says there are charts and other pieces of substantial evidence to indicate a surge of mexican immigrants will lead to a giant Tijuana, he's actually RIGHT. :p



If one is unaware, usually this is the scheme for all mexican immigrants in my area:

An illegal will get here and join up in a household of other illegals, anywhere from 10 to 50 in a house. Sometimes there are more than one of these houses per block. Sometimes there are many.
These houses are actually "bought" with loans from bank of america, who give out home loans to people without social security numbers; immigrants and illegals. The immigrants SWEAR by it.
The loan is never intended to be paid back. When it is defaulted on, the person it was issued to goes back to mexico, a new person is elected to register for a new home loan, and all illegals simply pick up, and move locations repeating the process. (Take one guess how those home loans roll downhill and eventually get "paid" for, too. You'd win if you said " by anyone who owns a home, or ever wants to buy one, or anyone with a second mortgage" Basically anyone who LEGALLY lives here, heh.)

Upon reaching the illegal immigrant households...
All illegals are outfitted with jobs, off the books. (or worse, they just lay on their lawn 20 hours per day with cases of cheap beer and no jobs. Those are the illegals who do petty crimes, or are employed by crime rings who dabble in everything from coke sales to fake ID sales, if you were wondering.
Those modello cases don't buy themselves.)

All illegals pay per week for rent in this house, though. One way or the other.
The head of their operation collects rent, usually 50 dollars per week from each head.
Follow me here, this is where it starts getting interesting, too.
if you have 20 people in the house, and collect 50 per week from them, and your house-note is only 800-1000 a month... that's a lot of extra *FREE* money over the course of a year, no? Maybe a total of 40-50 grand. Tax-free. Nice job, pedro! That's probably more than most people make working hard in jobs that help society function.

(Not to mention : That's a lot of property tax being defrauded on as well. Compare the 4000 dollars a household of 4 might have to pay for their annual property tax, to the 4000 dollars an immigrant household of 25 would have to pay right across the street. If it is ever paid at all.
See how this is starting to roll downhill more and more? And guess who really pays for that, too?

In any regard,
The extra money accrued from the rent scheme is sent back to mexico, where it usually is given to a "coyote", someone paid to haul illegals into the country.
And more illegals are brought in with very the intention of perpetuating this scheme.

Meanwhile we will continue to have illegal mexican aliens doing their part towards deflating the economy, lowering property values, making smarter illegals virtually rich, and your legislature is perfectly okay with it. Why?...

You answer that for yourself.
 

HummerTuesdays

Another girrrrl!!!
#18
Can someone please explain to me why, on an I-129 (Petition for a Nonimmigrant Worker) we have to provide the gross & net annual income of the company said immigrant is going to work for? I find that to be an invasion of privacy by the Dept of Homeland Security. What difference does it fucking make? How about we just give the DHS our tax ID number and let them talk to the IRS about whether we're a legitimate business? Besides, how would the DHS know whether what we put down is accurate?
 
#19
I think the contractor should be liable. It is too difficult to prove intent or knowledge with the hirer of the contractor.

1st time offense: $1000 bounty, $4000 to pay for future audits of the company

2nd time offense: $30000 fine, $10000 to pay for future audits.
 

Bill

Registered User
#20
See?...
The true majority, if not 95% of the mexican immigrants who want to come here are strictly on the pretense of draining american jobs, taking their paychecks, and funnelling it back to mexico in order to better their family over there, while funding more illegals to be brought in.
True. But to some extent, that's because a single family member is here, attempting to support his family, which is still in Mexico. If the entire family were here, would things change?

You don't see as much of this with legal immigrants. Is that because they've made the decision that the US is going to be thier home forever, while the illegal immigrant is trying to make as much money as possible before being sent back home?

I don't know the answers to this. Just throwing out possibilities.
 

Larz

****Self-Banned****
It's My Birthday!
#21
Meanwhile we will continue to have illegal mexican aliens doing their part towards deflating the economy, lowering property values, making smarter illegals virtually rich, and your legislature is perfectly okay with it. Why?...

You answer that for yourself.
Just don't forget someone has to hire em, you make it seem like all they have to do is sneak into the country and wave their hands singin la cookaracha and the money suddenly appears.

I just came back from the laundry room in my building and it was packed with mexican maids. I felt like an asshole for bein a white male washing my own clothes in a room full of illegals. You're almost an idiot for not hiring em to do your errands and other shit Jobs.
 

Deadbent

You can go fuck.
#22
Just don't forget someone has to hire em, you make it seem like all they have to do is sneak into the country and wave their hands singin la cookaracha and the money suddenly appears.

By and large, thats mostly what they have to do. Believe it or not.
If you consider them coming to, and further populating already mexican-heavy areas, there usually are jobs practically waiting for them, or anyone brown skinned willing to shovel enough shit for shit pay.

To every extent, I agree blame also falls on employers who accept illegals into their enterprises.
But in my area, for every white business owner who hires one illegal, there are 5 more mexican owned places hiring 25 illegals. The trained eye can tell where the majority of the problem really stems.

That seems to be consistent with what I see here in Chicago.
It could be different in your area, hopefully it is, and for the better.
If it isn't as bad as it is here... just give it time.
 

Larz

****Self-Banned****
It's My Birthday!
#23
But in my area, for every white business owner who hires one illegal, there are 5 more mexican owned places hiring 25 illegals. The trained eye can tell where the majority of the problem really stems.
.
Yeah I can see what ya mean. In Manhattan they're mostly working as domestic help, kitchen staff in restaurants, or doin deliveries. Far as I know there aren't any mexican enclaves in the city. The bodegas on the lower east side are usually run by dominicans or puerto ricans but they seem to be dying out. Victims of the insane property values it seems.
 
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