Florida has decided to treat evolution as a "maybe"

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
#1
Metro News Source:
>>Florida Board Of Education Rules On Evolution In The Classroom

(Tallahassee, FL) -- Florida students will now have to make up their own minds about the origin of man. Florida's Board of Education has opted to teach students "A" theory of evolution as opposed to evolution as a scientific fact or a scientific theory. The decision follows a heated debate between residents who wanted Charles Darwin's theory of evolution taught in public schools and those who said the science is flawed. Board member Phoebe Raulerson said of the decision, quote, "I'm not saying it's a fact or not a fact. I'm saying that it is open to further discussion.
Doomed, fucking doomed.
 

Hudson

Supreme Champion!!!!!
Donator
#2
So tell me..EXACTLY how many kids are there in Florida trying to fit condoms over their foreheads to be Space Commanders?????!!!!!
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot In The Whole Galaxy
#3
Why can't they just accept the facts? God said "BOP" and there we were.
 
#4
Well, evolution is still just a theory. So technically it is only a maybe, albeit a scientific maybe.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
#5
Well, evolution is still just a theory. So technically it is only a maybe, albeit a scientific maybe.
Gravity is only a theory too... so if you throw a brick straight up in the air, maybe it won't land on your head.

We should teach our children the alternative theory of gravity... intelligent falling.
 
#6
Gravity is only a theory too... so if you throw a brick straight up in the air, maybe it won't land on your head.

We should teach our children the alternative theory of gravity... intelligent falling.


First of all, Gravity is a LAW, not a theory. Thanks for playing.

Secondly, i am not advocating the Bible version of things or the "intelligent" version of things.

I was just saying Evolution is still a theory.

In my personal opinion we just got lucky. It puts me more in line with the evolutionists.
 

Plunkies

Registered User
#8
I was just saying Evolution is still a theory.
I can't believe there are adults living in this country who don't understand what a scientific theory is. Evolution is both fact and theory.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
#9
First of all, Gravity is a LAW, not a theory. Thanks for playing.


Sorry... it's a theory.

As long as alternative theories to prevailing theories exist, no matter how far-fetched or dubious they may be, a theory cannot be considered a LAW.

And alternative gravitational theories do exist... ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous:

-Tensor-vector-scalar gravity
-Nonsymmetric gravitational theory
-Rosen bi-metric theory
-Brans-Dicke theory

My personal favorite alternative gravity theory barking moonbat is the Time Cube guy:

http://www.timecube.com/

Jew owners of religious/
academic christianity --
have enslaved your ass,
and you are too stupid
to know you are a slave
to plunder profiteers of
Earth's Cubic Nature.
:icon_lol:

I love that guy. He rocks!

Secondly, i am not advocating the Bible version of things or the "intelligent" version of things.

I was just saying Evolution is still a theory.

In my personal opinion we just got lucky. It puts me more in line with the evolutionists.
Luck is not a factor in evolutionary theory, so if you think human beings exist, or evolved as we did, because we won some sort of cosmic lottery, then you aren't "in line" with the evolutionists.
 

Vyce

Light-skinned, with no Negro dialect.
#10
The eternal debate rages again.

So I'll say this: science (of which evolution is a part of) and religion CAN actually co-exist. They're not mutually exclusive. It's not all or nothing. You can believe in evolution, AND believe in a higher power / supreme intelligence.

Because getting into pissing contests about whether evolution is real or not is just silly. It's entirely missing the point of one's faith in a creator, in "God", especially the judeo-christian God. It's not REALLY about whether God created all of creation within six days; what's important is the belief that God COULD have done it, if God so chose to do so.

The actual method in which our universe, and our species, came about, is almost an after-thought.
 

Plunkies

Registered User
#11
As long as alternative theories to prevailing theories exist, no matter how far-fetched or dubious they may be, a theory cannot be considered a LAW.
That's also untrue. A theory doesn't become a law. A law doesn't become a theory. Both are generally accepted as true scientifically. A law explains what happens, a theory explains why it happens. The main difference is that a theory is more complex and can be improved upon while a law is simple and concrete. The details within the theory of evolution can be changed as evidence is continuously gathered, but the ultimate truth of the theory, that evolution occurred, will always remain the same.

Gravity is both, a law and a theory. The law is a simple, universal fact. The theory of gravity (Theory of relativity) expands upon the law, adding to it and explaining why it works.
 

VMS

Victim of high standards and low personal skills.
#12
That's also untrue. A theory doesn't become a law. A law doesn't become a theory. Both are generally accepted as true scientifically. A law explains what happens, a theory explains why it happens. The main difference is that a theory is more complex and can be improved upon while a law is simple and concrete. The details within the theory of evolution can be changed as evidence is continuously gathered, but the ultimate truth of the theory, that evolution occurred, will always remain the same.
But for the Theory of Evolution (which I essentially believe, BTW) to become a "Law", it needs to be PROVABLE. You need to be able to TEST the theory.

Since the major question we're dealing with respect to evolution is "how did we get here?", it's going to stay a theory unless/until someone invents a time periscope that allows us to look back into time and see exactly what happened. Because without that time periscope we cannot "test" the theory going backwards.

Even if the human species somehow stays around for another billion years and is able to record other species (and ourselves...) evolving into other species, that does NOT essentially put into stone the answer of "how did we get here?" as "evolution" unless and until we invent that time periscope.

The assumptions inherent in evolution make sense. They really, really do, just as the assumptions built into the Big Bang Theory, the theories on how our solar system was formed, etc. The assumptions are, for one, that the physical laws we see today were essentially constant throughout the billions of years before today. But there's no way for us to test that assumption.

The FIRST characteristic of a good scientist is the ability to say "I don't know anything." Even the most brilliant, Nobel prize winning scientist needs to be able to say that, but then move on with "... but I think this is the way things are, and it seems to work."

We don't KNOW that evolution was how we got here. But the parts of the theory of evolution seem to essentially work, and it's a good working theory. Dogma is the enemy of science. Even the dogma of believing totally in science. Of course, teaching that particular mindset to a bunch of grade school kids is the next best thing to futile, just as trying to explain that to this crowd...
:action-sm
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
#13
Believe in whatever All Powerful Sky Daddy you want to... just keep it out of the public school science classrooms.

If you think the evolutionary theory is wrong or incomplete, or if you think you've got a better idea, then go ahead and put it up for debate in a scientific journal, NOT in a 5th grade biology classroom. When the fuck did public grammar school become the proper forum for entertaining wildly speculative notions pretending to be science?

If you want your kids to learn fairy tales rather than real science, then send them to some religious brainwashing institution... and do it on your own dime.

Don't expect me to pay for the mis-education of your children. It's bad enough that I'm going to have to live in the world with their mis-informed asses after they graduate, but asking me to pay for the furtherance of their ignorance? Sorry... that's just too much to ask.

...edited to add...

Let me ask a simple question to anyone who even sorta buys into the "Godidit!" theory of human existence/evolution...

Why won't this work?...

"God is the creator, and evolution is His process."

Why is that not good enough?
 

BlackNinja

How'd your parents die?
#14
But for the Theory of Evolution (which I essentially believe, BTW) to become a "Law", it needs to be PROVABLE. You need to be able to TEST the theory.

Since the major question we're dealing with respect to evolution is "how did we get here?", it's going to stay a theory unless/until someone invents a time periscope that allows us to look back into time and see exactly what happened. Because without that time periscope we cannot "test" the theory going backwards.

Even if the human species somehow stays around for another billion years and is able to record other species (and ourselves...) evolving into other species, that does NOT essentially put into stone the answer of "how did we get here?" as "evolution" unless and until we invent that time periscope.
evolution is probably as close to a law, without actually becoming a law as we can get. just take a look at staphylococcus infections. 50-60 years ago, you could treat them with plain old Penicillin G/V. over 95% of all strains are resistant now.

this is all just very disappointing and makes me(should i decide to have kids) not want my kids in their schools
 

VMS

Victim of high standards and low personal skills.
#15
You see, just from the quotes in that article I'm not sure which direction the Florida Board of Education is going with this.

Just using the direct quotes used in that blurb (not the reporter's own definition of what's happening), it's quite possible that the FL BOE is trying to figure out a way to teach their students how to really "think" scientifically. I think it would be a lost hope, but there's nothing to say the BOE isn't trying.

And I also think it's quite possible for the reporter with the "Evolution is FACT!" mindset to fuck up what was happening, if in fact that's what the BOE was trying to do.

I've got a good buddy who got his Masters in Geology from Texas A&M. Pretty smart guy, and he'd be the FIRST person to tell you that plate tectonic theory isn't exactly locked in stone, and there's a HELL of a lot more practical and direct data on tectonics than there is on evolution.

Now, do religious nuts fuck things up with the "it's only a theory" shit? Well, sure. Saying something is "only" a theory as a way to dismiss it is even more ridiculous than saying the theory is a "fact" or "law".

Scientific theory is much more nuanced and delicate than most people think. I know a lot of people who went into the hard sciences because they wanted to get away from the "squishy" stuff like Psychology, Political Science, Anthropology or Sociology. The good ones quickly realize that even the "hard" sciences are damned "squishy", in mindset if nothing else.
 

Vyce

Light-skinned, with no Negro dialect.
#16
Why won't this work?...

"God is the creator, and evolution is His process."

Why is that not good enough?
That is exactly what I was alluding to in my earlier post.

Although in a far less patronizing manner, and without any childish references to a 'sky daddy' to demean those of a religious faith, even though I feel they're misguided.
 

Goober

AKA Eqyptian Teabag the Friendly Arab
#17
Of course evolution is treated as a 'maybe' in Florida. Those people do not know for sure, because they have yet to evolve.
 

VMS

Victim of high standards and low personal skills.
#18
evolution is probably as close to a law, without actually becoming a law as we can get. just take a look at staphylococcus infections. 50-60 years ago, you could treat them with plain old Penicillin G/V. over 95% of all strains are resistant now.
But does it work backwards? I believe it probably does, but I'm not going to sit here and say I KNOW this is how things happened.

That's the important word in all this: "probably". When your kid asks you if evolution is how we got here, the honest answer is, "Probably. I think so, and it's the theory that best fits the known facts, but the truth is that we'll never know. And it's very useful for figuring things out going forward." Of course, that's a hell of a lot more complicated than a quick, "Yes, now quit bothering me."

Shit, it's not like 99% of the people who "believe in evolution" aren't fucking retards about evolution themselves, and can't figure shit out about it. What we as a society consider "good" or "evolved", nature doesn't give a shit about. Survival/non-survival is all that really matters. Intelligence is/was a survival trait, but if being a pudding head became a survival trait tomorrow that's what we would be "selected" for.

this is all just very disappointing and makes me(should i decide to have kids) not want my kids in their schools
So what's your alternative? Catholic school? Home schooling?

And I'm not convinced, from that little blurb, that what the reporter says is what's actually happening. If a BoE tried to impose a scientifically nuanced teaching of evolution, that's pretty much what the typical reporter's blurb would look like.

I'm not saying that the BoE ISN'T trying to teach creationism. I'm saying I don't know.
:icon_mrgr
 

VMS

Victim of high standards and low personal skills.
#19
Of course evolution is treated as a 'maybe' in Florida. Those people do not know for sure, because they have yet to evolve.
^^^^ doesn't get the Theory of Evolution.

Somebody here assigns social values to survival values, and calls them "evolution". Which has some selective validity within his particular society, but misses the point with respect to the Theory of Evolution.
:icon_mrgr
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
#20
That is exactly what I was alluding to in my earlier post.

Although in a far less patronizing manner, and without any childish references to a 'sky daddy' to demean those of a religious faith, even though I feel they're misguided.
Demeaning? You want to see demeaning?

How about this?...

http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2008/01/banned-myspace-deletes-largest-atheist.html

Thursday, 31 January 2008
Banned: MySpace deletes world's largest atheist group

Social networking site MySpace, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation, has sparked controversy by deleting the world's largest online atheist group following complaints from people who find atheism "offensive".

"Atheist and Agnostic Group" boasted 35,000 members until it was deleted on 1 January for the third time in as many years. It was founded in 2004 by Bryan Pesta, an assistant professor at Cleveland University who established it as a social network "specifically for godless people."

The group was closed down for the first time two years ago after an organised campaign by Christians persuaded MySpace to delete it. It was eventually restored and MySpace promised to protect it. This time, despite a petition from 500 users and repeated emails to customer services, MySpace seems reluctant to reverse its actions.
Or how about this?...

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

George W. Bush August 27, 1987
Yeah... whatever you do, don't go patronizing or demeaning those of religious faith... that would just be wrong. They, after all, have nothing but respect for your right NOT to believe.
 

Vyce

Light-skinned, with no Negro dialect.
#21
Yeah... whatever you do, don't go patronizing or demeaning those of religious faith... that would just be wrong. They, after all, have nothing but respect for your right NOT to believe.
I do hope that you at least appreciate the irony that your attitudes towards religious folks for their intolerance of opposing viewpoints is, in and of itself, a form of the very same intolerance.
 

Goober

AKA Eqyptian Teabag the Friendly Arab
#22
^^^^ doesn't get the Theory of Evolution.

Somebody here assigns social values to survival values, and calls them "evolution". Which has some selective validity within his particular society, but misses the point with respect to the Theory of Evolution.
:icon_mrgr
I was not assigning anything you cunt. I was making a awful joke.
 

Plunkies

Registered User
#23
But for the Theory of Evolution (which I essentially believe, BTW) to become a "Law", it needs to be PROVABLE. You need to be able to TEST the theory.
You're not listening.

THEORIES DO NOT BECOME LAWS.

And you're wrong. Evolution is refutable in principle and makes testable predictions.

evolution is probably as close to a law, without actually becoming a law as we can get. just take a look at staphylococcus infections. 50-60 years ago, you could treat them with plain old Penicillin G/V. over 95% of all strains are resistant now.

this is all just very disappointing and makes me(should i decide to have kids) not want my kids in their schools
Again. Theories don't be come laws. And evolution is no where close to a law. It's way too complex.

That's the important word in all this: "probably". When your kid asks you if evolution is how we got here, the honest answer is, "Probably. I think so, and it's the theory that best fits the known facts, but the truth is that we'll never know.
Then you'd have to answer "probably" for everything. Nothing can be proven with absolute certainty. Evolution has been proven to an extremely high degree of certainty however, and considering it to be anything other than fact is ignorant.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
#24
I do hope that you at least appreciate the irony that your attitudes towards religious folks for their intolerance of opposing viewpoints is, in and of itself, a form of the very same intolerance.
Nope... I'm nothing but tolerant of religious viewpoints. I would (and have) put my life in jeopardy defending the right of every American citizen to believe in whatever religious faith they so choose.

I am not "offended" by the religious beliefs of others, and I would never suggest that another person's religious viewpoints should be censored, nor would I insist that a person should be disqualified for American citizenship based upon their religious beliefs.... THAT would be intolerant.

"Attitudes" and opinions don't equal intolerance... that's just PC bullshit. As long as George W. doesn't try to deny, or take away, the rights and/or citizenship of atheists, then I could give a fuck what that dumb fuck's attitude is towards atheists.

Intolerant actions equal intolerance. Like these here...

* North Carolina's Constitution of 1971 (Article 6, Section 8) states: "Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God...."[24]. This was challenged and overturned by Voswinkel v. Hunt (1979).

* South Carolina's Constitution of 2006 (Article 6, Section 2) states: "Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office. No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."[25]

* Tennessee's Constitution/Bill of Rights (Article 9, Section 2) states: "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."[26]

* Texas' Constitution: The Bill of Rights (Article I, Section 4) last amended on September 13, 2003 states that an official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."[27]
 

Kris_LTRMa

LoseTheRadio.net's Ma
#25
You guys are making a big to-do over this when it's not really one. They're not teaching it as "fact", they are teaching it as a "theory", which it is. I don't know what schools you attended but at my Catholic high school, we studied Darwin's Theory of Evolution in biology class. It was not taught as a theology course, it was not taught as an alternative to the Creationist Theory, it was taught as part of 'we're not saying this is fact, but there are other ideas in the world & we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand & ignore them'.

This is from the Daytona News-Journal:
But board member Phoebe Raulerson defended the use of the word "theory" and said all parts of evolution have not been proved. She said the scientific process should encourage students to ask questions and seek facts.
what's wrong with a kid being able to ask questions and seek facts? Isn't that what education is supposed to encourage?
 
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