Discussion in 'Current Events' started by BIV, Feb 20, 2008.
Metro News Source:
Doomed, fucking doomed.
So tell me..EXACTLY how many kids are there in Florida trying to fit condoms over their foreheads to be Space Commanders?????!!!!!
Why can't they just accept the facts? God said "BOP" and there we were.
Well, evolution is still just a theory. So technically it is only a maybe, albeit a scientific maybe.
Gravity is only a theory too... so if you throw a brick straight up in the air, maybe it won't land on your head.
We should teach our children the alternative theory of gravity... intelligent falling.
First of all, Gravity is a LAW, not a theory. Thanks for playing.
Secondly, i am not advocating the Bible version of things or the "intelligent" version of things.
I was just saying Evolution is still a theory.
In my personal opinion we just got lucky. It puts me more in line with the evolutionists.
Are you serious with that comment?
I can't believe there are adults living in this country who don't understand what a scientific theory is. Evolution is both fact and theory.
Sorry... it's a theory.
As long as alternative theories to prevailing theories exist, no matter how far-fetched or dubious they may be, a theory cannot be considered a LAW.
And alternative gravitational theories do exist... ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous:
-Nonsymmetric gravitational theory
-Rosen bi-metric theory
My personal favorite alternative gravity theory barking moonbat is the Time Cube guy:
I love that guy. He rocks!
Luck is not a factor in evolutionary theory, so if you think human beings exist, or evolved as we did, because we won some sort of cosmic lottery, then you aren't "in line" with the evolutionists.
The eternal debate rages again.
So I'll say this: science (of which evolution is a part of) and religion CAN actually co-exist. They're not mutually exclusive. It's not all or nothing. You can believe in evolution, AND believe in a higher power / supreme intelligence.
Because getting into pissing contests about whether evolution is real or not is just silly. It's entirely missing the point of one's faith in a creator, in "God", especially the judeo-christian God. It's not REALLY about whether God created all of creation within six days; what's important is the belief that God COULD have done it, if God so chose to do so.
The actual method in which our universe, and our species, came about, is almost an after-thought.
That's also untrue. A theory doesn't become a law. A law doesn't become a theory. Both are generally accepted as true scientifically. A law explains what happens, a theory explains why it happens. The main difference is that a theory is more complex and can be improved upon while a law is simple and concrete. The details within the theory of evolution can be changed as evidence is continuously gathered, but the ultimate truth of the theory, that evolution occurred, will always remain the same.
Gravity is both, a law and a theory. The law is a simple, universal fact. The theory of gravity (Theory of relativity) expands upon the law, adding to it and explaining why it works.
But for the Theory of Evolution (which I essentially believe, BTW) to become a "Law", it needs to be PROVABLE. You need to be able to TEST the theory.
Since the major question we're dealing with respect to evolution is "how did we get here?", it's going to stay a theory unless/until someone invents a time periscope that allows us to look back into time and see exactly what happened. Because without that time periscope we cannot "test" the theory going backwards.
Even if the human species somehow stays around for another billion years and is able to record other species (and ourselves...) evolving into other species, that does NOT essentially put into stone the answer of "how did we get here?" as "evolution" unless and until we invent that time periscope.
The assumptions inherent in evolution make sense. They really, really do, just as the assumptions built into the Big Bang Theory, the theories on how our solar system was formed, etc. The assumptions are, for one, that the physical laws we see today were essentially constant throughout the billions of years before today. But there's no way for us to test that assumption.
The FIRST characteristic of a good scientist is the ability to say "I don't know anything." Even the most brilliant, Nobel prize winning scientist needs to be able to say that, but then move on with "... but I think this is the way things are, and it seems to work."
We don't KNOW that evolution was how we got here. But the parts of the theory of evolution seem to essentially work, and it's a good working theory. Dogma is the enemy of science. Even the dogma of believing totally in science. Of course, teaching that particular mindset to a bunch of grade school kids is the next best thing to futile, just as trying to explain that to this crowd...
Believe in whatever All Powerful Sky Daddy you want to... just keep it out of the public school science classrooms.
If you think the evolutionary theory is wrong or incomplete, or if you think you've got a better idea, then go ahead and put it up for debate in a scientific journal, NOT in a 5th grade biology classroom. When the fuck did public grammar school become the proper forum for entertaining wildly speculative notions pretending to be science?
If you want your kids to learn fairy tales rather than real science, then send them to some religious brainwashing institution... and do it on your own dime.
Don't expect me to pay for the mis-education of your children. It's bad enough that I'm going to have to live in the world with their mis-informed asses after they graduate, but asking me to pay for the furtherance of their ignorance? Sorry... that's just too much to ask.
...edited to add...
Let me ask a simple question to anyone who even sorta buys into the "Godidit!" theory of human existence/evolution...
Why won't this work?...
"God is the creator, and evolution is His process."
Why is that not good enough?
evolution is probably as close to a law, without actually becoming a law as we can get. just take a look at staphylococcus infections. 50-60 years ago, you could treat them with plain old Penicillin G/V. over 95% of all strains are resistant now.
this is all just very disappointing and makes me(should i decide to have kids) not want my kids in their schools
You see, just from the quotes in that article I'm not sure which direction the Florida Board of Education is going with this.
Just using the direct quotes used in that blurb (not the reporter's own definition of what's happening), it's quite possible that the FL BOE is trying to figure out a way to teach their students how to really "think" scientifically. I think it would be a lost hope, but there's nothing to say the BOE isn't trying.
And I also think it's quite possible for the reporter with the "Evolution is FACT!" mindset to fuck up what was happening, if in fact that's what the BOE was trying to do.
I've got a good buddy who got his Masters in Geology from Texas A&M. Pretty smart guy, and he'd be the FIRST person to tell you that plate tectonic theory isn't exactly locked in stone, and there's a HELL of a lot more practical and direct data on tectonics than there is on evolution.
Now, do religious nuts fuck things up with the "it's only a theory" shit? Well, sure. Saying something is "only" a theory as a way to dismiss it is even more ridiculous than saying the theory is a "fact" or "law".
Scientific theory is much more nuanced and delicate than most people think. I know a lot of people who went into the hard sciences because they wanted to get away from the "squishy" stuff like Psychology, Political Science, Anthropology or Sociology. The good ones quickly realize that even the "hard" sciences are damned "squishy", in mindset if nothing else.
That is exactly what I was alluding to in my earlier post.
Although in a far less patronizing manner, and without any childish references to a 'sky daddy' to demean those of a religious faith, even though I feel they're misguided.
Of course evolution is treated as a 'maybe' in Florida. Those people do not know for sure, because they have yet to evolve.
But does it work backwards? I believe it probably does, but I'm not going to sit here and say I KNOW this is how things happened.
That's the important word in all this: "probably". When your kid asks you if evolution is how we got here, the honest answer is, "Probably. I think so, and it's the theory that best fits the known facts, but the truth is that we'll never know. And it's very useful for figuring things out going forward." Of course, that's a hell of a lot more complicated than a quick, "Yes, now quit bothering me."
Shit, it's not like 99% of the people who "believe in evolution" aren't fucking retards about evolution themselves, and can't figure shit out about it. What we as a society consider "good" or "evolved", nature doesn't give a shit about. Survival/non-survival is all that really matters. Intelligence is/was a survival trait, but if being a pudding head became a survival trait tomorrow that's what we would be "selected" for.
So what's your alternative? Catholic school? Home schooling?
And I'm not convinced, from that little blurb, that what the reporter says is what's actually happening. If a BoE tried to impose a scientifically nuanced teaching of evolution, that's pretty much what the typical reporter's blurb would look like.
I'm not saying that the BoE ISN'T trying to teach creationism. I'm saying I don't know.
^^^^ doesn't get the Theory of Evolution.
Somebody here assigns social values to survival values, and calls them "evolution". Which has some selective validity within his particular society, but misses the point with respect to the Theory of Evolution.
Demeaning? You want to see demeaning?
How about this?...
Or how about this?...
Yeah... whatever you do, don't go patronizing or demeaning those of religious faith... that would just be wrong. They, after all, have nothing but respect for your right NOT to believe.
I do hope that you at least appreciate the irony that your attitudes towards religious folks for their intolerance of opposing viewpoints is, in and of itself, a form of the very same intolerance.
I was not assigning anything you cunt. I was making a awful joke.
You're not listening.
THEORIES DO NOT BECOME LAWS.
And you're wrong. Evolution is refutable in principle and makes testable predictions.
Again. Theories don't be come laws. And evolution is no where close to a law. It's way too complex.
Then you'd have to answer "probably" for everything. Nothing can be proven with absolute certainty. Evolution has been proven to an extremely high degree of certainty however, and considering it to be anything other than fact is ignorant.
Nope... I'm nothing but tolerant of religious viewpoints. I would (and have) put my life in jeopardy defending the right of every American citizen to believe in whatever religious faith they so choose.
I am not "offended" by the religious beliefs of others, and I would never suggest that another person's religious viewpoints should be censored, nor would I insist that a person should be disqualified for American citizenship based upon their religious beliefs.... THAT would be intolerant.
"Attitudes" and opinions don't equal intolerance... that's just PC bullshit. As long as George W. doesn't try to deny, or take away, the rights and/or citizenship of atheists, then I could give a fuck what that dumb fuck's attitude is towards atheists.
Intolerant actions equal intolerance. Like these here...
You guys are making a big to-do over this when it's not really one. They're not teaching it as "fact", they are teaching it as a "theory", which it is. I don't know what schools you attended but at my Catholic high school, we studied Darwin's Theory of Evolution in biology class. It was not taught as a theology course, it was not taught as an alternative to the Creationist Theory, it was taught as part of 'we're not saying this is fact, but there are other ideas in the world & we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand & ignore them'.
This is from the Daytona News-Journal:
what's wrong with a kid being able to ask questions and seek facts? Isn't that what education is supposed to encourage?