Fukushima residents' urine now radioactive

Psychopath

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#1
This is fucked
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110627a2.html
Fukushima residents' urine now radioactive

Kyodo
More than 3 millisieverts of radiation has been measured in the urine of 15 Fukushima residents of the village of Iitate and the town of Kawamata, confirming internal radiation exposure, it was learned Sunday.

Both are about 30 to 40 km from the Fukushima No. 1 power plant, which has been releasing radioactive material into the environment since the week of March 11, when the quake and tsunami caused core meltdowns.
"This won't be a problem if they don't eat vegetables or other products that are contaminated," said Nanao Kamada, professor emeritus of radiation biology at Hiroshima University. "But it will be difficult for people to continue living in these areas."
Kamada teamed up with doctors including Osamu Saito of Watari Hospital in the city of Fukushima to conduct two rounds of tests on each resident in early and late May, taking urine samples from 15 people between 4 and 77.
Radioactive cesium was found both times in each resident.
Radioactive iodine was logged as high as 3.2 millisieverts in six people in the first survey, but none was found in the second survey.
The data indicate accumulated external exposure was between 4.9 and 13.5 millisieverts, putting the grand total between 4.9 to 14.2 millisieverts over about two months, they said.
"The figures did not exceed the maximum of 20 millisieverts a year, but we want residents to use these results to make decisions (to move)," said Kamada.
Lets all ignore this. Who's dick did Snooki suck this week? Will let you know at ten.
 

Neon

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#2
I'll wait until Buster H or one of the other experts on this board comment. Even the story itself makes it seem like this isn't too serious.
 
Dec 4, 2010
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#3
If your gonna build nuke plants on what amounts to a breakwater for China build them reeeeally strong.
 

VMS

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Wait, though: If the iodine treatments (ie- plug up your thyroid with iodine so it doesn't absorb any of the radioactive shit) are working, and the residents ingest radioactive material (which is pretty much inevitable), isn't this what we would get?

It's in their urine. That means it's leaving their body. We don't know if any of it stayed in them, of course, and the Japanese gov't's bullshit is obviously bullshit, but getting freaked out about their urine being radioactive isn't exactly shocking.
 
Jun 2, 2005
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#5
If your gonna build nuke plants on what amounts to a breakwater for China build them reeeeally strong.
Amen. I personally think all reactors should be built to military standards.

Wait, though: If the iodine treatments (ie- plug up your thyroid with iodine so it doesn't absorb any of the radioactive shit) are working, and the residents ingest radioactive material (which is pretty much inevitable), isn't this what we would get?

It's in their urine. That means it's leaving their body. We don't know if any of it stayed in them, of course, and the Japanese gov't's bullshit is obviously bullshit, but getting freaked out about their urine being radioactive isn't exactly shocking.
Pretty much this.

You have to understand that chemically speaking, radioactive isotopes act and react just like their non radioactive isotopes, so if you ingest radioactive iodine, it's going to collect in your thyroid just like non radioactive iodine, hence the iodine pills to clog up your thyroid with non-rad so the rad stuff can't collect -- which means your body will expel it, so you'll have slightly radioactive piss. Iodine is a very common product daughter of reactor fuels, so this is very likely the exact scenario happening here.

3 mSv is nothing, and if anything it's an indication that treatment is working to prevent long-term internal exposure.

Finally! A nuke topic that's more in my specialty than Buster's! :haha7:
 

Psychopath

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#6
Amen. I personally think all reactors should be built to military standards.



Pretty much this.

You have to understand that chemically speaking, radioactive isotopes act and react just like their non radioactive isotopes, so if you ingest radioactive iodine, it's going to collect in your thyroid just like non radioactive iodine, hence the iodine pills to clog up your thyroid with non-rad so the rad stuff can't collect -- which means your body will expel it, so you'll have slightly radioactive piss. Iodine is a very common product daughter of reactor fuels, so this is very likely the exact scenario happening here.

3 mSv is nothing, and if anything it's an indication that treatment is working to prevent long-term internal exposure.

Finally! A nuke topic that's more in my specialty than Buster's! :haha7:
You're just a gate keeper, MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaAAAan!!!!!!111
 
Jun 2, 2005
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Dallas
#7
Actually, re-reading the story it infers that they only showed 3 mSv from a combined pool of 15, which would mean that it could be one guy with more extensive contamination being diluted by the other 14 samples, or it could be 15 people averaging 3 mSv of contamination each, it's difficult to decifer from the story as it's written.

Either way, no biggie, and expected.
 

Neon

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#9
I'll wait until Buster H or one of the other experts on this board comment. Even the story itself makes it seem like this isn't too serious.
Amen. I personally think all reactors should be built to military standards.



Pretty much this.

You have to understand that chemically speaking, radioactive isotopes act and react just like their non radioactive isotopes, so if you ingest radioactive iodine, it's going to collect in your thyroid just like non radioactive iodine, hence the iodine pills to clog up your thyroid with non-rad so the rad stuff can't collect -- which means your body will expel it, so you'll have slightly radioactive piss. Iodine is a very common product daughter of reactor fuels, so this is very likely the exact scenario happening here.

3 mSv is nothing, and if anything it's an indication that treatment is working to prevent long-term internal exposure.

Finally! A nuke topic that's more in my specialty than Buster's! :haha7:
I apologiiiiiize to VT (Waddle Doodle). I couldn't remember who the other expert on this shit was.
 

Buster H

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#11
Kamada teamed up with doctors including Osamu Saito of Watari Hospital in the city of Fukushima to conduct two rounds of tests on each resident in early and late May, taking urine samples from 15 people between 4 and 77.
Radioactive cesium was found both times in each resident.
Radioactive iodine was logged as high as 3.2 millisieverts in six people in the first survey, but none was found in the second survey.
Lol, the stupidity here is hilarious. I-131 is a very common fission product that results from a U-235 atom splitting, but has a half-life of 8 days. Think about it, when did U-235 atoms stop splitting in that plant? The day of the tsunami and the emergency shutdown on March 11th. That means that no more i-131 was being created after March 11th.

From all of my training, we were taught that a radioactive element is essentially no longer dangerous after 5 half lives. That's 40 days and would put it at April 20th. With that said, they still would be able to detect minuscule amounts for a few more weeks to come. If the survey was done a mere 16 days apart, the amount of I-131 would be reduced by a factor of inverse-square. If it was 24 days, it would be an inverse-cube.

Hell, I am surprised they were able to detect it at all in the early May samples.
 
Jun 2, 2005
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#12
Lol, the stupidity here is hilarious. I-131 is a very common fission product that results from a U-235 atom splitting, but has a half-life of 8 days. Think about it, when did U-235 atoms stop splitting in that plant? The day of the tsunami and the emergency shutdown on March 11th. That means that no more i-131 was being created after March 11th.

From all of my training, we were taught that a radioactive element is essentially no longer dangerous after 5 half lives. That's 40 days and would put it at April 20th. With that said, they still would be able to detect minuscule amounts for a few more weeks to come. If the survey was done a mere 16 days apart, the amount of I-131 would be reduced by a factor of inverse-square. If it was 24 days, it would be an inverse-cube.

Hell, I am surprised they were able to detect it at all in the early May samples.
I noticed that myself, but I forgot the half life of I-131 and was too lazy to look it up. Long story short, this entire story is fear-mongering bullshit.

If anything, it's a testament to the effectiveness of iodine treatment for exposure victims, but I have no fucking idea how they're claiming to be detecting I-131 after so many half-lives.

Like many other things, this is what's so frustrating about reading someone with a degree in journalism trying to explain complex science.
 

Buster H

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#13
I noticed that myself, but I forgot the half life of I-131 and was too lazy to look it up. Long story short, this entire story is fear-mongering bullshit.

If anything, it's a testament to the effectiveness of iodine treatment for exposure victims, but I have no fucking idea how they're claiming to be detecting I-131 after so many half-lives.

Like many other things, this is what's so frustrating about reading someone with a degree in journalism trying to explain complex science.
I live downwind of a nuke plant here in PA. I had to look up the half-life when I was ordering the potassium iodide pills for myself. Needed to see how large my supply would be. :) I currently have a 40 day supply for 2 adults. That's just in case I deem whatever chick I happen to be banging at the time is worthy enough to live.
 

Buster H

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#14
I posted a similar pic in the original tsunami thread. This is pretty interesting. It's a chart of the probability of the atomic weights of fission products after heavy elements (u-235, U-233, Pu-239) split.

The radioactive isotope of Caesium is 137. You can see by the chart that the probability is much higher than that of I-131, but since Cs-137 has a half life of 30 years, it is actually less dangerous (but still a concern). You might ask yourself, how the fuck can something that is around a TON longer than I-131 be less dangerous? Think about it this way. The term "half-life" comes from how long it will take for half of all the atoms in question to decay. So, if you take 1 billion I-131 attoms and the same number of Cs-137, in 8 days, 0.5billion of the I-131 atoms are gone and have released their radiation. It will take 30 years for 0.5 billion of the Cs-137 atoms to decay.

That's the reason why the only radioactive elements you need to worry about are the ones with mid-range half life. (2 days to maybe 50 years) Anything shorter and it will blow it's load so quick you just have to stay away for a few days. Anything longer and it will decay so slowly that the radiation emitted from it will be negligible. I am sure my range is not exact, but you get the point



Description here: http://www.unclear2nuclear.com/asymFission.php
 

Hate & Discontent

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Aug 22, 2005
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#15
Finally! A nuke topic that's more in my specialty than Buster's! :haha7:
:haha7:

Lol, the stupidity here is hilarious. I-131 is a very common fission product that results from a U-235 atom splitting, but has a half-life of 8 days. Think about it, when did U-235 atoms stop splitting in that plant? The day of the tsunami and the emergency shutdown on March 11th. That means that no more i-131 was being created after March 11th.

From all of my training, we were taught that a radioactive element is essentially no longer dangerous after 5 half lives. That's 40 days and would put it at April 20th. With that said, they still would be able to detect minuscule amounts for a few more weeks to come. If the survey was done a mere 16 days apart, the amount of I-131 would be reduced by a factor of inverse-square. If it was 24 days, it would be an inverse-cube.

Hell, I am surprised they were able to detect it at all in the early May samples.
So, if I did the math right, after 5 half-lives, only 3 and 1/8th percent of the original radioactive mass is still actually radioactive, right?
 

Buster H

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#16
:haha7:



So, if I did the math right, after 5 half-lives, only 3 and 1/8th percent of the original radioactive mass is still actually radioactive, right?

yep. 3.125% That would be April 20th

April 28th: 1.56%
May 6th: 0.781%
May 14th: 0.39%
May 22nd: 0.195%
May 30th: 0.098%


With those numbers, doesn't it seem obvious why the stuff wasn't detected in late May?
 

Hate & Discontent

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Aug 22, 2005
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#17
Gotcha.

Doesn't it also matter what form of radiation is given off? I know the radiation released by Tritium from decay is nearly harmless, since it cant penetrate human skin. It's only going to fuck you if you inhale the gas or somehow ingest it.
 

Buster H

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#18
Gotcha.

Doesn't it also matter what form of radiation is given off? I know the radiation released by Tritium from decay is nearly harmless, since it cant penetrate human skin. It's only going to fuck you if you inhale the gas or somehow ingest it.
Yeah, it does have an effect. I was only speaking in general terms.

I-131 and C-137 both undergo "beta decay" which releases betas and gammas. Beta's (which are basically high energy electrons) have enough of a charge that they would be stopped by the skin. The gammas penetrate much deeper into human tissue.

Tritium also undergoes a beta decay but only releases a beta and no gammas. That's why it's not something to worry about.


Another cool one is Radon. It releases an alpha. That's basically a helium atom without any electrons. It is waay massive and has a high charge. It's extremely dangerous if it hits live tissue, like in the lungs, but will also be stopped by the dead layer of skin external to the body. That's the reason why they worry about it in basements. If you inhale it, it could fuck you up with prolonged exposure.
 
Jun 2, 2005
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#19
:haha7:



So, if I did the math right, after 5 half-lives, only 3 and 1/8th percent of the original radioactive mass is still actually radioactive, right?
yep. 3.125% That would be April 20th

April 28th: 1.56%
May 6th: 0.781%
May 14th: 0.39%
May 22nd: 0.195%
May 30th: 0.098%


With those numbers, doesn't it seem obvious why the stuff wasn't detected in late May?
Just to clarify, though, there does come a point where you can say the original material is gone, and the rule of thumb in the industry is about 5 half lives. Since a half life is a statistical representation of decay, you can assume that the entire mass is completely decayed after 5-10 half lives, as even if a few isotopes remain, they likely wouldn't have the power to show an increase in background radiation.
 

Buster H

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#20
Just to clarify, though, there does come a point where you can say the original material is gone, and the rule of thumb in the industry is about 5 half lives. Since a half life is a statistical representation of decay, you can assume that the entire mass is completely decayed after 5-10 half lives, as even if a few isotopes remain, they likely wouldn't have the power to show an increase in background radiation.
yep! something I just thought of though. If you were indeed looking for that SPECIFIC isotope, it might be detectable after 5 half-lives. That doesn't mean that the actual radiation emitted by the remaining stuff is enough to go above background
 

phillyfranko

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#21
yep! something I just thought of though. If you were indeed looking for that SPECIFIC isotope, it might be detectable after 5 half-lives. That doesn't mean that the actual radiation emitted by the remaining stuff is enough to go above background
Peachbottom plant ? we used to bass fish there in early spring and late fall...warm water outlet great for fishing...buy MD license and run boat up the susquehanna in PA...and we start in Delaware...does that make us rednecks ?
 

Buster H

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#22
Peachbottom plant ? we used to bass fish there in early spring and late fall...warm water outlet great for fishing...buy MD license and run boat up the susquehanna in PA...and we start in Delaware...does that make us rednecks ?
never fished by Peach Bottom. I do remember catching catfish off the back of the Conowingo Dam as a kid. I have 2 plants that I am down wind of. TMI is 90 miles due west, and Limerick is about 30 miles due west. Peach Bottom is 75 miles, but a bit south west. Might miss the cloud from that one, but I would still take my pills.


BTW, you don't have to buy the emergency ones, you can get a 40 day supply off of Amazon for about 20-30 bucks
 

phillyfranko

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#23
never fished by Peach Bottom. I do remember catching catfish off the back of the Conowingo Dam as a kid. I have 2 plants that I am down wind of. TMI is 90 miles due west, and Limerick is about 30 miles due west. Peach Bottom is 75 miles, but a bit south west. Might miss the cloud from that one, but I would still take my pills.


BTW, you don't have to buy the emergency ones, you can get a 40 day supply off of Amazon for about 20-30 bucks
Thanks, we are near Salem nuke plant...its in NJ...but just across the river from Del City...Diver at connawingo said he seen catfish that were as big as him when he dove to inspect the dam...Nuke Fish ?
 
Jun 2, 2005
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#24
never fished by Peach Bottom. I do remember catching catfish off the back of the Conowingo Dam as a kid. I have 2 plants that I am down wind of. TMI is 90 miles due west, and Limerick is about 30 miles due west. Peach Bottom is 75 miles, but a bit south west. Might miss the cloud from that one, but I would still take my pills.


BTW, you don't have to buy the emergency ones, you can get a 40 day supply off of Amazon for about 20-30 bucks
Your paranoia is cracking me up. I guess I was an ELT, though, there was a reason someone like me had to be there to boss you around when you played with your air sniffers. ;)

Thanks, we are near Salem nuke plant...its in NJ...but just across the river from Del City...Diver at connawingo said he seen catfish that were as big as him when he dove to inspect the dam...Nuke Fish ?
Catfish just plain get fucking huge if they're the alpha predator in their environment. Especially around a nuke plant, where the water temp is ideal year 'round for for growth, food, reproduction, etc. Modern nuke plants are actually fantastic for local ecosystems.

Edit: Hydro dams too. If you think about the concept when the dam is running it's basically a treadmill full of food for fish to just swim against the current and swallow all the fish parts coming from the turbines. It's nothing but a 12 hour a day high calorie work-out.
 

phillyfranko

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#25
Your paranoia is cracking me up. I guess I was an ELT, though, there was a reason someone like me had to be there to boss you around when you played with your air sniffers. ;)



Catfish just plain get fucking huge if they're the alpha predator in their environment. Especially around a nuke plant, where the water temp is ideal year 'round for for growth, food, reproduction, etc. Modern nuke plants are actually fantastic for local ecosystems.

Edit: Hydro dams too. If you think about the concept when the dam is running it's basically a treadmill full of food for fish to just swim against the current and swallow all the fish parts coming from the turbines. It's nothing but a 12 hour a day high calorie work-out.
Yeah,thats why we fish Bass etc above the Dam and Stripers below the Dam...great source of food for fish and wildlife...