How much should teachers be paid?

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
There's a really intelligent conversation to be had (this is not the place for such things, obviously.) about how people way back when devalued service jobs like Teachers, Cops and Firemen because they didn't want their tax dollars paying for such things. And so back in the day they only got the very worst candidates for such jobs. Lazy, slovenly, stupid people who couldn't make it in the private sector. Donut eating cops, poker playing firemen, and...well, female teachers.

And of course some wise and conniving people came in and said "Y'all should form a Union" and they did, and now those professions are handsomely paid, perhaps even overcompensated. And of course those professions are beholden to their Unions who negotiate those deals, who are beholden to the politicians who back them - the Democrats. And so all goes according to plan, with liberal teachers indoctrinating our youth with hatred for Trump and Conservative values.

Except now those politicians and those unions have perhaps made those jobs pay a little too much - so now they are actually desirable to competent people. People smart enough to know it's better to work 190 days than 230. And the teachers come under fire from Obama with Common Core. And the cops come under fire from Obama because Black Lives Matter, and Firemen...well, who cares about them? So maybe the next generation of cops and teachers might be a little less beholden to the Democrats. Maybe...
Yep.

See: New Orleans cops

They paid the cops embarrassingly-low salaries. So low, that they only people who took the jobs were criminals who wanted a badge so they could commit crimes better.

I don't begrudge teachers and public servants their salaries until shit starts getting way ridiculous. See: Long Island cops
 

whiskeyguy

PR representative for Drunk Whiskeyguy.
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I have no issue with great teachers getting paid a great salary. But how do you determine a great teacher? And their value shouldn't be based on what it takes to become a teacher, it should be based on what value that person adds to the company (in this case society). New York spends something like $200k to educate a student through high school, with an 80% graduation rate. How many of those kids are going to contribute $200k back into society? And it's not the teachers' fault, but there's certainly an argument that you could achieve a better net value per tax dollar spent if you hired less educated/cheaper teachers.

Awesome, we have amazing teachers in America. Are they worth the price? Can a shop teacher making $35k a year prepare more children to be productive adults than a $90k/year AP English teacher? My argument is yes, and we'd probably see a net increase on return to society.
 

whiskeyguy

PR representative for Drunk Whiskeyguy.
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Look at it this way, would you pay $4,000 for an iPhone just because the guy selling it to you had an Art degree?
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
I have no issue with great teachers getting paid a great salary. But how do you determine a great teacher? And their value shouldn't be based on what it takes to become a teacher, it should be based on what value that person adds to the company (in this case society). New York spends something like $200k to educate a student through high school, with an 80% graduation rate. How many of those kids are going to contribute $200k back into society? And it's not the teachers' fault, but there's certainly an argument that you could achieve a better net value per tax dollar spent if you hired less educated/cheaper teachers.

Awesome, we have amazing teachers in America. Are they worth the price? Can a shop teacher making $35k a year prepare more children to be productive adults than a $90k/year AP English teacher? My argument is yes, and we'd probably see a net increase on return to society.
Teachers will never be held to any significant standards of accountability until the unions are broken.

The outrageous spending increase on education (for little to no increase in student performance) can't be blamed on the teachers(but it sorta can), it's mostly a matter of bloated school administration. School admin has become a gigantic, bloated beast of busy jobs and useless titled admins that accomplish basically nothing that benefits any student.

You give money to a school system, and they will find a black hole to throw it into, and then keep crying poverty.
 

crippledalbino

The God of 42nd Street
Donator
I have no issue with great teachers getting paid a great salary. But how do you determine a great teacher? And their value shouldn't be based on what it takes to become a teacher, it should be based on what value that person adds to the company (in this case society). New York spends something like $200k to educate a student through high school, with an 80% graduation rate. How many of those kids are going to contribute $200k back into society? And it's not the teachers' fault, but there's certainly an argument that you could achieve a better net value per tax dollar spent if you hired less educated/cheaper teachers.

Awesome, we have amazing teachers in America. Are they worth the price? Can a shop teacher making $35k a year prepare more children to be productive adults than a $90k/year AP English teacher? My argument is yes, and we'd probably see a net increase on return to society.
Any teacher in the ghetto who stands on desks and gives inspirational speeches to a room full of hooligans and ne'er-do-wells to inspire them to make this the best car wash ever gets the money.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
Any teacher in the ghetto who stands on desks and gives inspirational speeches to a room full of hooligans and ne'er-do-wells to inspire them to make this the best car wash ever gets the money.
In the end, they saved the rec center, so the real winner of the rap battle was the kids.
 

whiskeyguy

PR representative for Drunk Whiskeyguy.
Donator
Teachers will never be held to any significant standards of accountability until the unions are broken.

The outrageous spending increase on education (for little to no increase in student performance) can't be blamed on the teachers(but it sorta can), it's mostly a matter of bloated school administration. School admin has become a gigantic, bloated beast of busy jobs and useless titled admins that accomplish basically nothing that benefits any student.

You give money to a school system, and they will find a black hole to throw it into, and then keep crying poverty.
And I am not blaming teachers, like Pigdango said, you'd be stupid not to become a teacher. But that doesn't mean the service they provide is worth what they're paid. Same with school administration. The entire system could use a 30% cut to budget across every department, and we probably wouldn't notice as a society.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
I have no issue with great teachers getting paid a great salary. But how do you determine a great teacher? And their value shouldn't be based on what it takes to become a teacher, it should be based on what value that person adds to the company (in this case society). New York spends something like $200k to educate a student through high school, with an 80% graduation rate. How many of those kids are going to contribute $200k back into society? And it's not the teachers' fault, but there's certainly an argument that you could achieve a better net value per tax dollar spent if you hired less educated/cheaper teachers.

Awesome, we have amazing teachers in America. Are they worth the price? Can a shop teacher making $35k a year prepare more children to be productive adults than a $90k/year AP English teacher? My argument is yes, and we'd probably see a net increase on return to society.
I think you can determine a great teacher the same way you determine a great any worker person - on their effort, their integrity, their passion, their productivity, and their results. And no, I certainly do not mean "their students' results," because student results of course are the responsibility of the students. Teachers aren't allowed to take tests for students or do their work for them, so logic indicates they can't be held responsible for the results. It's a teacher's responsibility to teach. It's a student's responsibility to learn and to apply what they have learned.

So if not student results, then what? Teachers are evaluated more often than most professions. There are teachers who get poor marks on those evaluations, and I'll be the first to tell you those people should face discipline or termination the way other professions do, but as Creasy said - Unions and stuff.

You have a lot of folks working under you. Are they in a union? If not, do you automatically fire the lowest performer every week? Every period? Does the top performer make double what the worst one makes, or are they paid based on experience? If you rate your employees 1 to 10 in productivity, is that how they are paid? And how often do you re-rank them? Do you reduce their salary if they have a bad week or bad year? These are questions that are asked of the education system because "my taxes", but they're fair to ask every company.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
And I am not blaming teachers, like Pigdango said, you'd be stupid not to become a teacher. But that doesn't mean the service they provide is worth what they're paid. Same with school administration. The entire system could use a 30% cut to budget across every department, and we probably wouldn't notice as a society.
There's only one reason not to be a teacher... because kids are shit-headed monsters. But that's a REALLY big reason.

Aside from that, everything else about teaching is gravy.

Certain types of school admin jobs are basically being a teacher minus the shit-headed monster children, so that's all gravy, and it explains why there are so many useless admins in school systems. It's great work if you can get it.
 

crippledalbino

The God of 42nd Street
Donator
There's only one reason not to be a teacher... because kids are shit-headed monsters. But that's a REALLY big reason.

Aside from that, everything else about teaching is gravy.

Certain types of school admin jobs are basically being a teacher minus the shit-headed monster children, so that's all gravy, and it explains why there are so many useless admins in school systems. It's great work if you can get it.
You should see the kind of cash you can make working in the California Community Colleges. Oofa.
 

ruckstande

Posts mostly from the shitter.
The common core is what they are tested on and evaluated on. That's a federal law. So why would a teacher want to teach something different? It just makes no sense.
Holy shit! Exactly my point! What is a master's degree for that the bachelor's can't do for you. There's nothing new to learn. You have to teach common core whether you have a bachelor's or master's. It doesn't change. Having a master's won't help so why is it required and why should you deserve more pay?
 

ruckstande

Posts mostly from the shitter.
I’m a design director for a textile company
Do you make more or less than your wife? Would you say you work harder than she does? What are your hours compared to her? Who's health benefits are you on?
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
Holy shit! Exactly my point! What is a master's degree for that the bachelor's can't do for you. There's nothing new to learn. You have to teach common core whether you have a bachelor's or master's. It doesn't change. Having a master's won't help so why is it required and why should you deserve more pay?
Because school teachers are in the teaching business, and the more school the better the business, so requiring a master's is better, because it's more business.

See?
 

whiskeyguy

PR representative for Drunk Whiskeyguy.
Donator
I think you can determine a great teacher the same way you determine a great any worker person - on their effort, their integrity, their passion, their productivity, and their results. And no, I certainly do not mean "their students' results," because student results of course are the responsibility of the students. Teachers aren't allowed to take tests for students or do their work for them, so logic indicates they can't be held responsible for the results. It's a teacher's responsibility to teach. It's a student's responsibility to learn and to apply what they have learned.

So if not student results, then what? Teachers are evaluated more often than most professions. There are teachers who get poor marks on those evaluations, and I'll be the first to tell you those people should face discipline or termination the way other professions do, but as Creasy said - Unions and stuff.

You have a lot of folks working under you. Are they in a union? If not, do you automatically fire the lowest performer every week? Every period? Does the top performer make double what the worst one makes, or are they paid based on experience? If you rate your employees 1 to 10 in productivity, is that how they are paid? And how often do you re-rank them? Do you reduce their salary if they have a bad week or bad year? These are questions that are asked of the education system because "my taxes", but they're fair to ask every company.
My workers (and myself) are under a union, but it's a bullshit one to get certain jobs. It's nothing compared to a public service union. I could be fired tomorrow and my union probably couldn't help me (nor would I expect them to). And I can be fired if my workers (who I rarely get to choose) underperform. Sure teachers can't fire their students, but you can still measure some of a teacher's worth by the success of their students.

I don't fire the lowest preformer, but I do fire underperformers. Probably 5 a month. 3 of those are for attendence. Employees are paid and get raises based on value added. The hard worker who shows up every day and volunteers for every overtime hour but knows nothing about our industry when hired may get a bigger raise out of me than the most experienced guy we have if he only shows up 80% of the time. That's how I personally measure value for a certain project. Different projects require different measurements, but everyone has to contribute more than they cost.

You don't get to have bad years at my company. If you've been with them long enough, maybe you get shelved in some bullshit position while we're doing well, but you're the first to go when we slow down.

And I make more than most teachers (during good years), but I guarantee i work harder than most of them.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
My brother works for the NYSED Board of Regents, he does the college accreditation stuff.

He got a doctorate is some sort of education mumbo jumbo. I asked him why he needed a doctorate... "Make more money". And then I asked him "Yeah but" why he needed to have a doctorate... "More money". Then I asked him "Yeah but do you need to have a doctorate to do your jo...." and I trailed off there because he gave me the Stanley look.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
My workers (and myself) are under a union, but it's a bullshit one to get certain jobs. It's nothing compared to a public service union. I could be fired tomorrow and my union probably couldn't help me (nor would I expect them to). And I can be fired if my workers (who I rarely get to choose) underperform. Sure teachers can't fire their students, but you can still measure some of a teacher's worth by the success of their students.

I don't fire the lowest preformer, but I do fire underperformers. Probably 5 a month. 3 of those are for attendence. Employees are paid and get raises based on value added. The hard worker who shows up every day and volunteers for every overtime hour but knows nothing about our industry when hired may get a bigger raise out of me than the most experienced guy we have if he only shows up 80% of the time. That's how I personally measure value for a certain project. Different projects require different measurements, but everyone has to contribute more than they cost.

You don't get to have bad years at my company. If you've been with them long enough, maybe you get shelved in some bullshit position while we're doing well, but you're the first to go when we slow down.

And I make more than most teachers (during good years), but I guarantee i work harder than most of them.
I like your idea of expelling kids for poor attendance. Let’s get that one passed through and start there. That will get those test scores up in a hurry.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
I like your idea of expelling kids for poor attendance. Let’s get that one passed through and start there. That will get those test scores up in a hurry.
Poor attendance = Moms gets no check

Watch some niggas get to skoo on time quick.
 

crippledalbino

The God of 42nd Street
Donator
My brother works for the NYSED Board of Regents, he does the college accreditation stuff.

He got a doctorate is some sort of education mumbo jumbo. I asked him why he needed a doctorate... "Make more money". And then I asked him "Yeah but" why he needed to have a doctorate... "More money". Then I asked him "Yeah but do you need to have a doctorate to do your jo...." and I trailed off there because he gave me the Stanley look.
It's absolutely the truth, though. I'm going to have to get my doctorate in the next few years to hit the next level of pay. Will I learn ANYTHING AT ALL that will help me in my doctoral program? No. Not a damn thing. But I know I've gotta do it to get to a certain tier in education jobs.
 

Guilty Spark

It's freeing and refreshing
Do you make more or less than your wife? Would you say you work harder than she does? What are your hours compared to her? Who's health benefits are you on?
Let’s see..
More by a slight margin
Yes
More hours depending on the week, never less
Her health plan
 

ruckstande

Posts mostly from the shitter.
Let’s see..
More by a slight margin
Yes
More hours depending on the week, never less
Her health plan
So you work more, work harder, yet make about the same(not including far superior benefits from wife I'm sure)? I'm sure your job requires much more adaptation as well. New technologies, systems, trends, etc.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
It's absolutely the truth, though. I'm going to have to get my doctorate in the next few years to hit the next level of pay. Will I learn ANYTHING AT ALL that will help me in my doctoral program? No. Not a damn thing. But I know I've gotta do it to get to a certain tier in education jobs.
Doctor crippledalbino

And you thought Doctor Satanscheeledr was disturbing.
 

Guilty Spark

It's freeing and refreshing
So you work more, work harder, yet make about the same(not including far superior benefits from wife I'm sure)? I'm sure your job requires much more adaptation as well. New technologies, systems, trends, etc.
Yeah I’m not here to justify it. Most of the kids she teaches are zeros that will continue to be zeroes into adulthood and 50 Edward James Olmoses couldn’t do shit about it. Most parents don’t want to take responsibility and the Democratic leadership unsurprisingly thinks throwing money hand over fist at the problem will solve it.
 

ruckstande

Posts mostly from the shitter.
Yeah I’m not here to justify it. Most of the kids she teaches are zeros that will continue to be zeroes into adulthood and 50 Edward James Olmoses couldn’t do shit about it. Most parents don’t want to take responsibility and the Democratic leadership unsurprisingly thinks throwing money hand over fist at the problem will solve it.
Well that's a whole other conversation. Dems want to throw every tax dollar we have at fruitless education in poor districts thinking more money means more gooder and the poor teachers are just willing to play along. Privatize schools.
 

THE FEZ MAN

as a matter of fact i dont have 5$
Teachers will never be held to any significant standards of accountability until the unions are broken.

The outrageous spending increase on education (for little to no increase in student performance) can't be blamed on the teachers(but it sorta can), it's mostly a matter of bloated school administration. School admin has become a gigantic, bloated beast of busy jobs and useless titled admins that accomplish basically nothing that benefits any student.

You give money to a school system, and they will find a black hole to throw it into, and then keep crying poverty.

When I was in vo tech, shockingly, I was one of he smartest kids in the class, and most trust worthy, the first year I was there, was the last year the teacher was, he tasked me with inventorying the class materials and tools, then we sat down and made a list for the following year, the amount of materials and tools he bought was staggering, the next year was the first year of a new teacher, so he asked me to do the same thing the next year, at first he was happy, then when we went through all the stuff, 80% of it was old junk, so, we ordered even more stuff, throwing out the old stuff, this was because of the “use it or lose it” budget attitude, we bought equipment and tools that an entry level bodyman would never ever use, like tig welders and all the consumables
 
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