Is Border Wall Grounds for National Emergency?

Is Border Wall Grounds for National Emergency?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Jacuzzi Billy

Watching PTI
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#1
I realize "emergency" is subjective but it's obvious to me that it isn't a true emergency that follows the spirit of the law. I wanted to see where other baggers stand on it. Even though it is obvious to me, I don't expect the poll to be lopsided in the "no" direction. I know we are right leaning here so I'd expect it to be closer to 50/50 and I want to see if the poll matches my expectations.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
#2
Let’s break this down before I answer. Apparently there is something called the United States Code, which defines National Emergencies:

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/N/NationalEmergency.aspx

"A national emergency must be based on conditions beyond the ordinary. Otherwise, it has no meaning. The power of the Soviet Union in world affairs does not justify placing the United States in a constant state of national emergency."

"Emergency means any occasion or instance for which, in the determination of the President, Federal assistance is needed to supplement State and local efforts and capabilities to save lives and to protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in any part of the United States.”

Based on this definition of emergency, clearly the situation at the border easily qualifies. Nothing really subjective about that.

So the real question is - Are conditions at the border beyond the ordinary? Based on stats of border crossings and such, you could make the case that the current situation represents a long term status quo, so is not beyond the ordinary. However, I think you could also make the case that the migrant caravans are beyond the ordinary.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
#4
So you’re saying that the people crossing the border illegally should just be considered an ordinary, day to day thing? If so, should we just have open borders then? Like why are we bothering with any border security if it’s simply to be expected that people are going to circumvent that security anyway? I’m not being combative, so please don’t take it that way. If there’s a case for open borders I would like to hear it.

Or is it just “Trump said yes, I say no.” Thats fine if that’s all the thought you put into it. That’s what the majority of people on both sides do.
 

Jacuzzi Billy

Watching PTI
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#5
So you’re saying that the people crossing the border illegally should just be considered an ordinary, day to day thing? If so, should we just have open borders then? Like why are we bothering with any border security if it’s simply to be expected that people are going to circumvent that security anyway? I’m not being combative, so please don’t take it that way. If there’s a case for open borders I would like to hear it.

Or is it just “Trump said yes, I say no.” Thats fine if that’s all the thought you put into it. That’s what the majority of people on both sides do.
I don't mind a wall going up. I just don't think it's a national emergency.
 

LiddyRules

The 9/11 Moon Landings Were An Outside Job
#7
I realize "emergency" is subjective but it's obvious to me that it isn't a true emergency that follows the spirit of the law. I wanted to see where other baggers stand on it. Even though it is obvious to me, I don't expect the poll to be lopsided in the "no" direction. I know we are right leaning here so I'd expect it to be closer to 50/50 and I want to see if the poll matches my expectations.
No. But when a Democratic President uses Anything I Want = Blank Check , at least this means conservatives won't complain.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
#9
For me, hard to distill down to a simple yes or no. In a way democrats laid the foundation for in so many words declaring the situation a crisis (pre shutdown and I’m sure you could pull many examples of the word “crisis” being used).

Politically I didn’t want to see it come to this. I understand why trump is doing it and I believe he is within legal right to do it, but outcome is far from guaranteed. On the other hand Obama acted unilaterally on many issues. Also if the Dems want to use the “if it saves just one life” when it comes to guns, Trump is just as justified. Maybe a national emergency is a stretch, but fuck it, I can’t exactly blame Trump. (And whoever here said that once Dems take back Senate that they won’t hesitate to use nuclear option on every key, needs 60 vote, I agree with).
 
#10
So the real question is - Are conditions at the border beyond the ordinary? Based on stats of border crossings and such, you could make the case that the current situation represents a long term status quo, so is not beyond the ordinary. However, I think you could also make the case that the migrant caravans are beyond the ordinary.
Couldn't you also make the case that the border situation has been beyond the ordinary so long it now appears like the status quo?
 
#11
Emergency is whatever the president decides, I don't know, really. The caravans concern me, and the nature of the immigrants has changed from Mexicans seeking work to Central American families, putting a huge burden on the system. The Dems wouldn't give the money out of spite, and Trump isn't going to take a "fuck you" from that snake Schumer without getting some back. In a strict legal sense it's the president's perogative, but like everything else there's no easy answers.
I personally would like to see the feds go after employers for a start.
 

Jacuzzi Billy

Watching PTI
Donator
#12
Couldn't you also make the case that the border situation has been beyond the ordinary so long it now appears like the status quo?
Weren't the numbers much higher before the recession? Then they went down during the recession and now they are going back up. That seems remarkably ordinary.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
#13
Do you have anything that goes further back than FY14?
I do!

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Dec/BP Total Monthly Apps by Sector and Area, FY2000-FY2017.pdf

I think the interesting thing would be to track things back to the Secure Fencing Act of 2006. The stats may not feel “clean” because they didn’t declare that the fencing authorized by that act had been completed until 2015. :confused:

I do think most of it was completed by 2009:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006

By April 2009, DHS had erected about 613 miles (985 km) of new pedestrian fencing and vehicle barriers along the southwest border from California to Texas.

Weren't the numbers much higher before the recession? Then they went down during the recession and now they are going back up. That seems remarkably ordinary.
They dipped dramatically starting in 2007 when that fencing started going up, then things bottomed out during the recession as you said, and now they are going back up, but nowhere near pre fence/pre recession levels.

If nothing else, I’m now convinced that walls and fences work.
 

Jacuzzi Billy

Watching PTI
Donator
#14
I do!

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Dec/BP Total Monthly Apps by Sector and Area, FY2000-FY2017.pdf

I think the interesting thing would be to track things back to the Secure Fencing Act of 2006. The stats may not feel “clean” because they didn’t declare that the fencing authorized by that act had been completed until 2015. :confused:

I do think most of it was completed by 2009:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006

By April 2009, DHS had erected about 613 miles (985 km) of new pedestrian fencing and vehicle barriers along the southwest border from California to Texas.


They dipped dramatically starting in 2007 when that fencing started going up, then things bottomed out during the recession as you said, and now they are going back up, but nowhere near pre fence/pre recession levels.

If nothing else, I’m now convinced that walls and fences work.
I don't disagree. So you agree we should build walls but this isn't an emergency? That's what I'm taking from your post.
 

Jacuzzi Billy

Watching PTI
Donator
#15
I do!

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Dec/BP Total Monthly Apps by Sector and Area, FY2000-FY2017.pdf

I think the interesting thing would be to track things back to the Secure Fencing Act of 2006. The stats may not feel “clean” because they didn’t declare that the fencing authorized by that act had been completed until 2015. :confused:

I do think most of it was completed by 2009:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006

By April 2009, DHS had erected about 613 miles (985 km) of new pedestrian fencing and vehicle barriers along the southwest border from California to Texas.


They dipped dramatically starting in 2007 when that fencing started going up, then things bottomed out during the recession as you said, and now they are going back up, but nowhere near pre fence/pre recession levels.

If nothing else, I’m now convinced that walls and fences work.
Looking at the stats, I don't think it's conclusive that the wall was the primary source of the decline. It could be but I don't think it's clear.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
#16
I don't disagree. So you agree we should build walls but this isn't an emergency? That's what I'm taking from your post.
I’m now more in favor of the wall than I was before.

I’m honestly still torn on the “beyond the ordinary” part. The first 4 months of this fiscal year look beyond the ordinary. I don’t know how many more months it has to stay that way? I think 4 months feels like a fair amount of time to acknowledge we have an escalating problem, but we had a 4 month escalation back in 2014 and then things calmed down.

I definitely don’t feel it’s as cut and dry as most people on both sides think it is.
 

ruckstande

Posts mostly from the shitter.
#18
I would almost think the emergency is you have a Congress that promised to build a border wall then reneged on that promise when a President you didn't like got into office when he's asking for help.
 

Jacuzzi Billy

Watching PTI
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#19
I’m now more in favor of the wall than I was before.

I’m honestly still torn on the “beyond the ordinary” part. The first 4 months of this fiscal year look beyond the ordinary. I don’t know how many more months it has to stay that way? I think 4 months feels like a fair amount of time to acknowledge we have an escalating problem, but we had a 4 month escalation back in 2014 and then things calmed down.

I definitely don’t feel it’s as cut and dry as most people on both sides think it is.
Do you think "ordinary" should only take into account the last few years or the last 30? The highest number was 1.6 million in 2000, so I think anything over that would constitute not ordinary.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
#20
Looking at the stats, I don't think it's conclusive that the wall was the primary source of the decline. It could be but I don't think it's clear.
True, but I also don’t buy that the recession was the only factor in the decline, as the decline started well before the recession and continued after the recession ended.

Now I’m curious whether President Obama did anything in summer of 2014 during that 4 month surge.
 

Jacuzzi Billy

Watching PTI
Donator
#21
True, but I also don’t buy that the recession was the only factor in the decline, as the decline started well before the recession and continued after the recession ended.
I could make the same argument for the wall.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
#22
Do you think "ordinary" should only take into account the last few years or the last 30? The highest number was 1.6 million in 2000, so I think anything over that would constitute not ordinary.
I think just the last few years. A lot has changed since 2000.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
#24
I could make the same argument for the wall.
If the wall and the recession were two of the factors, I’m in favor of the wall, not in favor of another recession. If there were other factors I would evaluate each one and decide if I was in favor of it.
 

Jacuzzi Billy

Watching PTI
Donator
#25
If the wall and the recession were two of the factors, I’m in favor of the wall, not in favor of another recession. If there were other factors I would evaluate each one and decide if I was in favor of it.
It has nothing to do with being in favor of one or the other. It more has to do with reality.
 
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