Obama defends Iran policy

Begbie

Wackbag Generalissimo
#51
No, you've already been bitchslapped on the Liberty bullshit so pulling it up now proves that you're not having a discussion. You're just grandstanding like a piece of shit who doesn't want to actually listen to what the other person is saying. So in that case, go fuck yourself.
Oh, what do you know...Neon...here you are acting like you're an expert on all things Israel and yet you've probably never stepped foot out of your mom's basement!






;)


 

Neon

ネオン
Donator
#52
Maybe this situation isn't, but you don't think the last 60 years of U.S. policy have been just a smidgeon kinder to Israel and Saudi Arabia than Iran?
Absolutely not 60 years. But ever since the American-friendly ruler of Iran was violently overthrown and our embassy staff taken hostage by the same anti-American theocratic regime that is still in place there and has been engaged in anti-American warfare since then, via the Beirut bombing, to Iraq and Afghanistan with the funding of mujahideen? Yeah, why the fuck would be kinder to people who are our allies than to a country like that? Are you even listening to yourself?

If this does get the total cessation of a nuclear industry in a peaceable way that helps U.S./Iran foreign relations, wouldn't that be good for the U.S., Israel and Saudi Arabia?
So what are you bitching about.
Because it won't, you dope. It didn't work with North Korea and it won't work here. If I had ANY faith in this of course I would want it better. Who do you think will be at an actual risk of death in case of a strike on Iran - you? No. It'll be MY family. MY friends. MY country. I understand the ramifications of such an attack FAR FAR more than you do.
 

Neckbeard

I'm Team Piggy!
Donator
#53
There won't be any strike. This is a great path to peace with Iran.
God, just because an evil schwoogie did it is not reason to get all bent out of shape, boys.
 

Neon

ネオン
Donator
#54
There won't be any strike. This is a great path to peace with Iran.
God, just because an evil schwoogie did it is not reason to get all bent out of shape, boys.
Yeah, good argument.
 

WadsOfShit

Dead to Everyone on Wackbag.
#56
Alright, if you insist...



1. Israel is a democratic country with full separation of powers, independent courts, police, etc. They have equal rights for women, and some pretty pro gay policies (not perfect but getting there). No other country in the region can claim these things.
Never said Israel wasn't a democratic nation, and I definitely didn't say that there was any other nation in the region that was also a democracy (unless you consider Turkey part of that region).

2. Hamas is in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority is in the West Bank. Gaza doesn't fire missiles at the West Bank because they can't - it's too far away. They fire their rockets ONLY at towns and cities inside Israel proper - and by that I mean territory that is not even in dispute like Be'er Sheba, Ashkelon, Sderot, etc.
You're right there. I had some of my facts blur together because I'm not actively remembering the specifics off the top of my head, but you are correct.

3. Patriot Missiles are anti-Missile Missiles and not Surface to Surface missiles, so you wouldn't use them to bombard ground targets anyway.

4. Israel has never, and does never, carry out ballistic missiles strikes on Gaza or the West Bank. They use precision artillery fire, and precision fire from helicopters, jets, and drones.
I was going to originally say Predator missiles, but I wasn't sure on the specific weapons in use. Plus I saw clips of the Israeli military with things that look similar to Patriot Missiles.

5. Please show me this instance of 30+ people being killed. Never happened. In fact, during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, Israel had over 99% accuracy with several hundred aerial sorties. No military action within a civilian population (especially with people who intentionally hide behind civilians) ever has zero collateral damage, but Israel does better than the U.S., France, Britain, or any other country involved in military action. I'll repeat that again just to make it clear: Israel kills fewer innocent civilians in their military action THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY. That's not me making shit up. That's statistics.
Inaccurate. During the Gaza War that went from January 2008 to January 2009, aka Operation Cast Lead, the PCHR (Palestinian Center For Human Rights) confirmed 926 Palestinan Civilians were dead from the attacks on the Gaza Strip and confirmed over 5,000 Palestinians were wounded as well. If that doesn't satisfy you for stats, then the IDF's stat of 295 civilian casualties out of their confirmed 1,196 casualties should.

6. The "disproportionate response" argument is invalid. Did we go easy on Iraq or Afghanistan because they didn't have weapons as advanced as ours? Firing rockets across an international border is an act of war, and you don't get to dictate how harsh the response will be to an act of war that you initiated. On top of that, these mythic instances where dozens of people die simply don't exist. I mean, I can think of one incident in the 9 years since disengagement from Gaza. One. Out of thousands and thousands and thousands of precision strikes under conditions no one else has to deal with.
Last time I checked, Hamas wasn't carpet bombing Israeli cities with F-16 Fighing Falcon Jets either. I'm not saying the attacks Hamas was doing on the cities of Askelon or Sderot were justified. In fact I agree with you, Hamas provoked Israel in a militaristic fashion and the IDF responded accordingly. However, the IDF used excessive force as a response and killed more Palestinians than Hamas killed Israeli.

7. The settlements, despite what the media tells you, are not illegal. I can prove this to you but it will take a while and it's exhausting. The point is it's a disputed territory. It doesn't belong to the Palestinians because there was no such thing as Palestinians until 1967 when Israel conquered those territories from Egypt (Gaza strip) and Jordan (West Bank) who controlled them previously. And even if they were illegal, firing rockets at a kindergarten puts you in no position to complain about the severity of the response.
BULLSHIT! That land has been documented as Palestine going as far back as c.1150 BCE. The only reason why it has not shown up as a nation geographically was because the whole region of Palestine/Israel was always being fought over and was integrated as a state that was part of a bigger entity whether it was the Mamaluks, the Ottoman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the European Crusader Orders, the Seljuk Turks, the Roman Empire, or the British Empire. That little sliver of land has never been a independent nation until the British pushed for it post WWII at the UN. As for the Palestinians, they did exist pre '67. In fact the Palestinians were documented as existing as far back as 5th Century BCE. And as far as the settlements go, the partition plan for the creation of the State of Israel showed that there would be two states that would exist. One state that would be Israel, the other would be the State of Palestine. Here is a map of the territory plan. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg

However, after two wars and multiple conflicts, the Israelis have taken a decent chunk of what the State of Palestine was suppose to be. Furthermore, under Israeli law passed by Netanyahu, the Israeli government has deemed all these settlements illegal but they enforce this law so loosely that people have found ways to exploit this poorly written law keep their settlements in the West Bank. On top of that Netanyahu and the Israeli government do very little to either enforce the law or amend the law to help remove the illegal settlements. These settlements, by the way, are also deemed illegal internationally by the UN and the EU.



Is that a good enough explanation or should I go on some more?
If you want to continue go ahead.
 

Neon

ネオン
Donator
#57
Never said Israel wasn't a democratic nation, and I definitely didn't say that there was any other nation in the region that was also a democracy (unless you consider Turkey part of that region).
Turkey has a terrible human rights record and I said it to refute your claim that it was savage as the rest of the middle east.

Inaccurate. During the Gaza War that went from January 2008 to January 2009, aka Operation Cast Lead, the PCHR (Palestinian Center For Human Rights) confirmed 926 Palestinan Civilians were dead from the attacks on the Gaza Strip and confirmed over 5,000 Palestinians were wounded as well. If that doesn't satisfy you for stats, then the IDF's stat of 295 civilian casualties out of their confirmed 1,196 casualties should.
I didn't apply accuracy to the death toll of civilians and combatants. If someone is firing mortars then you shoot to kill him. If a bunch of civilians are standing around him, then fuck them. This is a fucking war.

Last time I checked, Hamas wasn't carpet bombing Israeli cities with F-16 Fighing Falcon Jets either. I'm not saying the attacks Hamas was doing on the cities of Askelon or Sderot were justified. In fact I agree with you, Hamas provoked Israel in a militaristic fashion and the IDF responded accordingly. However, the IDF used excessive force as a response and killed more Palestinians than Hamas killed Israeli.
No carpet bombings. Again that's just some term you throw out. People who aren't involved aren't targeted, period.

And again the equivalency argument is stupid. You think "an eye for an eye" is civilized? No. They attack Israel so we take out their organization. You want excessive force? Look at the U.S. in Somalia or the coalition forces in Iraq or Libya. How many Americans did Qadhafi's army kill? Somehow this standard only applies to Israel's military action and no one else's.


BULLSHIT! That land has been documented as Palestine going as far back as c.1150 BCE. The only reason why it has not shown up as a nation geographically was because the whole region of Palestine/Israel was always being fought over and was integrated as a state that was part of a bigger entity whether it was the Mamaluks, the Ottoman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the European Crusader Orders, the Seljuk Turks, the Roman Empire, or the British Empire. That little sliver of land has never been a independent nation until the British pushed for it post WWII at the UN. As for the Palestinians, they did exist pre '67. In fact the Palestinians were documented as existing as far back as 5th Century BCE. And as far as the settlements go, the partition plan for the creation of the State of Israel showed that there would be two states that would exist. One state that would be Israel, the other would be the State of Palestine. Here is a map of the territory plan. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg

However, after two wars and multiple conflicts, the Israelis have taken a decent chunk of what the State of Palestine was suppose to be. Furthermore, under Israeli law passed by Netanyahu, the Israeli government has deemed all these settlements illegal but they enforce this law so loosely that people have found ways to exploit this poorly written law keep their settlements in the West Bank. On top of that Netanyahu and the Israeli government do very little to either enforce the law or amend the law to help remove the illegal settlements. These settlements, by the way, are also deemed illegal internationally by the UN and the EU.
You are talking out of your ass and even the Palestinians admit that there is no such thing as a historic Palestinian people. You are confusing Palestina and Falastin (which is the Arab word for Palestinians). You're 100% wrong on this.

Now, I will not get into this argument here because I've fucking explained all this shit a million times before on this board. Your description here is totally false, and you conveniently forget that Israel accepted every single partition plan and the Arabs refused every single one and then unilaterally attacked Israel in 1948.

And they are not deemed illegal by international law. The Geneva convention article 49 states:

"Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the occupying power or to that of any other country…are prohibited… The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupied."

Israel did none of that, and therefore the settlements are NOT illegal. On top of that, UN resolution 242 states that SOME settlements, not all, should only be dismantled as part of an agreement and not before. Here, directly from the mouth of Lord Caradon, who actually wrote the fucking thing:

"Much play has been made of the fact that we didn’t say “the” territories or “all the” territories. But that was deliberate. I myself knew very well the 1967 boundaries and if we had put in the “the” or “all the” that could only have meant that we wished to see the 1967 boundaries perpetuated in the form of a permanent frontier. This I was certainly not prepared to recommend."

And more on the idiotic 1967 border from Eugene Rostow, dean of Yale Law School, Under secretary of State for Political affairs who helped draft it:

"Rostow said ... resolution required agreement on "secure and recognized" boundaries, which, as practical matter, and as matter of interpreting resolution, had to precede withdrawals. Two principles were basic to Article I of resolution. Paragraph from which Dobrynin quoted was linked to others, and he did not see how anyone could seriously argue, in light of history of resolution in Security Council, withdrawal to borders of June 4th was contemplated. These words had been pressed on Council by Indians and others, and had not been accepted."


And Arthur J. Goldberg, US rep to the UN who also helped draft it:

"The resolution does not explicitly require that Israel withdraw to the lines that it occupied on June 5, 1967."


And I can keep going and going and going. The point is that this is a territory that is in DISPUTE. To suggest that it somehow naturally belongs to a group of people that didn't exist as a unique entity until after the territory passed from Egypt and Jordan to Israel is retarded, because even if they DID exist before hand, they didn't ever control those territories. Egypt and Jordan did, and the Ottomans before them. You can't lay claim to something you never owned. In the meantime, the Palestinians insist on preconditions for negotiations while all Israel says is "let's fucking talk." So just knock it off with your run of the mill talking points because I've seen it all before.


PS: Funny how other places do similar things and the EU just LOOOOVES them. Hell, Turkey is occupying Cyprus, WHICH IS AN EU MEMBER!
 
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WadsOfShit

Dead to Everyone on Wackbag.
#58
Turkey has a terrible human rights record and I said it to refute your claim that it was savage as the rest of the middle east.



I didn't apply accuracy to the death toll of civilians and combatants. If someone is firing mortars then you shoot to kill him. If a bunch of civilians are standing around him, then fuck them. This is a fucking war.



No carpet bombings. Again that's just some term you throw out. People who aren't involved aren't targeted, period.

And again the equivalency argument is stupid. You think "an eye for an eye" is civilized? No. They attack Israel so we take out their organization. You want excessive force? Look at the U.S. in Somalia or the coalition forces in Iraq or Libya. How many Americans did Qadhafi's army kill? Somehow this standard only applies to Israel's military action and no one else's.




You are talking out of your ass and even the Palestinians admit that there is no such thing as a historic Palestinian people. You are confusing Palestina and Falastin (which is the Arab word for Palestinians). You're 100% wrong on this.

Now, I will not get into this argument here because I've fucking explained all this shit a million times before on this board. Your description here is totally false, and you conveniently forget that Israel accepted every single partition plan and the Arabs refused every single one and then unilaterally attacked Israel in 1948.

And they are not deemed illegal by international law. The Geneva convention article 49 states:

"Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the occupying power or to that of any other country…are prohibited… The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupied."

Israel did none of that, and therefore the settlements are NOT illegal. On top of that, UN resolution 242 states that SOME settlements, not all, should only be dismantled as part of an agreement and not before. Here, directly from the mouth of Lord Caradon, who actually wrote the fucking thing:

"Much play has been made of the fact that we didn’t say “the” territories or “all the” territories. But that was deliberate. I myself knew very well the 1967 boundaries and if we had put in the “the” or “all the” that could only have meant that we wished to see the 1967 boundaries perpetuated in the form of a permanent frontier. This I was certainly not prepared to recommend."

And more on the idiotic 1967 border from Eugene Rostow, dean of Yale Law School, Under secretary of State for Political affairs who helped draft it:

"Rostow said ... resolution required agreement on "secure and recognized" boundaries, which, as practical matter, and as matter of interpreting resolution, had to precede withdrawals. Two principles were basic to Article I of resolution. Paragraph from which Dobrynin quoted was linked to others, and he did not see how anyone could seriously argue, in light of history of resolution in Security Council, withdrawal to borders of June 4th was contemplated. These words had been pressed on Council by Indians and others, and had not been accepted."


And Arthur J. Goldberg, US rep to the UN who also helped draft it:

"The resolution does not explicitly require that Israel withdraw to the lines that it occupied on June 5, 1967."


And I can keep going and going and going. The point is that this is a territory that is in DISPUTE. To suggest that it somehow naturally belongs to a group of people that didn't exist as a unique entity until after the territory passed from Egypt and Jordan to Israel is retarded, because even if they DID exist before hand, they didn't ever control those territories. Egypt and Jordan did, and the Ottomans before them. You can't lay claim to something you never owned. In the meantime, the Palestinians insist on preconditions for negotiations while all Israel says is "let's fucking talk." So just knock it off with your run of the mill talking points because I've seen it all before.


PS: Funny how other places do similar things and the EU just LOOOOVES them. Hell, Turkey is occupying Cyprus, WHICH IS AN EU MEMBER!
I have no more energy to give into debating, because I have shit to do in the real world that is more important than digging up facts for an internet discussion on a forum thread. So instead of giving an elegant array of facts, I leave you with how I really feel about the middle east, Israel, and all the conflict that happens in that ass backwards section of Planet Earth:

 

Neon

ネオン
Donator
#59
I have no more energy to give into debating, because I have shit to do in the real world that is more important than digging up facts for an internet discussion on a forum thread. So instead of giving an elegant array of facts, I leave you with how I really feel about the middle east, Israel, and all the conflict that happens in that ass backwards section of Planet Earth:

That's the thing. To me it isn't about digging for links on the internet. This is something I lived through for 25 years and still affects my family and friends so it happens to matter to me quite a bit...
 

WadsOfShit

Dead to Everyone on Wackbag.
#60
That's the thing. To me it isn't about digging for links on the internet. This is something I lived through for 25 years and still affects my family and friends so it happens to matter to me quite a bit...
I'm not sure I follow...
 

Neon

ネオン
Donator
#61
I'm not sure I follow...
I just mean that it's really easy to take the side that is seemingly being victimized when you have no real stake in the matter. I am also routinely surprised by people who see right through the media bullshit when it concerns internal American affairs but buy their spiel hook line and sinker with regards to Israel. I expect that behavior more from people who think Trayvon was a poor innocent little child and that people only hate Obama because of his race. Supporting Israel in this conflict can often a tough moral choice, but it's the right one. It really is.
 

WadsOfShit

Dead to Everyone on Wackbag.
#62
I just mean that it's really easy to take the side that is seemingly being victimized when you have no real stake in the matter. I am also routinely surprised by people who see right through the media bullshit when it concerns internal American affairs but buy their spiel hook line and sinker with regards to Israel. I expect that behavior more from people who think Trayvon was a poor innocent little child and that people only hate Obama because of his race. Supporting Israel in this conflict can often a tough moral choice, but it's the right one. It really is.
I've read and watched a lot of information about conflicts between the Israelis and the Palestinians (because I'm a history nerd), so I have somewhat of an idea, but I'm more neutral on that issue because there is a lot I still want to learn about it. And yeah the way people interpret the news media is more reflective of how our nation is so touch and go with freedom of speech right now and how we always take the path of least resistance. That is why it has taken up until now for news media that wasn't Fox News to attack Obama and his shit socialist policies without being fearful of being labeled a racist and why most people will be afraid to speak openly and honestly on the Trayvon Martin shooting. And in regards to the US-Iran-Israel thing; while Israel has dealt with the Iranians the most and probably have good advice, this is the closest the US has come to actually having open discussion with Iran since we installed the Shah as the country's leader until he was kicked out by Ayatollah Khomeini. So, unless Iran does something bat shit crazy; I think it's better to try and play the diplomatic game with Iran, as a way to potentially convince them of stopping nuclear enrichment plants and stuff of that nature.
 
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Georgie

Registered User
#63
There is no such thing as nuclear weapons. It's just a ploy by the Zionist consortium to keep the people in check. Where do you think CGI tech for movies came from? It was designed by the Shadow Brokers in the late thirties and used to create the illusions that were Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
 

WadsOfShit

Dead to Everyone on Wackbag.
#64
There is no such thing as nuclear weapons. It's just a ploy by the Zionist consortium to keep the people in check. Where do you think CGI tech for movies came from? It was designed by the Shadow Brokers in the late thirties and used to create the illusions that were Hiroshima & Nagasaki.


[Jesse Ventura] It's true. I would know. I'm a former governor, a fighter, a Navy SEAL, and an employee at Industrial Lights and Magic for about 3 weeks. [/Jesse Ventura]
 

Georgie

Registered User
#65


[Jesse Ventura] It's true. I would know. I'm a former governor, a fighter, a Navy SEAL, and an employee at Industrial Lights and Magic for about 3 weeks. [/Jesse Ventura]
That guy's a hack. Anyone who knows what it really going on isn't trying to profit off of it. Money as we know it now will not even mean anything in another 10 years. Unless you are part of the elite (which if you're on this site you're not) all you will have is your monthly stipend for food and toiletries and an apartment or house depending one your rank as producer for the elite class or whether or not you're a breeder.
 

WadsOfShit

Dead to Everyone on Wackbag.
#66
That guy's a hack.
Ya think so?
Anyone who knows what it really going on isn't trying to profit off of it.
Really? I would never had guessed his TV Show and two or three books on conspiracies were all done for profit.

Money as we know it now will not even mean anything in another 10 years.
Then in 10 years take out all the money that's in your bank account and light it a blaze.

Unless you are part of the elite (which if you're on this site you're not) all you will have is your monthly stipend for food and toiletries and an apartment or house depending one your rank as producer for elite class or whether or not you're a breeder.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but would it be wrong for me to assume you're a conspiracy theorist?
 

Georgie

Registered User
#67
Ya think so?


Really? I would never had guessed his TV Show and two or three books on conspiracies were all done for profit.



Then in 10 years take out all the money that's in your bank account and light it a blaze.



I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but would it be wrong for me to assume you're a conspiracy theorist?

I've said too much.
 

domelogic

Registered User
#68
Words of wisdom: If you are going to get into a verbal debate about Israel know who the hell you are talking with. I think I have whiplash from the savage beating Neon is putting out.
 

NuttyJim

Registered User
#69
I hope we get to see @NeonTaster storming Tehran on the front lines with the Israeli Military with some of them hot female soldiers, a M4 screaming "Your Moms Box" in Hebrew
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
#71
Focus on the country that killed Americans in a terrorist attack, you say?



Even if I did quote unquote "hate Israel," why does that mean having an antagonistic relation with a country with
80 million people and some of the largest natural gas and petroleum reserves in the world is worth it?
Ugh... anybody who has to go back half a century and trot out the USS Liberty incident to try and make a point about modern-day Israel/US relations... you lose... you lost. You just defeated whatever idiotic point you were trying to make.

It's like fucking Alex Jones yelling "Gulf of Tonkin" into a bullhorn thinking he's making some sort of point about the TSA.

Fucking retarded.
 

Neon

ネオン
Donator
#73
Ugh... anybody who has to go back half a century and trot out the USS Liberty incident to try and make a point about modern-day Israel/US relations... you lose... you lost. You just defeated whatever idiotic point you were trying to make.

It's like fucking Alex Jones yelling "Gulf of Tonkin" into a bullhorn thinking he's making some sort of point about the TSA.

Fucking retarded.
Not to mention that I already dissected that entire incident more than once on Wackbag. It's tin foil hat stuff. It was a really unfortunate blue on blue incident during a war of survival, the US government concluded this as well, and on top of that the families of the dead received compensation from the Israeli government. The fact that this has any more credence than any other blue on blue incident is always related to general Israel hatred.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
#74
There won't be any strike. This is a great path to peace with Iran.
A great path to peace? With Iran?

Son... you just went beyond full retard. You somehow went fuller retard.

Peace. Yeah... that's exactly what those Iranian peaceniks are after...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/irans-parliament-erupts-in-death-to-america-chants/

Iran’s parliament erupts in ‘Death to America’ chants
Vice speaker lauds 1979 attack on US embassy in Tehran as ‘resistance of righteousness against falsehood’

November 3, 2013

Not satisfied with one legislative chorus of “Death to America” chants, approximately 200 MPs — over two-thirds of the assembly – said they would voice their strong opposition to Washington by participating in a collective “Death to the US” shouting match on Monday, the anniversary of the storming of the US Embassy in Tehran.

The Iranian Defense Ministry also vowed that there would be massive rallies nationwide to mark the November 4 attack, emphasizing the Iranian people’s commitment to the motto “Death to America.”
You're bringing up some shit from 50 years in order to try and demonstrate that Israeli/US relations are antagonistic... meanwhile, those Iranian animals were chanting "Death to America!" en masse a couple of fucking weeks ago!

Pardon my French... but you're a big silly person, sir.
 

Creasy Bear

gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh
Donator
#75
Not to mention that I already dissected that entire incident more than once on Wackbag. It's tin foil hat stuff. It was a really unfortunate blue on blue incident during a war of survival, the US government concluded this as well, and on top of that the families of the dead received compensation from the Israeli government. The fact that this has any more credence than any other blue on blue incident is always related to general Israel hatred.
Even if it wasn't... even if it was an intentional attack... IT WAS FIFTY FUCKING YEARS AGO! Before most of us were even born ferchrissakes.
 
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