Operation F & F - Congress Moving Toward Holding Eric Holder In Contempt

Dec 8, 2004
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#1
The Operation Fast and Furious scandal is back in the news, as is Attorney General Eric Holder’s stonewalling of Congress’s valid investigation into the scandal, stonewalling that may cause him to be charged with criminal contempt. As you may recall, Operation Fast and Furious was an Obama Administration plan executed from 2009 to 2010 by the Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Contrary to the core mission of the ATF, DOJ and ATF leadership allowed about 2,000 guns to be smuggled from the United States into Mexico and to be distributed to Mexican drug cartels. While running the operation, DOJ and ATF leadership did not disclose the operation to their personnel in Mexico or to Mexican government officials.

The alleged purpose behind Operation Fast and Furious was to track the weapons, arrest members of the cartels, and dismantle the cartels. That never happened. Instead, the smuggled guns wound up being used by the criminals and have exacerbated the violence and deaths in Mexico. The guns were also connected with the December 2010 death of Brian Terry, a United States Border Patrol Agent, who was killed in Arizona. DOJ and ATF cannot account for hundreds of the guns they permitted to be placed into the hands of Mexican drug cartel members; those guns will continue to be used in criminal activity, both in Mexico and in the United States, for years to come.

The scandal became public in early 2011 after the death of Agent Terry, which brought the operation to a close.

A joint congressional investigation began soon thereafter and still continues to examine exactly what happened during Operation Fast and Furious. The investigation is led by the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, chaired by Darrell Issa (R-CA), and Senate Judiciary Committee Ranking Member Chuck Grassley (R-IA).

So far, the Oversight Committee has held hearings, received testimony, issued reports, and served subpoenas, including one served on Holder in October 2011 seeking, in part, documents concerning who at DOJ approved the tactics used in Operation Fast and Furious.

To date, Holder has refused to turn over all the subpoenaed documents, despite continuing efforts by the Oversight Committee to acquire them and to accommodate any valid interests of Holder and DOJ.

Holder and DOJ’s obstruction of the investigation caused Oversight Committee Chairman Issa to send a letter to the other Oversight Committee members on May 3, 2012, outlining the failure by Holder and DOJ to cooperate with the investigation fully. The letter explains the various issues the Committee may consider at an upcoming meeting to decide whether to hold Holder in contempt of Congress.

The Oversight Committee voting on a contempt citation would be the first step by that Committee in the process to charge Holder with criminal contempt. If the Committee votes in favor of the citation, then the matter goes to the entire House of Representatives. Attached to Issa’s letter is a forty-four page draft contempt report, which details the evidence against Holder for the full House to consider.

Should the House issue a contempt citation, the matter then goes to the United States Attorney for the District of Columbia who is obligated to bring the matter before a grand jury to consider the filing of criminal charges against Holder.

If Holder is convicted of criminal contempt, he faces a fine and up to one year in prison.

Although no contempt citation has yet been issued, members of Congress are currently moving in that direction because Holder does not appear willing to turn over the subpoenaed documents.

On May 17, 2012, six freshman members of the House Judiciary Committee sent a letter to the House leadership (Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA), and Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA)) urging them to have the entire House vote on whether or not Holder should be held in contempt for thwarting the investigation into Operation Fast and Furious. They note that Holder has refused to turn over subpoenaed documents, has given inaccurate testimony to Congress during the investigation, and is attempting to shield himself and other high level officials from accountability.

This past Friday, May 18, the House leadership, along with Oversight Committee Chairman Issa, sent Holder a letter giving him an additional chance to comply with the subpoena. The letter notes that they are unaware of any assertions by Holder of the executive privilege, or of any national security concerns or diplomatic sensitivities that would prevent him from turning over the requested documents. The letter goes on to explain that if Holder does not comply with the subpoena, “the House will act to fulfill our Constitutional obligations in the coming weeks,” which appears to be a veiled threat that the House will vote on whether Holder should be held in contempt.

We will know more about Holder’s fate as the next weeks unfold. If Congress holds him in contempt, it will be because of his own doing. To avoid a contempt charge, Holder should comply with the subpoena and fully cooperate with the investigation. President Obama, Holder’s boss, should order him to do so now. The investigation can then proceed to a proper conclusion. Those in this country and in Mexico, especially the families of the people killed by the guns, can then get answers to their questions about this reckless Obama Administration operation. And those who are responsible for the operation, along with those who condoned it, can be held accountable.

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KRSOne

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
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#2
Holder is too big to jail.

Whats the punishment for someone convicted of treason?
 

Lord Zero

Viciously Silly
Aug 25, 2008
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#3
Holder and the head of the ATF should be in prison for acting as accessories to murder in the death of the Border Patrol agent. Holder should also be in prison for violation of the states' civil rights for his attacks on legal medical marijuana dispensaries.
 

jimmyslostchin

Malarkey is slang for bullshit isn't it?
Jun 8, 2005
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#4
Don't you mean they're "Holdering" him in contempt? Hmmmmppphhhh merrr meh.

Holder and the head of the ATF should be in prison for acting as accessories to murder in the death of the Border Patrol agent. Holder should also be in prison for violation of the states' civil rights for his legal attacks on legal medical marijuana dispensaries.
And this.
 

Party Rooster

Unleash The Beast
Apr 27, 2005
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#5
Holder and the head of the ATF should be in prison for acting as accessories to murder in the death of the Border Patrol agent.
I have to laugh when the conservatives keep trying to pin the death of a person on someone other than the shooter. Aren't their core arguments to gun control:
1) Guns don't kill people, people kill people
2) When arguing against more stringent gun control, isn't their point frequently "criminals will still find a way to get their guns."
3) They've always been against any measures that would hold gun manufacturers and sellers liable for crimes committed with guns.
 

Lord Zero

Viciously Silly
Aug 25, 2008
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#6
I have to laugh when the conservatives keep trying to pin the death of a person on someone other than the shooter. Aren't their core arguments to gun control:
1) Guns don't kill people, people kill people
2) When arguing against more stringent gun control, isn't their point frequently "criminals will still find a way to get their guns."
3) They've always been against any measures that would hold gun manufacturers and sellers liable for crimes committed with guns.
Your arguments are bullshit. The ATF and went out of their way to make sure that those guns (and let's not forget the few hand grenades) made their way into criminal hands. That was the whole point of the operation.
 

whiskeyguy

PR representative for Drunk Whiskeyguy.
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Jan 12, 2010
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#7
I have to laugh when the conservatives keep trying to pin the death of a person on someone other than the shooter. Aren't their core arguments to gun control:
1) Guns don't kill people, people kill people
2) When arguing against more stringent gun control, isn't their point frequently "criminals will still find a way to get their guns."
3) They've always been against any measures that would hold gun manufacturers and sellers liable for crimes committed with guns.
Few conservatives would argue that conspiracy to provide know murderers with firearms illegally shouldn't be a crime. The ATF interceded and instructed gun sellers to allow these weapons to be sent to known murderers.

Also, different arguments can be made for citizens of this country vs our government. The Constitution's job is to protect the freedom of the citizens while drastically limiting the freedom (at least in theory) of the government.
 

Party Rooster

Unleash The Beast
Apr 27, 2005
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#8
Your arguments are bullshit. The ATF and went out of their way to make sure that those guns (and let's not forget the few hand grenades) made their way into criminal hands. That was the whole point of the operation.
I'm not arguing for the merits of the operation. I'm saying it wouldn't have mattered whether F&F was never implemented. Those criminals would have still been there in the desert that day armed with guns (obtained from somewhere else) and still would have shot Brian Terry.
 

d0uche_n0zzle

**Negative_Creep**
Sep 15, 2004
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#9
Subverting the constitution deserves nothing less then death by hanging.
 

Party Rooster

Unleash The Beast
Apr 27, 2005
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#10
Few conservatives would argue that conspiracy to provide know murderers with firearms illegally shouldn't be a crime. The ATF interceded and instructed gun sellers to allow these weapons to be sent to known murderers.

Also, different arguments can be made for citizens of this country vs our government. The Constitution's job is to protect the freedom of the citizens while drastically limiting the freedom (at least in theory) of the government.
I think it's more akin to the recent bust of the Yemeni al Qaeda plot to blow up another one of our planes. Suppose during the operation something fell apart and the bomber slipped through the cracks and was able to successfully blow up an airliner with C-4 we had given him. Do you now charge Petraeus with murder because the operation failed?
 

lajikal

Registered User
Aug 6, 2009
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#11
I have to laugh when the conservatives keep trying to pin the death of a person on someone other than the shooter. Aren't their core arguments to gun control:
1) Guns don't kill people, people kill people
2) When arguing against more stringent gun control, isn't their point frequently "criminals will still find a way to get their guns."
3) They've always been against any measures that would hold gun manufacturers and sellers liable for crimes committed with guns.
Some guns do kill people.
 

MayrMeninoCrash

Liberal Psycopath
Dec 9, 2004
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#13
Isn't this whole "Eric Holder should be put on trial for murder" just the Right's version of "Bush and Cheney should be tried in the Hague for war crimes"? It's silly then and silly now. Good to know that both sides will stoop deep into the insanity when it comes to political rhetoric.
 

Lord Zero

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Aug 25, 2008
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#14
I'm not arguing for the merits of the operation. I'm saying it wouldn't have mattered whether F&F was never implemented. Those criminals would have still been there in the desert that day armed with guns (obtained from somewhere else) and still would have shot Brian Terry.
Doesn't matter. The gangs and drug cartels effectively got the guns from the ATF, therefore the ATF is an accessory to any murder committed with one of those guns. If a friend of mine gets murderously pissed off and I give him a gun knowing exactly what he's going to do with it, it doesn't matter whether or not nothing was going to stop him from getting a gun; I still knowingly provided him with a murder weapon. By the way, let's not forget about the ATF's ulterior motive for basically handing those guns over; to promote an explosion of gun violence then using the public's reaction to that explosion to push for more gun control.
 

MayrMeninoCrash

Liberal Psycopath
Dec 9, 2004
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#15
Doesn't matter. The gangs and drug cartels effectively got the guns from the ATF, therefore the ATF is an accessory to any murder committed with one of those guns.
Since the ATF is complicit in EVERY gun transaction, they would be on trial for a shitload of murders every year. Somehow I don't see any judge seeing things your way.
 

KRSOne

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
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#16
I think it's more akin to the recent bust of the Yemeni al Qaeda plot to blow up another one of our planes. Suppose during the operation something fell apart and the bomber slipped through the cracks and was able to successfully blow up an airliner with C-4 we had given him. Do you now charge Petraeus with murder because the operation failed?
Guns obtained from a source other than the US. Probably from some south American or Mexican military cache. The entire point of F&F was to frame the 2nd amendment for the drug wars. The gun store was not going to sell these guns to the person that went in for them, he called the ATF and was told to sell them. The laws already in place worked to keep guns out of drug cartels hands.
 

caniseeyourtaint

Passive agressive douche
Feb 26, 2004
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#18
Isn't this whole "Eric Holder should be put on trial for murder" just the Right's version of "Bush and Cheney should be tried in the Hague for war crimes"? It's silly then and silly now. Good to know that both sides will stoop deep into the insanity when it comes to political rhetoric.
Going to war with a criminal regime that was voted on by congress and passed...and covertly handing over guns to vicious criminals knowing that they will be used for murder are hardly the same thing.
 

Lord Zero

Viciously Silly
Aug 25, 2008
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#19
Since the ATF is complicit in EVERY gun transaction, they would be on trial for a shitload of murders every year. Somehow I don't see any judge seeing things your way.
If you can't tell the difference between a legal gun sale and this gunwalking scandal, you're an idiot.
 

KRSOne

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
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#22
Lets also not forget that the first modern gun laws came into place as a result of the crime that prohibition caused and now they are using the drug war for the same reason.
 

Party Rooster

Unleash The Beast
Apr 27, 2005
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#24
Doesn't matter. The gangs and drug cartels effectively got the guns from the ATF, therefore the ATF is an accessory to any murder committed with one of those guns.
So in my example of the Yemenis successfully blowing up a plane you'd be charging Petraeus with murder as well?

You don't even believe ATF documents obtained by CBS, you just reached a new level of trendy
Look who's all of a sudden a fan of the mainstream media. You just reached a new level of kirktardation.
 

KRSOne

Registered User
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#25
Look who's all of a sudden a fan of the mainstream media. You just reached a new level of kirktardation.
Documents are documents no matter who obtains them. I don't care if Michael Moore Or Rachel Maddow released them.