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Pete Rose says Ichiro can't catch him

Discussion in 'Sports' started by BIV, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. BIV

    BIV I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.

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    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ki-4000-hits-pete-rose-yankees-japan/2686497/

    I gotta say, and this is as a Mariner fan who will see Ichiro go into the Hall in my team's jersey, I agree with the gambling degenerate.

    I don't care what label they put on it, Japanese baseball is Triple A point five, at best.
     
  2. Ballbuster1

    Ballbuster1 In The Danger Zone...
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    FREE PETE ROSE!
     
  3. Norm Stansfield

    Norm Stansfield 私は亀が好きだ。

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    Let's get one thing straight first: neither Pete Rose nor Ichiro are top tier, when it comes to legendary baseball players.

    That said, even if Ichiro's career ends right now, his 4000 hits are already more impressive than Pete Rose's 4200 and whatever it was.

    The only people who can't see that are those who treat baseball as a religion, and subscribe to the gospel of "MLB stats are the on true God". Everyone who thinks rationally understands that getting 200 hits in a season in Japan, in 500 ABs, is far more impressive than getting 200 in the MLB in 650.
     
  4. Sinn Fein

    Sinn Fein Infidel and White Interloper
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    This.

    And he's right. If you are going to count Japanese ball, you might as well start counting little league and scholastic numbers as well.
     
  5. Absolutely

    Absolutely Self-Heavy

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    I've already shit on Ichiro in the baseball thread, but the pitching in Japan just isn't the same level. It isn't...
    So, while hitting .387 and .358 every year in Japan in an average of 500 ABs is damn impressive, he's was doing it against let's say 5th starter quality guys.
    Sure there were probably super-stars over there, but the pitching overall wasn't nearly as good as MLB.
     
  6. ericd

    ericd I'm a real fucko

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    Although I agree with him on the Ichiro debate, I disagree with "freeing" Pete Rose. Bart Giamatti gave Rose every chance to come clean on what he did to get the lifetime ban but he thumbed his nose at MLB and lied for years before smuggly coming clean.

    I was a minor league ball player (without a realistic shot at making the big leagues) in the mid '80's and it was always made very clear to all the players and coaches that MLB had a very harsh view of any association with gambling or gamblers. I would much rather see "shoeless" Joe get a reprieve before Rose
     
  7. kidconnor

    kidconnor 55gallon hog

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    Ichiro jap hits dont count here. Congratulate him for a personal achievement.. but dont celebrate it on a stat list. And its NOT the same as getting it all in MLB.

    Harder pitchers.. and that's all I got on comparison with the leagues. But outside leagues don't count.
     
  8. Norm Stansfield

    Norm Stansfield 私は亀が好きだ。

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    Pitching in Japan isn't as good as in MLB: true. Ichiro's .20 point drop in batting average when he came over reflects that.

    Pitching is 5th starter level: you can't be serious. Have you ever watched a single Japanese baseball game? The average Japanese pitcher can pitch. They are professional pitchers, who can get anyone out at a pretty good rate. Fifth starters in the MLB, more often than not, CANNOT pitch. They're either washed up has beens about to drop out of the league, or prospects about to be sent back to the minors. Have you looked at the ERAs and OBAs of most fifth starters around the MLB?

    If you're going to compare Japanese professional pitching to that, I can't take your argument seriously. I think you have no idea what's going on in Japanese baseball, and talking out of your ass.
     
  9. Norm Stansfield

    Norm Stansfield 私は亀が好きだ。

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    P.S. In Japan, top level pitchers are rarer, obviously. But so are terrible pitchers. Pitchers who are failing are yanked out of the rotation, or out of a single game even, much, much faster than in the MLB.

    Let's look at just one example, to illustrate this point: Nick Blackburn has spent six years in the MLB, pitched . On average, he used to give up 11 hits every 9 innings pitched. In 2012, he gave up 143 hits and 23 HRs, in 98 innings, for an ERA of 7.33. He was run out there for the Twins 19 times. In Japan, that would've never happened. He would've pitched three starts tops, because there are fewer games so they are more important. Sure, hitters almost never face a Justin Verlander caliber pitcher in Japan. But they also almost never face a Nick Blackburn caliber pitcher for 19 games in a season. And make no mistake about it, the batting average of a hitter depends more on what he does against the Nick Blackburns of the world than what he does against Justin Verlander. Top flight pitchers don't set the batting averages in the MLB. Mediocre and bad starters and middle relievers on losing teams do.

    There are plenty of other examples like Blackburn (Ubaldo Jimenez, Ricky Romero, Ervin Santana in 2012, most of the Astros pitching staff this year, and many more, especially relievers). There's a reason why you almost never see pitchers who fail to make it in the MLB succeed in Japan: there isn't a big enough drop off to allow them to do that.

    (Meanwhile, in the minors, Nick Blackburn had a 2.70 ERA in he same year he posted 7.33 in the MLB. So let's stop the retarded comparisons. Japanese professional baseball isn't fifth starter level, or minor league level. It's professional baseball, slightly below MLB level. Especially when it comes to pitching, which is given much more attention than in the MLB, precisely because there are fewer games.)
     
    #9 Norm Stansfield, Aug 23, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  10. Absolutely

    Absolutely Self-Heavy

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    If you look at the 2013 stats, there's plenty of "4th and 5th starter" types out there...
    Or players you can get your hits against.

    Also, these pitchers aren't facing MLB lineups. I really don't know much about the Pacific League, but come on, these guys aren't facing a middle of the order of Puig/Hanley/A-Gon or Machado/Davis/Jones or Beltran/Holliday/Craig/Molina, etc.

    And if you look at the relievers, it doesn't seem like a lot of these teams have BPs of Kimbrel/Walden/Avilan/Carpenter.

    Orix Buffaloes
    Alex Maestri - 11 Starts, 5.67 ERA
    Takahiro Matsuba - 10 Starts, 4.50 ERA
    Tomoyuki Kaida - 9 Starts/16 Games, 4.85 ERA
    Shun Tono - 4 Starts, 7.47 ERA
    34 Total Starts

    Ham Fighters
    Masaru Takeda - 17 Starts, 4.13 ERA
    Shohei Otani - 6 Starts/8 Games, 4.68 ERA
    Kazuhito Tadano - 2 Starts, 6.75 ERA
    Justin Thomas - 2 Starts, 8.22 ERA
    Hayato Arakaki - 1 Start, 14.54 ERA
    28 Total Starts

    Lions
    Hideaki Wakui - 11 Starts/23 Games, 4.76 ERA
    Fumiya Nishiguchi - 3 Starts, 5.91 ERA

    Hawks
    Kazuyuki Hoashi - 17 Starts, 4.16 ERA
    Hayato Terahara - 12 STarts, 4.24 ERA
    Hiroki Yamada - 9 Starts, 4.58 ERA

    Marines
    Yuta Omine - 9 Starts, 4.57 ERA
    Takahiro Fujioka - 8 Starts, 4.40 ERA
    Otani - 5 Starts, 7.99 ERA
    Dicky Gonzalez - 4 Starts, 8.10 ERA

    Eagles
    Mima - 12 Starts, 5.29 ERA
    Duckworth - 15 Starts, 4.29 ERA
    Kikuchi - 5 Starts, 6.48 ERA
     
  11. Absolutely

    Absolutely Self-Heavy

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    And I'm not saying an ERA in the low 4s, like, 4.25 is a bad pitcher, but that's a good 4th starter in the MLB basically.
    And like I said, they're not facing MLB bats. Why aren't all these guys at the top of their rotations jumping to the Bigs then? Why is it just the rare ones like Yu and Nomo that have success?

    All I'm saying, give me a bat, and I'll go hit .270 in the Pacific League...

    And if Brandon Duckworth, Brandon Dickson are getting starts every 5 days, in a league that only needs 30+ starters, I don't know
     
  12. Stormrider666

    Stormrider666 Hell is home.

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    The funniest thing is that if you look at Ichiro's stats on MLB, they haven't officially included his hits from his time in Japan. While MLB was celebrating his personal achievement (which isn't something that shouldn't be taken lightly), at the end of day the 4,000 hits thing was about selling a milestone and other marketing opportunities because of the guy's popularity. Capitalism, American as baseball and apple pie.
     
  13. VicVinegar

    VicVinegar Registered User

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    It wouldn't matter if he played in a league that was a higher level than MLB. The mark is 4k MLB hits. The league matters.

    Are the Broncos going to say Peyton Manning broke all thier team QB records with his career stats that were primarily done in Indy? Same thing. They don't apply to Broncos team milestones.
     
  14. tysonpunchinguterus

    tysonpunchinguterus "Allegedly"

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    I think Ichiro's an amazing player, but his hit total in Japan is not anywhere near as impressive as that same number would be had it happened in MLB. If anyone needs evidence of this, look no further than Wladimir Balentien, who has 52 HRs with 30 of his team's games left to play. That leaves him 3 HRs shy of tying the Japanese single-season record held by Sadaharu Oh and 2 MLB living legends - Karl "Tuffy" Rhodes and Alex Cabrera. Balentien last played in MLB in 2009 and produced 7 HRs and a .385 slugging % in 96 games. Now he's got 52 HRs and is slugging .829 with a 1.297 OPS
     
  15. SallieTomato

    SallieTomato Here'sh The Thing

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    Ha!
    Get a load o' the Pete Rose-do on that guy!

    And if Jimmy fucking said it, you'd be pissing in your pants.
     
  16. MrBootlegs

    MrBootlegs New Wackbag

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    pete rose is a HOF, whoever said he wasn't doesn't know sh*t
     
    countryblumpkin likes this.
  17. Absolutely

    Absolutely Self-Heavy

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    Language!
     

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