Pete Rose says Ichiro can't catch him

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
Apr 22, 2002
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#1
New York Yankees outfielder Ichiro Suzuki may have 4,000 career professional hits, but never, ever, will he catch all-time hit leader Pete Rose.

So says the only other man still alive to collect 4,000 hits.

"He's still 600 hits away from catching [teammate] Derek Jeter,'' Rose told USA TODAY Sports, "so how can he catch me?''

Rose's methodology: Jeter has 3,308 major league hits, Suzuki 2,722. Yes, Rose discounts the 1,278 hits Suzuki amassed while playing in Japan's top league - at least as they relate to being considered the Hit King.

Therefore, if Suzuki has 4,000 career hits, Rose says, then he has 4,673 hits.

"Hey, if we're counting professional hits,'' says Rose, the major-league hit leader at 4,256, "then add on my 427 career hits in the minors. I was a professional then, too.

"If you look at the records, Henry Aaron has 4,000 professional hits. So did Stan Musial.''

Rose may be 72 years old, and produced his last hit in 1986, but the man knows his baseball stats.

Aaron indeed had 4,095 professional hits - 3,771 in the major leagues and 371 in the minors. Musial had 4,001 professional hits - 3,630 hits in the majors and 371 in the minors.

"I don't want to take anything away from (Suzuki),'' Rose says, "but does anybody remember making a big deal when Henry Aaron had 755 homers and [Japanese slugger] Sadaharu Oh passed him?

"Are we now supposed to count Warren Moon's passing yards in the Canadian Football League to his NFL career stats?

"When you compare yourself to me, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Nap Lajoie, we all did it in the states.''

Don't misinterpret Rose's opinion of Suzuki. Rose believes he is one of the greatest hitters of his era. Rose may never get into the Hall of Fame after receiving a lifetime ban for gambling, but he says that Suzuki richly deserves the honor.


"Listen, if I'm voting today for the Hall of Fame,'' Rose says, "Ichiro has got my vote. He's got the [10] Gold Gloves. The golden arm. A lot of hits. There's really nothing wrong with his game.

"I wouldn't even make him wait five years, I'll tell you that.''

Yet, Rose says, Ichiro will never the all-time hits' king.

"If people consider him to have the record if he gets to 4,257 hits,'' Rose says, "I'll come back and play if I'm reinstated. I'm sure even at my age I can hit a 15-hopper up the middle and crawl to first base for a hit.''

Rose laughs, on his way to another autograph session in Los Angeles.


"I wish I could have played against him,'' Rose says. "Battling him for 200 hits. Or battling him for batting titles. That would have been something.''

Who knows, Rose says, if he had gotten off to a better start in his career, maybe he would have had 4,500 hits. He had just 309 hits his first two major-league seasons, while Ichiro had 450 hits his first two seasons with the Seattle Mariners.

"I'm not here to knock Japanese baseball,'' Rose says. "I respect the way they play, the way they practice and I just wish more good players would come over here and play.

"When he came here, he was already an established hitter. If he had spent his first eight seasons in the states, who knows how many hits he would have? Everyone's got an opinion.''


Yet, no matter how you view Ichiro's 4,000 hits, if nothing else, Rose says, it's a debate that at least pushes the Biogenesis performance-enhancing drug scandal off the sports pages.

Well, at least for a few minutes.

"As a baseball fan,'' Rose says, "I'm tired of reading about PEDs. I'm tired of hearing about the appeals and suspensions. This is a good thing for baseball.

"The Pirates are a good thing for baseball. Atlanta's 14-game winning streak was a good thing for baseball. [Yasiel] Puig and the Dodgers are a good thing for baseball.

"So this is good. Especially that he did in New York.

"Baseball needed this.''
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ki-4000-hits-pete-rose-yankees-japan/2686497/

I gotta say, and this is as a Mariner fan who will see Ichiro go into the Hall in my team's jersey, I agree with the gambling degenerate.

I don't care what label they put on it, Japanese baseball is Triple A point five, at best.
 

Norm Stansfield

私は亀が好きだ。
Mar 17, 2009
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#3
Let's get one thing straight first: neither Pete Rose nor Ichiro are top tier, when it comes to legendary baseball players.

That said, even if Ichiro's career ends right now, his 4000 hits are already more impressive than Pete Rose's 4200 and whatever it was.

The only people who can't see that are those who treat baseball as a religion, and subscribe to the gospel of "MLB stats are the on true God". Everyone who thinks rationally understands that getting 200 hits in a season in Japan, in 500 ABs, is far more impressive than getting 200 in the MLB in 650.
 
Jan 25, 2006
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#5
The only people who can't see that are those who treat baseball as a religion, and subscribe to the gospel of "MLB stats are the on true God". Everyone who thinks rationally understands that getting 200 hits in a season in Japan, in 500 ABs, is far more impressive than getting 200 in the MLB in 650.
I've already shit on Ichiro in the baseball thread, but the pitching in Japan just isn't the same level. It isn't...
So, while hitting .387 and .358 every year in Japan in an average of 500 ABs is damn impressive, he's was doing it against let's say 5th starter quality guys.
Sure there were probably super-stars over there, but the pitching overall wasn't nearly as good as MLB.
 

ericd

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Aug 21, 2009
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#6
Although I agree with him on the Ichiro debate, I disagree with "freeing" Pete Rose. Bart Giamatti gave Rose every chance to come clean on what he did to get the lifetime ban but he thumbed his nose at MLB and lied for years before smuggly coming clean.

I was a minor league ball player (without a realistic shot at making the big leagues) in the mid '80's and it was always made very clear to all the players and coaches that MLB had a very harsh view of any association with gambling or gamblers. I would much rather see "shoeless" Joe get a reprieve before Rose
 

kidconnor

55gallon hog
Mar 16, 2005
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#7
Ichiro jap hits dont count here. Congratulate him for a personal achievement.. but dont celebrate it on a stat list. And its NOT the same as getting it all in MLB.

Harder pitchers.. and that's all I got on comparison with the leagues. But outside leagues don't count.
 

Norm Stansfield

私は亀が好きだ。
Mar 17, 2009
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#8
I've already shit on Ichiro in the baseball thread, but the pitching in Japan just isn't the same level. It isn't...
So, while hitting .387 and .358 every year in Japan in an average of 500 ABs is damn impressive, he's was doing it against let's say 5th starter quality guys.
Sure there were probably super-stars over there, but the pitching overall wasn't nearly as good as MLB.
Pitching in Japan isn't as good as in MLB: true. Ichiro's .20 point drop in batting average when he came over reflects that.

Pitching is 5th starter level: you can't be serious. Have you ever watched a single Japanese baseball game? The average Japanese pitcher can pitch. They are professional pitchers, who can get anyone out at a pretty good rate. Fifth starters in the MLB, more often than not, CANNOT pitch. They're either washed up has beens about to drop out of the league, or prospects about to be sent back to the minors. Have you looked at the ERAs and OBAs of most fifth starters around the MLB?

If you're going to compare Japanese professional pitching to that, I can't take your argument seriously. I think you have no idea what's going on in Japanese baseball, and talking out of your ass.
 

Norm Stansfield

私は亀が好きだ。
Mar 17, 2009
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#9
P.S. In Japan, top level pitchers are rarer, obviously. But so are terrible pitchers. Pitchers who are failing are yanked out of the rotation, or out of a single game even, much, much faster than in the MLB.

Let's look at just one example, to illustrate this point: Nick Blackburn has spent six years in the MLB, pitched . On average, he used to give up 11 hits every 9 innings pitched. In 2012, he gave up 143 hits and 23 HRs, in 98 innings, for an ERA of 7.33. He was run out there for the Twins 19 times. In Japan, that would've never happened. He would've pitched three starts tops, because there are fewer games so they are more important. Sure, hitters almost never face a Justin Verlander caliber pitcher in Japan. But they also almost never face a Nick Blackburn caliber pitcher for 19 games in a season. And make no mistake about it, the batting average of a hitter depends more on what he does against the Nick Blackburns of the world than what he does against Justin Verlander. Top flight pitchers don't set the batting averages in the MLB. Mediocre and bad starters and middle relievers on losing teams do.

There are plenty of other examples like Blackburn (Ubaldo Jimenez, Ricky Romero, Ervin Santana in 2012, most of the Astros pitching staff this year, and many more, especially relievers). There's a reason why you almost never see pitchers who fail to make it in the MLB succeed in Japan: there isn't a big enough drop off to allow them to do that.

(Meanwhile, in the minors, Nick Blackburn had a 2.70 ERA in he same year he posted 7.33 in the MLB. So let's stop the retarded comparisons. Japanese professional baseball isn't fifth starter level, or minor league level. It's professional baseball, slightly below MLB level. Especially when it comes to pitching, which is given much more attention than in the MLB, precisely because there are fewer games.)
 
Last edited:
Jan 25, 2006
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#10
If you look at the 2013 stats, there's plenty of "4th and 5th starter" types out there...
Or players you can get your hits against.

Also, these pitchers aren't facing MLB lineups. I really don't know much about the Pacific League, but come on, these guys aren't facing a middle of the order of Puig/Hanley/A-Gon or Machado/Davis/Jones or Beltran/Holliday/Craig/Molina, etc.

And if you look at the relievers, it doesn't seem like a lot of these teams have BPs of Kimbrel/Walden/Avilan/Carpenter.

Orix Buffaloes
Alex Maestri - 11 Starts, 5.67 ERA
Takahiro Matsuba - 10 Starts, 4.50 ERA
Tomoyuki Kaida - 9 Starts/16 Games, 4.85 ERA
Shun Tono - 4 Starts, 7.47 ERA
34 Total Starts

Ham Fighters
Masaru Takeda - 17 Starts, 4.13 ERA
Shohei Otani - 6 Starts/8 Games, 4.68 ERA
Kazuhito Tadano - 2 Starts, 6.75 ERA
Justin Thomas - 2 Starts, 8.22 ERA
Hayato Arakaki - 1 Start, 14.54 ERA
28 Total Starts

Lions
Hideaki Wakui - 11 Starts/23 Games, 4.76 ERA
Fumiya Nishiguchi - 3 Starts, 5.91 ERA

Hawks
Kazuyuki Hoashi - 17 Starts, 4.16 ERA
Hayato Terahara - 12 STarts, 4.24 ERA
Hiroki Yamada - 9 Starts, 4.58 ERA

Marines
Yuta Omine - 9 Starts, 4.57 ERA
Takahiro Fujioka - 8 Starts, 4.40 ERA
Otani - 5 Starts, 7.99 ERA
Dicky Gonzalez - 4 Starts, 8.10 ERA

Eagles
Mima - 12 Starts, 5.29 ERA
Duckworth - 15 Starts, 4.29 ERA
Kikuchi - 5 Starts, 6.48 ERA
 
Jan 25, 2006
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#11
And I'm not saying an ERA in the low 4s, like, 4.25 is a bad pitcher, but that's a good 4th starter in the MLB basically.
And like I said, they're not facing MLB bats. Why aren't all these guys at the top of their rotations jumping to the Bigs then? Why is it just the rare ones like Yu and Nomo that have success?

All I'm saying, give me a bat, and I'll go hit .270 in the Pacific League...

And if Brandon Duckworth, Brandon Dickson are getting starts every 5 days, in a league that only needs 30+ starters, I don't know
 

Stormrider666

Hell is home.
Mar 19, 2005
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#12
The funniest thing is that if you look at Ichiro's stats on MLB, they haven't officially included his hits from his time in Japan. While MLB was celebrating his personal achievement (which isn't something that shouldn't be taken lightly), at the end of day the 4,000 hits thing was about selling a milestone and other marketing opportunities because of the guy's popularity. Capitalism, American as baseball and apple pie.
 

VicVinegar

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Oct 5, 2012
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#13
Ichiro jap hits dont count here. Congratulate him for a personal achievement.. but dont celebrate it on a stat list. And its NOT the same as getting it all in MLB.

Harder pitchers.. and that's all I got on comparison with the leagues. But outside leagues don't count.
It wouldn't matter if he played in a league that was a higher level than MLB. The mark is 4k MLB hits. The league matters.

Are the Broncos going to say Peyton Manning broke all thier team QB records with his career stats that were primarily done in Indy? Same thing. They don't apply to Broncos team milestones.
 
Feb 5, 2003
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#14
I think Ichiro's an amazing player, but his hit total in Japan is not anywhere near as impressive as that same number would be had it happened in MLB. If anyone needs evidence of this, look no further than Wladimir Balentien, who has 52 HRs with 30 of his team's games left to play. That leaves him 3 HRs shy of tying the Japanese single-season record held by Sadaharu Oh and 2 MLB living legends - Karl "Tuffy" Rhodes and Alex Cabrera. Balentien last played in MLB in 2009 and produced 7 HRs and a .385 slugging % in 96 games. Now he's got 52 HRs and is slugging .829 with a 1.297 OPS
 

SallieTomato

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Jul 25, 2012
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#15
Ha!
Get a load o' the Pete Rose-do on that guy!

And if Jimmy fucking said it, you'd be pissing in your pants.