Saudi journalist walks into Saudi consulate in Istanbul, but doesn't walk out (Turks allege he was murdered)

SKEPTIC

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Latest summary of events (Wikipedia)


Disappearance
Khashoggi entered Saudi Arabia's consulate in Istanbul on 2 October to obtain a document he needed to get married but never came out.[23] On 3 October, the Saudi government said he had left the consulate,[24][25][26] the Turkish government said he was still inside, and his fiancée and friends said he was still missing.[27]

According to numerous anonymous police sources, the Turkish police believe that Khashoggi was brutally tortured and later killed inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul[28][29] by a 15-member team brought in from Saudi Arabia for the operation.[30][31] One anonymous police source claimed that the dead body was chopped to pieces and quietly moved out of the consulate and all of this was "videotaped to prove the mission had been accomplished and the tape was taken out of the country".[29]

Turkish authorities have claimed that security camera footage was removed from the Saudi consulate in Istanbul and that Turkish staff were abruptly told to take a holiday on the day Khashoggi disappeared while inside the building.[32]

While Turkish officials pledged to release evidence on October 7 to support claims that the journalist was killed,[31] they did not deliver, and officials who had offered glimpses into the investigation for the past week were no longer prepared to talk.[32] Similarly while Yasin Aktay, an adviser to the Turkish president, initially said he believed Khashoggi had been killed in the consulate,[29] on Oct 10 he claimed “the Saudi state is not blamed here”, something the Guardian journalist sees as Turkey trying not to harm lucrative trade ties and a delicate regional relationship with Saudi Arabia.[32]

On October 10, al-Waqt news quoted informed sources as saying that Mohammad bin Salman had assigned Ahmad Asiri, the deputy head of the Al-Mukhabarat Al-A'amah[33] and the former spokesman for the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen, with the mission to execute Jamal Khashoggi inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Another military officer with lots of experience in dealing with dissidents was the second candidate for the mission.[34]

Reactions
Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman claimed Khashoggi left the consulate shortly after the visit.[35] The English language Arab News on 10 October 2018 reported that the Saudi Ambassador to the US "condemns ‘malicious leaks and grim rumors’ surrounding Khashoggi disappearance" and that "the reports that suggest that Jamal Khashoggi went missing in the Consulate in Istanbul or that the Kingdom’s authorities have detained him or killed him are absolutely false, and baseless".[36]

Turkish president Erdoğan demanded that Saudi government provide proof for their claims that Khashoggi left the consulate alive, something that Turkish police CCTV didn’t capture.[37]

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo called on Saudi Arabia "to support a thorough investigation of Mr. Khashoggi's disappearance and to be transparent about the results of that investigation."[38] President Trump expressed concern about the fate of Khashoggi.[39] US Senator Chris Murphy wrote that if the reports of Khashoggi's murder are true, "it should represent a fundamental break" in Saudi Arabia–United States relations.[40]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi
 
Dec 8, 2004
49,632
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Maine
#8
Ya ole Talc is having a Kitten about this one... one of he retweets...


So it's out problem that a Saudi national got corrected by the Saudi gubmint... I thought the left was bitching all the time about the US being the World Police... why not let the UN get right on that hmmm?

OH NOES SAUDIS STAY IN LUXURY APARTMENTS UNPEACH Immediately...

 

ysr50

Well-Known Member
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Apr 20, 2012
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#9
I have some Armenian friends that don't give a fuck about this, I'll follow their lead.
 

THE FEZ MAN

as a matter of fact i dont have 5$
Aug 23, 2002
43,358
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#11
Ya ole Talc is having a Kitten about this one... one of he retweets...


So it's out problem that a Saudi national got corrected by the Saudi gubmint... I thought the left was bitching all the time about the US being the World Police... why not let the UN get right on that hmmm?

OH NOES SAUDIS STAY IN LUXURY APARTMENTS UNPEACH Immediately...

Talcum should be thankful no one takes him seriously because he would not be missed
 

SKEPTIC

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#12

One of the Saudi team was identified by Turkey's official Anadolu Agency and Sabah as Salah Muhammed al-Tubaiqi. He is listed on an official Saudi health website as the head of the forensic medicine department at the interior ministry. He received his Master's degree at the University of Glasgow, according to the website. An October 2014 article in the state-aligned Sharq al-Awsat included a picture of Tubaiqi in uniform. The author of the article identified him as a lieutenant colonel.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/11/middleeast/khashoggi-saudi-hit-squad-forensics-expert-intl/index.html
 

SKEPTIC

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#13
Economist: What it means if Saudi Arabia murdered a journalist in Turkey
Muhammad bin Salman, the Saudi crown prince, is starting to look like an old-fashioned despot

IT HAS been over a week since Jamal Khashoggi, a prominent Saudi journalist and government critic (pictured), walked into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul to get paperwork for a marriage. No one has seen him since. Turkish officials say that he was killed by a team of Saudi assassins, who dismembered his body, on orders from the top of the royal court (see article). The Saudis retort that Mr Khashoggi left the building of his own accord. If so, when? Are there witnesses or written records? Why is there no security-camera footage? And why did 15 Saudis fly in on private jets just before he disappeared, and leave shortly after? The Saudis must provide answers, or the world will assume the worst.

If it transpires that Mr Khashoggi has been killed, whether deliberately or in a botched kidnapping, it will strengthen the sense that Muhammad bin Salman, the Saudi crown prince and de facto ruler, is more of a rogue than a reformer. He has locked up thousands of activists. He detained a sitting prime minister of Lebanon, Saad Hariri, for two weeks in November. His long arm has already reached abroad. In March a women’s-rights campaigner, Loujain al-Hathloul, was detained in Abu Dhabi, whisked to Saudi Arabia and, later, thrown in jail. In September a Saudi satirist based in London claimed that he was beaten by goons who had been sent from Saudi Arabia.

Murdering a critic on foreign soil would be an escalation of a dismal trend. Unlike past Saudi royals, who allowed some debate and often sought to mediate between competing interests, Prince Muhammad rules as if only he has the answers. His brutish handling of even mild critics is overshadowing more admirable policies, which include curbing the religious police, letting women drive and encouraging them to work. As his regime starts to resemble an Arab nationalist dictatorship—socially liberal but centralised, paranoid and built on fear—his promise of a new, tolerant Saudi Arabia is receding.

Prince Muhammad’s autocratic tendencies have economic consequences, too. He aims, ambitiously, to wean the kingdom off oil. But investors are warned off by the capricious way he takes decisions. Last year he locked up and seized assets from hundreds of businessmen, officials and princes in an “anti-corruption” drive that lacked even a hint of due process. His effort to spur the private sector is, oddly, top-down. The planned stockmarket listing of part of Aramco, the state oil giant, suffered from Prince Muhammad’s micromanagement and has been postponed indefinitely. Other grandiose projects, such as NEOM, a futuristic city staffed by robots, seem ill-considered. But advisers dare not challenge the prince.

Some friendly nasiha

In countries like America, where Mr Khashoggi lived, the instinct has been to offer the prince weapons and support. Instead, the prince’s allies should make clear that he does not have a blank cheque—and that his rule would benefit from more openness. Mr Khashoggi, a former government adviser, often said that his criticism of the Saudi regime was nasiha, or friendly counsel. He did not consider himself a dissident and disliked the idea of regime change. “It’s just ridiculous,” he told The Economist in July. “I believe in the system—I just want a reformed system.” The Saudi regime should listen to its critics, not silence them.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2...-saudi-arabia-murdered-a-journalist-in-turkey
 

SKEPTIC

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#16
(the victim's) Khashoggi's op-ed, Washington Post, September 18, 2017

Saudi Arabia wasn’t always this repressive. Now it’s unbearable.

When I speak of the fear, intimidation, arrests and public shaming of intellectuals and religious leaders who dare to speak their minds, and then I tell you that I’m from Saudi Arabia, are you surprised?

With young Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s rise to power, he promised an embrace of social and economic reform. He spoke of making our country more open and tolerant and promised that he would address the things that hold back our progress, such as the ban on women driving.

But all I see now is the recent wave of arrests. Last week, about 30 people were reportedly rounded up by authorities, ahead of the crown prince’s ascension to the throne. Some of the arrested are good friends of mine, and the effort represents the public shaming of intellectuals and religious leaders who dare to express opinions contrary to those of my country’s leadership. The scene was quite dramatic as masked security men stormed houses with cameras, filming everything and confiscating papers, books and computers. The arrested are accused of being recipients of Qatari money and part of a grand Qatari-backed conspiracy. Several others, myself included, are in self-exile and could face arrest upon returning home.

It anguishes me to speak with other Saudi friends in Istanbul and London who are also in self-exile. There are at least seven of us — are we going to be the core of a Saudi diaspora? We spend endless hours on the phone trying to understand this wave of arrests that have included my friend, businessman and thoughtful Twitter personality Essam Al-Zamil. It was just last Tuesday that he returned home from the United States, having been part of an official Saudi delegation. That is how breathtakingly fast you can fall out of favor with Saudi Arabia. It is all quite shocking. But this has not been business as usual in my country.

In 2003 and again in 2010, I was fired from my job as editor in chief of a “progressive” paper, Al-Watan. During the years in between, I served as media adviser to Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador to Britain and then the United States. Perhaps it seems odd to be fired by the government and then serve it abroad. Yet that is truly the Saudi paradox. In the starkest terms, Saudi Arabia is trying to moderate the extreme viewpoints of both liberal reformers and conservative clerics. And the arrests span that spectrum.

Why would this climate of fear and intimidation be so prevalent when a young, charismatic leader is promising long-awaited reforms to spur economic growth and diversify our economy? The crown prince is popular, and his reform plan was supported by most of the 30 clerics, writers and social media superstars who were rounded up in the middle of the night.

In recent months, Saudi Arabia has instituted several new and extreme policies, from full-throated opposition of Islamists to encouraging citizens to name others to a government blacklist. Those arrested were on that list. Columnists close to the Saudi leadership repeatedly demanded that Islamists be “eradicated.” It’s no secret that the crown prince despises the Muslim Brotherhood, yet it is actually a strange contradiction to identify a person as a Muslim Brotherhood activist. I always found it ironic when a Saudi official bashes Islamists, given that Saudi Arabia is the mother of all political Islam — and even describes itself as an Islamic state in its “ Higher Law.” (We avoid the term “constitution” because of its secular interpretation and often say that the Koran is our constitution.)

Regardless of who is being targeted, this is not what Saudi Arabia needs right now. We are going through a major economic transformation that is supported by the people, a transformation that will free us from total dependence on oil and restore a culture of work and production.

This is a very painful process. Mohammed bin Salman is best served by encouraging constructive, diverse opinions from public figures such as Essam and other economists, clerics, intellectuals and business people who have instead been swept up in these arrests.

My friends and I living abroad feel helpless. We want our country to thrive and to see the 2030 vision realized. We are not opposed to our government and care deeply about Saudi Arabia. It is the only home we know or want. Yet we are the enemy. Under pressure from my government, the publisher of one of the most widely read Arabic dailies, Al-Hayat, canceled my column. The government banned me from Twitter when I cautioned against an overly enthusiastic embrace of then-President-elect Donald Trump. So I spent six months silent, reflecting on the state of my country and the stark choices before me.

It was painful for me several years ago when several friends were arrested. I said nothing. I didn’t want to lose my job or my freedom. I worried about my family.

I have made a different choice now. I have left my home, my family and my job, and I am raising my voice. To do otherwise would betray those who languish in prison. I can speak when so many cannot. I want you to know that Saudi Arabia has not always been as it is now. We Saudis deserve better.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...earable/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c3600a15ded1
 
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mikeybot

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#17
Kind of surprising that the Turks aren't just going along with them trying to cover it up.
 

Discoman

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SKEPTIC

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#19
Kind of surprising that the Turks aren't just going along with them trying to cover it up.
That's because of the Muslim Brotherhood link.

Muslim Brotherhood
Turkey is sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist organization that several Gulf Arab states, including Saudi Arabia, have banned and designated as a terrorist group. While the Brotherhood renounced violence decades ago, some of its offshoots haven’t. Saudi Arabia’s absolute monarchy stepped up its opposition to the Brotherhood as it emerged more powerful from the 2011 Arab Spring revolts that toppled autocratic regimes.


The Islamic movement won elections in Egypt and held power for a year before it was ousted in mid-2013. As military leader Abdel-Fattah El-Sisi took off his uniform and became president, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states provided billions of dollars in assistance. Under El-Sisi, Egyptian forces killed hundreds of Brotherhood supporters and detained thousands more.

In contrast, Turkey welcomed Muslim Brotherhood members fleeing persecution in the Middle East. Erdogan, as an elected Islamist leader, claims an affinity with the Brotherhood. His ruling party sees itself as a product of the same demographic forces that brought the organization to power in Egypt.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...disappearance-deepens-major-middle-east-rifts

In truth, Khashoggi never had much time for western-style pluralistic democracy. In the 1970s he joined the Muslim Brotherhood, which exists to rid the Islamic world of western influence. He was a political Islamist until the end, recently praising the Muslim Brotherhood in the Washington Post. He championed the ‘moderate’ Islamist opposition in Syria, whose crimes against humanity are a matter of record. Khashoggi frequently sugarcoated his Islamist beliefs with constant references to freedom and democracy. But he never hid that he was in favour of a Muslim Brotherhood arc throughout the Middle East. His recurring plea to bin Salman in his columns was to embrace not western-style democracy, but the rise of political Islam which the Arab Spring had inadvertently given rise to. For Khashoggi, secularism was the enemy.


He had been a journalist in the 1980s and 1990s, but then became more of a player than a spectator. Before working with a succession of Saudi princes, he edited Saudi newspapers. The exclusive remit a Saudi government–appointed newspaper editor has is to ensure nothing remotely resembling honest journalism makes it into the pages. Khashoggi put the money in the bank — making a handsome living was always his top priority. Actions, anyway, speak louder than words.


It was Yasin Aktay — a former MP for Turkey’s ruling Justice and Development party (AKP) — whom Khashoggi told his fiancée to call if he did not emerge from the consulate. The AKP is, in effect, the Turkish branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. His most trusted friend, then, was an adviser to President Erdogan, who is fast becoming known as the most vicious persecutor of journalists on earth. Khashoggi never meaningfully criticised Erdogan. So we ought not to see this as the assassination of a liberal reformer.


Khashoggi had this undeserved status in the West because of the publicity surrounding his sacking as editor of the Saudi daily Al Watan back in 2003. (I broke the news of his removal for Reuters. I’d worked alongside Khashoggi at the Saudi daily Arab News during the preceding years.) He was dismissed because he allowed a columnist to criticise an Islamist thinker considered to be the founding father of Wahhabism. Thus, overnight, Khashoggi became known as a liberal progressive.


The Muslim Brotherhood, though, has always been at odds with the Wahhabi movement. Khashoggi and his fellow travellers believe in imposing Islamic rule by engaging in the democratic process. The Wahhabis loathe democracy as a western invention. Instead, they choose to live life as it supposedly existed during the time of the Muslim prophet. In the final analysis, though, they are different means to achieving the same goal: Islamist theocracy. This matters because, although bin Salman has rejected Wahhabism — to the delight of the West — he continues to view the Muslim Brotherhood as the main threat most likely to derail his vision for a new Saudi Arabia. Most of the Islamic clerics in Saudi Arabia who have been imprisoned over the past two years — Khashoggi’s friends — have historic ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. Khashoggi had therefore emerged as a de facto leader of the Saudi branch. Due to his profile and influence, he was the biggest political threat to bin Salman’s rule outside of the royal family.
https://spectator.us/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi/
 

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
Apr 22, 2002
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#20
I wonder if the lefties have realized yet that the only reason we might be in a position to do something about this is that frakking has ended our dependence on Saudi oil?
 

mikeybot

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#21
I wonder if the lefties have realized yet that the only reason we might be in a position to do something about this is that frakking has ended our dependence on Saudi oil?
Of course not, fracking is bad mm'kay
 

SKEPTIC

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#22
TURKS: RECORDINGS PROVE KHASHOGGI MURDERED (Drudge Headline)

ISTANBUL - The Turkish government has told U.S. officials that it has audio and video recordings that prove Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul this month, according to U.S. and Turkish officials.

The recordings show that a Saudi security team detained Khashoggi in the consulate after he walked in on Oct. 2 to obtain an official document before his upcoming wedding, then killed him and dismembered his body, the officials said.
The audio recording in particular provides some of the most persuasive and gruesome evidence that the Saudi team is responsible for Khashoggi's death, the officials said.


"The voice recording from inside the embassy lays out what happened to Jamal after he entered," said one person with knowledge of the recording who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss highly sensitive intelligence.


"You can hear his voice and the voices of men speaking Arabic," this person said. "You can hear how he was interrogated, tortured and then murdered."


A second person briefed on the recording said men could be heard beating Khashoggi.


The journalist has had long-standing ties to the Saudi royal family, but has written critically of the current government and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.


The existence of such evidence would explain why Turkish officials were quick to blame Saudi Arabia for Khashoggi's killing. But Turkish officials are wary of releasing the recordings, fearing they could divulge how the Turks spy on foreign entities in their country, the officials said.




It's not clear that U.S. officials have seen the footage or listened to the audio, but Turkish officials have described their contents to their American counterparts.


Saudi officials have denied any involvement in the disappearance of Khashoggi, saying he left the consulate shortly after entering.


Turkey said Thursday it has agreed to a request by Saudi Arabia to form a joint committee to probe what happened to Khashoggi.


Mohammed has billed himself as a reformer and moderating force in the country, and he has become a key strategic partner in particular to Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law and senior adviser.


Kushner has tried to promote Mohammed to skeptical national security officials, who have long viewed him as an impetuous and ruthless leader who has an overly simplistic view of the complex challenges the United States faces in the Middle East.




During a bill signing Thursday in the Oval Office, President Donald Trump called Khashoggi's suspected murder "a terrible thing," but stopped short of assigning blame.


"We're looking at it very strongly," Trump said. "We'll be having a report out soon. We're working with Turkey, we're working with Saudi Arabia. What happened is a terrible thing, assuming that happened. I mean, maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised, but somehow I tend to doubt it."


Within the White House, on Capitol Hill and among U.S. intelligence officials there is a growing belief that Khashoggi is dead and that Saudi Arabia is to blame.


That conclusion is driven in part by U.S. intelligence reports before Khashoggi's disappearance that show Mohammed ordered an operation to lure Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia, where he was to be detained. U.S. officials familiar with the reports described them to The Washington Post.


One U.S. official said there was no intelligence that showed the Saudis wanted to lure Khashoggi to the consulate in Istanbul. Intelligence officials and experts have speculated in recent days that the 15-man Saudi security team that Turkish officials say was sent to Istanbul may have intended to capture Khashoggi and bring him back to Saudi Arabia, and not to kill him.


The person who was briefed on the audio recording said it shows that after killing Khashoggi, the security team went to the home of the Saudi consul general, where staff were told to go home early. There is evidence of at least one phone call, as well, from inside the consulate, this person said.


Despite a growing demand for information about Khashoggi's whereabouts, U.S. officials had few public answers Thursday more than a week after he went missing. The State Department said that it expects the Saudi ambassador to the United States to return from a trip home and provide information about Khashoggi's status without delay.


"We have said to him that we expect information upon his return to the United States," State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said in a briefing with reporters.


She added that the United States has offered to provide law enforcement resources to Turkey, but declined to say whether investigators were on the ground there.


On Capitol Hill, some lawmakers were frustrated that the White House hadn't disclosed more information about Khashoggi before and after he disappeared. Some lawmakers said the administration should consider curtailing sales of weapons to the kingdom.


"Arms sales are certainly going to be, I think, a huge concern if there is responsibility that is irrefutable," Sen. Cory Gardner, R-Colo., said of any potential evidence supporting Saudi Arabia's role in Khashoggi's murder.


Gardner complained that the Trump administration had left senators in the dark about intelligence pointing to a Saudi role and demanded that officials give lawmakers a fuller account of what they knew of possible threats to his safety before he disappeared.


"There's a lot of information that we don't know that we need to get. There's an information gap that needs to be filled promptly by the administration, by the intelligence community," Gardner said. "The immediate question has to be, what exists. The answer to that needs to be, acting on the information that we had, what did we do with it."


Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said that he had seen no definitive proof of who killed Khashoggi, but "everything that I've seen points to the Saudis . . . We have no evidence that points anywhere but to them."


On Wednesday, lawmakers from both sides of the aisle wrote to Trump and asked him to impose sanctions against anyone found responsible for Khashoggi's disappearance, including Saudi leaders. The lawmakers invoked the Global Magnistky Act, giving the president 120 days to make a decision.


On Tuesday, Kushner and national security adviser John Bolton called Mohammed and encouraged him to be transparent about what Riyadh knows about Khashoggi, said officials familiar with the call.


U.S. officials, however, pushed back on calls to halt arms sales to Riyadh, calling such demands premature.


"I think they're jumping to conclusions," said Nauert, the State Department spokeswoman. "This is entirely a hypothetical situation at this point. We don't know what happened. We don't have the facts of the case."


Trump also dismissed the possibility.


"They're spending $110 billion purchasing military equipment and other things," he said of the Saudis during a bill signing in the Oval Office. "If we don't sell it to them, they'll say, 'Well, thank you very much. We'll buy it from Russia.' Or 'Thank you very much. We'll buy it from China.' That doesn't help us - not when it comes to jobs and not when it comes to our companies losing out on that work."


---


The Washington Post's Mekhennet reported from Istanbul. Kareem Fahim in Istanbul and Carol D. Leonnig, Karoun Demirjian, Ellen Nakashima and Julie Tate in Washington contributed to this report.
https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Turkey-agrees-to-Saudi-request-to-jointly-13300365.php
 

SKEPTIC

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#23
CNN, quoting Turkish sources, said that the victim had his Apple Watch deliberately recording audio when he stepped into the consulate. That gruesome recording of the torture and murder was uploaded to the cloud, and later transmitted from the cloud (by Turkish investigators) to his iPhone which he had given to his fiancee who was outside waiting for him. If true, this would mean the victim has provided the evidence to solve his own murder.

I can't find any English translation of this Turkish source or anyone else reporting this yet fyi
 

SKEPTIC

Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand.
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#24
CNN: Turkey has 'shocking' audio and visual evidence of Saudi journalist's killing

more details but nothing on the Apple Watch specifically

EDIT: updated info in link above re: Apple Watch

Turkish officials are investigating whether Khashoggi's Apple Watch reveals clues as to what happened to him inside the Saudi consulate, examining whether data from the smartwatch could have been transmitted to a cloud, or his personal phone, which was with Cengiz outside, Reuters reported, citing two senior Turkish officials.
 
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