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Senator: "Shut up, you don't get a lawyer."

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Josh_R, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. Josh_R

    Josh_R Registered User

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    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justic...itizens-Senate-bill-raises-questions/(page)/2

    http://reason.com/archives/2011/12/05/the-senates-unconstitutional-support-for

    http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...tion-and-american-citizens-sen-rand-paul?pg=2

    tl;dr : The Senate passed a provision that would allow for the INDEFINITE military detention of American citizens who are SUSPECTED of association with terrorists/terrorist activity, without a trial, even if they are non-combatants who are captured in America (not on a foreign battlefield). Needless to say, this completely eradicates the Fifth Amendment.
     
  2. whiskeyguy

    whiskeyguy PR representative for Drunk Whiskeyguy.

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    So fucked up. I may understand if someone joined a foreign army abroad and waged war against us, but no way is this constitutional when it applied to citizens within our borders.
     
  3. d0uche_n0zzle

    d0uche_n0zzle **Negative_Creep**

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    Just because they pass a law does not make it constitutional.
     
  4. Josh_R

    Josh_R Registered User

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    It does until someone collects up the money to pay lawyers to fight it all the way through the system to the Supreme Court and HOPE it gets defeated. Who would have guessed that somehow growing your own wheat to make your own bread could somehow fall under INTERSTATE commerce, or that growing marijuana in your own house for your own use ant never selling it to anyone somehow became the business of the federal government?
     
  5. d0uche_n0zzle

    d0uche_n0zzle **Negative_Creep**

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    Poppycock.
     
  6. Norm Stansfield

    Norm Stansfield 私は亀が好きだ。

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    I don't get that logic. Why would a traitor who is fighting the US right here have his habeas corpus rights (the right to petition a federal court for a writ of habeas corpus), and a traitor who is fighting abroad not?

    Either way, the Constitution does not make that differentiation, it allows the government to suspend the habeas corpus rights of all traitors and enemy combatants, whether captured here or abroad.

    That's not a summation, that's an editorialization, with a couple of false claims thrown in for effect. The law would only deprive captured enemy combatants of a civil trial, not a military one. And it's also false that that they would only have to be suspected of terrorist involvement. The standards of knowledge of said involvement would be different from those in the federal court system, because we are at war, and in war standards of certainty have to be different. But the military and the intelligence services do still have standards, beyond just "suspicion", and they do still have oversight (within the military and the CIA, and above it in Congress).

    In conclusion, here's the actual tl;dr version:

    The Senate passed a provision that would allow for the lawful military detention of American citizens who betray the nation in the war against Islamic terrorism, and deny them access to civilian courts for the duration of the conflict. This is perfectly in concordance with the provisions of the US Constitution, as well as established precedent throughout US history, regarding the treatment of traitors in war.
     
  7. Don the Radio Guy

    Donator

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    I really wish they'd just extend normal rights to combatants captured on American soil for expediency reasons, but Norm is right, it's not unconstitutional. The ones captured fighting on foreign battlefields? Fuck 'em.
     
  8. Norm Stansfield

    Norm Stansfield 私は亀が好きだ。

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    I would just like to add that I hate the idea of an indefinite war as much as anyone. But the main reason why this fucking war is still going on is the constant whining, both from Liberals and Libertarians, about our methods and means of fighting, the questioning of the need for the war in the first place and even the moral justification for it. That's what caused both Presidents and the military leadership to fight a half assed war that's never going to end.

    If this war was fought on terms hawkish conservatives in this country would be willing to fight it on, if left alone by everyone else, it would've been won already.
     
  9. mascan42

    mascan42 Registered User

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    Came looking for rational debate; left disappointed.
     
  10. Don the Radio Guy

    Donator

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    You're more than welcome to come forward with some fact based information of your own. I won't hold my breath. Instead you'll just be wrong and call everyone else mean for pointing it out.
     
  11. Bluestreak

    Bluestreak This space intentionally left blank.

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    What terms would you suggest, Senator?
     
  12. Norm Stansfield

    Norm Stansfield 私は亀が好きだ。

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    Fixed.
     
  13. BIV

    BIV I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.

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    If facts fail to meet your standard for rational debate, you will always leave disappointed. Leave your emotions at the door son, men are talking.
     
  14. Party Rooster

    Party Rooster Unleash The Beast

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    It just warms my cockles to see Democrats and Republicans finally getting together in a bipartisan fashion to solve this nation's problems.

    wassat?
     
  15. Josh_R

    Josh_R Registered User

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    You're a fucking idiot. What have libertarians been holding the military back from doing? We shouldn't question the need for the war or the moral justification for it when we were blatantly lied to about the reason for going to war? I haven't even heard a single definition of what it means to "win" the war on terrorism. As long as ANYONE in the world is willing to strap a bomb to themselves, plant an IED, or shoot up a bunch of people, there will be terrorism in the world.

    From the Congressional Research Service:
    Why is it that in order to punish those suspected of supporting terrorism we need to suspend the Constitution? What is so special that Americans arrested in America for suspected crimes that took place in America do not deserve the rights protected under the Constitution? I do not believe that there is any instance where a person's Constitutional rights should be suspended. What the fuck is the point of a constitution if you can just make a law that allows you to ignore it, especially when you choose not to amend the Constitution, just simply ignore it?
     
  16. whiskeyguy

    whiskeyguy PR representative for Drunk Whiskeyguy.

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    I admittedly am not fully educated when it comes to the Constitution and Habeas Corpus, but from what I understand if you're fighting on behalf of another country who is invading/attacking America, your right to Habeas Corpus can be denied. What I'm worried about is expanding that definition to sympathizing, providing funding, hateful speech, etc. I'm not saying someone who helps terrorist shouldn't be prosecuted, but I can see this being used against US Citizens who are of the survivalist types (often labeled as militias). Could this be used to hold a US Citizen from Idaho indefinitely for building an arsenal that could be used against the United States (aka collecting firearms)?

    Our justice system is a reactionary one, and rightfully so. Once we get into preventative justice, rights of everyone are compromised. Military operations abroad and police operations domestically have to function differently.
     
  17. Josh_R

    Josh_R Registered User

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    Nice try on your "unbiased" summation of the bill. In order for you to state that someone has "betrayed the nation", you must first prove it. That is hard to do (at least in America) without a trial where the government actually has to PROVE that you did something wrong. Apparently their word is good enough for you.

    Where in the Constitution does it say that it is perfectly fine to suspend the 5th Amendment?
     
  18. Josh_R

    Josh_R Registered User

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    That is the exact point raised by Senator Paul:
     
  19. Voss's Tumor

    Voss's Tumor Banned

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    I wish I was running against this guy for his seat. I'd do nothing but run commercials of him saying this with my name for Senate following.
     
  20. JonBenetRamsey

    JonBenetRamsey well shit the bed

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    don't talk to muslims. got it.
     
  21. Josh_R

    Josh_R Registered User

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    Conservatives love the Constitution except when they want to completely suspend it BECAUSE TERRORISM!!!!!

    http://reason.com/archives/2011/12/06/conservatives-drop-their-love-for-the-co

     

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