Movie Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi , Written and Directed by Rian Johnson: December 15, 2017

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
So you turned what could have been the climactic moment in the film into a throwaway line that could have been easily drowned out.
I think it would have been effective if we 'saw' her parents or got anything more definitive than "alcoholic junk merchants or you know whatever maybe." The lack of commitment to the statement bothered me, not the nobody concept itself.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
While I don't want to set anyone off, but that article does point very much to the idea that there was no set plan for who Rey was. Perhaps JJ had his own thoughts as to who she was but apparently didn't force anything on Johnson (though that was before he knew he would be back for IX. Wonder what would have happened he did know during the writing stage for TLJ)
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
While I don't want to set anyone off, but that article does point very much to the idea that there was no set plan for who Rey was. Perhaps JJ had his own thoughts as to who she was but apparently didn't force anything on Johnson (though that was before he knew he would be back for IX. Wonder what would have happened he did know during the writing stage for TLJ)
You’re not setting anyone off. Some people choose to take everything they see and hear at face value, some are more skeptical by nature, especially when it comes to JJ Abrams. There’s no right or wrong until Episode 9 comes out. Nothing I see or hear until then will sway me even a little bit. If I’m right, it’s a brilliantly planned trilogy of movies. If I’m wrong, they made it up as they went and had no fucking idea what they’re doing.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
This was one of their best episodes yet. They hit nearly all the points people were making, and made it funny.
We're totally HitWing TLJ, aren't we?

I mean worst case scenario, we end up rewatching TLJ, which I'm fine with.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
We're totally HitWing TLJ, aren't we?

I mean worst case scenario, we end up rewatching TLJ, which I'm fine with.
I feel like we have to. Even though I do think the movie could eventually be redeemed somewhat by Episode 9, there's just too much to mock.
 

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
I feel like we have to. Even though I do think the movie could eventually be redeemed somewhat by Episode 9, there's just too much to mock.
Oh, sweet Jesus. You guys need to do a special Saturday episode so I can play.

This movie fucking broke me.
 
While I don't want to set anyone off, but that article does point very much to the idea that there was no set plan for who Rey was. Perhaps JJ had his own thoughts as to who she was but apparently didn't force anything on Johnson (though that was before he knew he would be back for IX. Wonder what would have happened he did know during the writing stage for TLJ)
Yes. Exactly what I wondered. Why wasnt there an outline all along? Take it into account with Liddys thought about the e-nu: we do x in the movie and save y for a series. We can look at z for a series of books.

So.... basically I can focus all my hate on Johnson then?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
Oh, sweet Jesus. You guys need to do a special Saturday episode so I can play.

This movie fucking broke me.
It broke you like a moon on a Wookie's head.

Yeah, we'll save it for you, you wily son of a bitch.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
Jesus. The only way that could have sucked more is if Rose was in the scene.
I just posted. I did not attest to its quality.

But I liked it. I especially liked the editing of Phasma shooting the four Stormtroopers like it was something from Gene Wilder in Blazing Saddles.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
@Floyd1977 having to once again explain movies to Lids got me thinking about The Last Jedi and I wonder if maybe there’s a way we can meet in the middle sort of.

We got into it over the Captain America trilogy. If you’re not familiar, Cap’s friend Bucky is presumed killed in the first film, revived as the villain in the second, and becomes the main catalyst for the feud between Cap and Iron Man in the third film. Lids point seems to be that they didn’t sell the Cap and Bucky friendship enough in the first two films to convince him that Cap would go rogue for him in the third film - even though...Cap goes rogue for Bucky in the first film and nearly fails his mission in the second out of concern for him.

But none of that matters here - the point I’m making here is how much to build something up in the first movie of a trilogy. I used Star Wars and Empire as an example of perfect execution, even if it wasn’t necessarily intended. The Big reveal in Empire works so well because the last two thirds of Star Wars and the first two thirds of Empire allow you to forget about Luke’s father.

So IF there’s a plan for Rey to be a somebody, and the general plan was to introduce the mystery in movie 1, build on it in movie movie 2, and reveal it in movie 3, then what did The Force Awakens need to do? Make you forget about Rey’s parents. And it failed to do so. The interwebs were filled with theories from the moment the movie hit. So yes - Rian Johnson had to throw out most of JJ’s original outline and come up with a new direction. Because he realized that trying to continue building the mystery wasn’t going to work. Too many people were consciously aware of the mystery - including Rey.

So in a sense we’re both potentially right. They may have had a plan, and realized they needed to adjust it and make up a new one. Why kill Luke? To make you forget about Rey’s parents. And guess what? It worked.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
@Floyd1977 having to once again explain movies to Lids got me thinking about The Last Jedi and I wonder if maybe there’s a way we can meet in the middle sort of.

We got into it over the Captain America trilogy. If you’re not familiar, Cap’s friend Bucky is presumed killed in the first film, revived as the villain in the second, and becomes the main catalyst for the feud between Cap and Iron Man in the third film. Lids point seems to be that they didn’t sell the Cap and Bucky friendship enough in the first two films to convince him that Cap would go rogue for him in the third film - even though...Cap goes rogue for Bucky in the first film and nearly fails his mission in the second out of concern for him.

But none of that matters here - the point I’m making here is how much to build something up in the first movie of a trilogy. I used Star Wars and Empire as an example of perfect execution, even if it wasn’t necessarily intended. The Big reveal in Empire works so well because the last two thirds of Star Wars and the first two thirds of Empire allow you to forget about Luke’s father.

So IF there’s a plan for Rey to be a somebody, and the general plan was to introduce the mystery in movie 1, build on it in movie movie 2, and reveal it in movie 3, then what did The Force Awakens need to do? Make you forget about Rey’s parents. And it failed to do so. The interwebs were filled with theories from the moment the movie hit. So yes - Rian Johnson had to throw out most of JJ’s original outline and come up with a new direction. Because he realized that trying to continue building the mystery wasn’t going to work. Too many people were consciously aware of the mystery - including Rey.

So in a sense we’re both potentially right. They may have had a plan, and realized they needed to adjust it and make up a new one. Why kill Luke? To make you forget about Rey’s parents. And guess what? It worked.
In retrospect I think introducing that whole mystery in the first place was stupid. The reason Luke/Vader worked was because it came out of nowhere (I don't want to restart the arguement, but I maintain that it's because Lucas had not conceived the idea during the making of ANH) and there was nothing to contradict the notion to contradict the notion of it other than Ben telling Luke a half truth. Then it worked narratively by giving Luke motivation in ROTJ.

When they set up the mystery in TFA it comes off to me now as a shoehorned attempt to have a reveal later. I suppose Rey's mystery family gives her a reason to hang around on Jakku, but it doesn't seem wholly necessary, I'd just assume she had no means of leaving. And I knew that there was virtually no way to pay it off in a satisfactory manner as far as Rey being related to a core OT character went. That's why I agreed with what Johnson did, I thought it was the only indisputable answer. But it still pissed off a lot of people. Maybe JJ changes it, maybe he doesn't. Maybe it was planned all along, maybe it wasn't. At this point though I don't see Rey having a relation to a core OT character advances the story or her character. The only exception that would provide narrative significance is her being a Solo, but JJ would have to come up with a hell of a convincing yarn to explain why Han and Leia dumped Rey off on Jakku (He had better come up with something better than to hide her from Kylo as it would ape the prior movies. And don't fucking give me the "It's like poetry, it rhymes!!") or why Rey and Leia don't sense they're mother and daughter (and don't give me "Leia hugged Rey instead of Chewie"). Or why Luke doesn't sense who she is or even mention that Kylo has a sister. And on top of that it only leaves one direction for Rey, to redeem Kylo which means we get a remake of ROTJ.

They never should have introduced that mystery. But I think we can all agree that Ep IX needs more Rose
 

crippledalbino

The God of 42nd Street
Donator

In retrospect I think introducing that whole mystery in the first place was stupid. The reason Luke/Vader worked was because it came out of nowhere (I don't want to restart the arguement, but I maintain that it's because Lucas had not conceived the idea during the making of ANH) and there was nothing to contradict the notion to contradict the notion of it other than Ben telling Luke a half truth. Then it worked narratively by giving Luke motivation in ROTJ.

When they set up the mystery in TFA it comes off to me now as a shoehorned attempt to have a reveal later. I suppose Rey's mystery family gives her a reason to hang around on Jakku, but it doesn't seem wholly necessary, I'd just assume she had no means of leaving. And I knew that there was virtually no way to pay it off in a satisfactory manner as far as Rey being related to a core OT character went. That's why I agreed with what Johnson did, I thought it was the only indisputable answer. But it still pissed off a lot of people. Maybe JJ changes it, maybe he doesn't. Maybe it was planned all along, maybe it wasn't. At this point though I don't see Rey having a relation to a core OT character advances the story or her character. The only exception that would provide narrative significance is her being a Solo, but JJ would have to come up with a hell of a convincing yarn to explain why Han and Leia dumped Rey off on Jakku (He had better come up with something better than to hide her from Kylo as it would ape the prior movies. And don't fucking give me the "It's like poetry, it rhymes!!") or why Rey and Leia don't sense they're mother and daughter (and don't give me "Leia hugged Rey instead of Chewie"). Or why Luke doesn't sense who she is or even mention that Kylo has a sister. And on top of that it only leaves one direction for Rey, to redeem Kylo which means we get a remake of ROTJ.

They never should have introduced that mystery. But I think we can all agree that Ep IX needs more Rose
Quick point: Darth Vader is dutch or some fuckin' language for "Dark Father" so the clue was sort of in the name from the beginning, from one perspective.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
Quick point: Darth Vader is dutch or some fuckin' language for "Dark Father" so the clue was sort of in the name from the beginning, from one perspective.
Yeah, I knew this, but I don't think that's conclusive evidence.

And you're supposed to say "From a certian point of view"
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
Quick point: Darth Vader is dutch or some fuckin' language for "Dark Father" so the clue was sort of in the name from the beginning, from one perspective.
Lucas, or as I call him, Puke-Ass, high five, probably thought it sounded kewl.
 

crippledalbino

The God of 42nd Street
Donator
Yeah, I knew this, but I don't think that's conclusive evidence.

And you're supposed to say "From a certian point of view"
Certainly not fully conclusive, but you can't really ignore it either. There's a chance it was intentional. Senator Palpatine as the Emperor, for example, was a thought in the early days even though it wasn't even mentioned in ANH.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
Certainly not fully conclusive, but you can't really ignore it either. There's a chance it was intentional. Senator Palpatine as the Emperor, for example, was a thought in the early days even though it wasn't even mentioned in ANH.
The Emperor was mentioned in ANH. But anyway, "Father" can certianly have more than one contextual meaning. But I still think Lucas hadn't thought of it at the time. I don't think the initial Leigh Brackett TESB script had it either (I could be misremembering that though).
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
Certainly not fully conclusive, but you can't really ignore it either. There's a chance it was intentional. Senator Palpatine as the Emperor, for example, was a thought in the early days even though it wasn't even mentioned in ANH.
Well The Emperor was a figure. Well more a Specter. We knew Vader and Tarkin were underlings. Whether it was Palps he had in mind? Probably not. The original Empire Strikes Back had that weird Not Palpatine Emperor hologram. They never even use Palpatine in the trilogy. I have no idea where it became universal.
 

crippledalbino

The God of 42nd Street
Donator
Well The Emperor was a figure. Well more a Specter. We knew Vader and Tarkin were underlings. Whether it was Palps he had in mind? Probably not. The original Empire Strikes Back had that weird Not Palpatine Emperor hologram. They never even use Palpatine in the trilogy. I have no idea where it became universal.
I thought Palpatine had been established long before he showed up in anything, but an internet search is not helping my case, so perhaps I'm on crack. I know he's named in the novelization, but those came out after the original trilogy.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
I thought Palpatine had been established long before he showed up in anything, but an internet search is not helping my case, so perhaps I'm on crack. I know he's named in the novelization, but those came out after the original trilogy.
The Emperor was never identified by name in the OT.
 
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