Movie Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi , Written and Directed by Rian Johnson: December 15, 2017

Stormrider666

Hell is home.
Donator
I'm trying to remember if in all the EU books that I read, did they ever ID the Emperor by name. Also did any of us know before going into the The Phantom Menace that Senator Palpatine would become the Emperor.
 
I'm trying to remember if in all the EU books that I read, did they ever ID the Emperor by name. Also did any of us know before going into the The Phantom Menace that Senator Palpatine would become the Emperor.
the 1983 novelization for Return of the Jedi by James Kahn:

The Emperor sat, regarding this view, as Vader approached from behind. The Lord of the Sith kneeled and waited. The Emperor let him wait. He perused the vista before him with a sense of glory beyond all reckoning: this was all his. And more glorious still, all his by his own hand.

For it wasn't always so. Back in the days when he was merely Senator Palpatine, the galaxy had been a Republic of stars, cared for and protected by the Jedi Knighthood that had watched over it for centuries. But inevitably it had grown too large - too massive a bureaucracy had been required, over too many years, in order to maintain the Republic. Corruption had set in.
 

jnoble

Lingering longer for a longering linger
I thought Palpatine had been established long before he showed up in anything, but an internet search is not helping my case, so perhaps I'm on crack. I know he's named in the novelization, but those came out after the original trilogy.
I think his name was Frank
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
I'm trying to remember if in all the EU books that I read, did they ever ID the Emperor by name. Also did any of us know before going into the The Phantom Menace that Senator Palpatine would become the Emperor.
Between ROTJ and TPM the name Palpatine has been referenced in books, comics, video games etc.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
Between ROTJ and TPM the name Palpatine has been referenced in books, comics, video games etc.
I knew it was Palpatine from when I was a kid. Two of the stupidest things Lucas did if he was trying to build a mystery about The Phantom Menace was a) naming him Palpatine and b) casting the guy who played him in RotJ. Because were we supposed to be surprised by the reveal? Since it took all three movies to come out. But we all knew the answer from before frame one.
 
I knew it was Palpatine from when I was a kid. Two of the stupidest things Lucas did if he was trying to build a mystery about The Phantom Menace was a) naming him Palpatine and b) casting the guy who played him in RotJ. Because were we supposed to be surprised by the reveal? Since it took all three movies to come out. But we all knew the answer from before frame one.
I think the initial rumors were that Naboo Senator Palpatine was the good one and the Emperor was a corrupt evil clone. It didn't play out that way by Ep 2 though.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
I think the initial rumors were that Naboo Senator Palpatine was the good one and the Emperor was a corrupt evil clone. It didn't play out that way by Ep 2 though.
You mean they were going to actually do something interesting with the Clone Wars? Because what we got in the movies was the biggest waste.
 

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
Must you people continue to bump this thread and remind me this movie exists?
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
The casino scene alone will generate 20 pages.
I was thinking about why Luke Skywalker's death didn't have the impact it should have had. And no, it's not because he died alone in a blink-or-you'll-miss it moment. It's because Luke Skywalker...is not dead.

When Obi-Wan Kenobi sacrificed himself in ANH, it meant something because you did not know he was going to come back. When he showed up as a Force Ghost, you got the sense he couldn't really interact with a material world, and that he's at a place of such extreme Zen that he wouldn't if he could. You need that calmness and sense of peace in order to pull off being a Force Ghost. But also a sadness. Of course years later you realize it's because Guiness was old and didn't care. But it kind of fit, even with the demeanor of Sebastian Shaw and Yoda at the end of ROTJ though they said and did nothing.

In TLJ, with Yoda all bouncy and active and shooting lightning to burn down trees. That sense of extreme oneness and utter detachment is no longer crucial for Force Ghosts. It's essentially the same as being alive. Luke dies. So what? You know he'll be back in Episode 9 training and teaching Rey. Especially now that Fisher's dead.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
I was thinking about why Luke Skywalker's death didn't have the impact it should have had. And no, it's not because he died alone in a blink-or-you'll-miss it moment. It's because Luke Skywalker...is not dead.

When Obi-Wan Kenobi sacrificed himself in ANH, it meant something because you did not know he was going to come back. When he showed up as a Force Ghost, you got the sense he couldn't really interact with a material world, and that he's at a place of such extreme Zen that he wouldn't if he could. You need that calmness and sense of peace in order to pull off being a Force Ghost. But also a sadness. Of course years later you realize it's because Guiness was old and didn't care. But it kind of fit, even with the demeanor of Sebastian Shaw and Yoda at the end of ROTJ though they said and did nothing.

In TLJ, with Yoda all bouncy and active and shooting lightning to burn down trees. That sense of extreme oneness and utter detachment is no longer crucial for Force Ghosts. It's essentially the same as being alive. Luke dies. So what? You know he'll be back in Episode 9 training and teaching Rey. Especially now that Fisher's dead.
I never really thought about this, but now I’m thinking about it...

The Force Ghost rules changed as the trilogy progressed. Maybe it had less to do with Obi Wan and more to do with Luke.

Like in ANH, Luke was a force rookie, so Obi Wan appears to him just as a voice in his head.

In Empire, his connection to the Force and understanding grows, and he’s able to briefly visualize Obi Wan on Hoth and then eavesdrop on a private conversation between Yoda and FGOW.

In Jedi, Luke’s training is complete, allowing him to recognize their spirits as part of the Force and fully interact with them. I think it’s important to note that Luke was the only one who saw them at the end.

In TFA, Luke’s power and understanding of the Force goes beyond that of his old Masters, allowing him to project himself and be seen even by non Force users. As for the lightning, perhaps Luke called that down himself. Or perhaps they were intentionally setting the stage for the Force Ghost battle royale we joked about a few months ago.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
I never really thought about this, but now I’m thinking about it...
My job is done.

The Force Ghost rules changed as the trilogy progressed. Maybe it had less to do with Obi Wan and more to do with Luke.

Like in ANH, Luke was a force rookie, so Obi Wan appears to him just as a voice in his head.

In Empire, his connection to the Force and understanding grows, and he’s able to briefly visualize Obi Wan on Hoth and then eavesdrop on a private conversation between Yoda and FGOW.

In Jedi, Luke’s training is complete, allowing him to recognize their spirits as part of the Force and fully interact with them. I think it’s important to note that Luke was the only one who saw them at the end.

In TFA, Luke’s power and understanding of the Force goes beyond that of his old Masters, allowing him to project himself and be seen even by non Force users. As for the lightning, perhaps Luke called that down himself. Or perhaps they were intentionally setting the stage for the Force Ghost battle royale we joked about a few months ago.
We should get @BIV in to chime in.

But while I get your point, if Luke is that powerful, and has such control over the Force, doesn't that render his death moot? Can they resist bringing him back?
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
My job is done.


We should get @BIV in to chime in.

But while I get your point, if Luke is that powerful, and has such control over the Force, doesn't that render his death moot? Can they resist bringing him back?
By the same token, Force rookie Rey can only hear Yoda and Obi Wan as voices in her head in TFA.

I’m guessing BiV will come in and either tell me my theory has been widely known since 1983, or that I’m a complete moron, because in Tales of the Jedi Innkeeper Book #4, the Innkeeper sees a Force ghost even though he has no Force abilities.

But then I will counter and say “Maybe Broom Boy is his grandson!”

And I see your edit, and yes - I think Luke’s powers will clearly allow him to be a part of episode 9. I was only saying there’s a natural progression to it over the 6 movies that I can kind of wrap my head around and even dig. As I said, I felt nothing when Luke died. Maybe I wasn’t supposed to.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
By the same token, Force rookie Rey can only hear Yoda and Obi Wan as voices in her head in TFA.

I’m guessing BiV will come in and either tell me my theory has been widely known since 1983, or that I’m a complete moron, because in Tales of the Jedi Innkeeper Book #4, the Innkeeper sees a Force ghost even though he has no Force abilities.

But then I will counter and say “Maybe Broom Boy is his grandson!”

And I see your edit, and yes - I think Luke’s powers will clearly allow him to be a part of episode 9. I was only saying there’s a natural progression to it over the 6 movies that I can kind of wrap my head around and even dig. As I said, I felt nothing when Luke died. Maybe I wasn’t supposed to.
I like your explanation. I'm just trying to think of a reason why his death didn't hit the way it should have.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
I like your explanation. I'm just trying to think of a reason why his death didn't hit the way it should have.
I think that may go back to your CvS point in a way, where you looked at them from the point of view of someone who didn’t know Bucky and said “did they make me care about Bucky as much as they’re telling me Cap did?” (Or whatever)

Perhaps similarly, Luke’s death at the end of TLJ was meant as emotional farewell to a beloved character from the original films. But did they make any new viewers, especially kids, care about him? Does his death work at all if TFA or TLJ was your first Star Wars film? I think the answer is no.

Han’s death was very impactful, because he spent most of the movie interacting with and building a relationship with Finn and Rey. He shared little screen time with Kylo, but they built that relationship in other ways, through Han’s conversations with Leia and Kylo’s with Rey.

Luke is a dick to Rey through all of TLJ, and when he shows up at the end, he just winks at Threepio, pats Leia on the head, and then goes out and teases Kylo. There’s no meaningful dialogue other than the Rambutan scenes where we learn about the night Kylo turned. While those scenes were great, nothing in them helps us care about Luke. If anything they make Kylo a bit more sympathetic.

So back to the original trilogy. Yoda’s death carries a lot of emotional weight because we see Luke go back to him in Jedi and they have a great moment where you can tell how much affection they have for each other. Imagine if he had keeled over and died after lifting Luke’s X-wing out of the swamp. That’s roughly the equivalent place Rey and Luke’s relationship was at when Luke died.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
I think that may go back to your CvS point in a way, where you looked at them from the point of view of someone who didn’t know Bucky and said “did they make me care about Bucky as much as they’re telling me Cap did?” (Or whatever)

Perhaps similarly, Luke’s death at the end of TLJ was meant as emotional farewell to a beloved character from the original films. But did they make any new viewers, especially kids, care about him? Does his death work at all if TFA or TLJ was your first Star Wars film? I think the answer is no.

Han’s death was very impactful, because he spent most of the movie interacting with and building a relationship with Finn and Rey. He shared little screen time with Kylo, but they built that relationship in other ways, through Han’s conversations with Leia and Kylo’s with Rey.

Luke is a dick to Rey through all of TLJ, and when he shows up at the end, he just winks at Threepio, pats Leia on the head, and then goes out and teases Kylo. There’s no meaningful dialogue other than the Rambutan scenes where we learn about the night Kylo turned. While those scenes were great, nothing in them helps us care about Luke. If anything they make Kylo a bit more sympathetic.

So back to the original trilogy. Yoda’s death carries a lot of emotional weight because we see Luke go back to him in Jedi and they have a great moment where you can tell how much affection they have for each other. Imagine if he had keeled over and died after lifting Luke’s X-wing out of the swamp. That’s roughly the equivalent place Rey and Luke’s relationship was at when Luke died.
I agree with this. I know Luke Skywalker, and I still agree with this. I liked him being bitter and weird, but the death didn't hit.

I also definitely thought the flashback made Kylo more sympathetic. Like I said, that sequence makes a lot more sense to me if Snoke was manipulating Luke's mind as well.

Also the cloak flying away was kind of silly.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
I agree with this. I know Luke Skywalker, and I still agree with this. I liked him being bitter and weird, but the death didn't hit.

I also definitely thought the flashback made Kylo more sympathetic. Like I said, that sequence makes a lot more sense to me if Snoke was manipulating Luke's mind as well.

Also the cloak flying away was kind of silly.
 

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
By the same token, Force rookie Rey can only hear Yoda and Obi Wan as voices in her head in TFA.

I’m guessing BiV will come in and either tell me my theory has been widely known since 1983, or that I’m a complete moron, because in Tales of the Jedi Innkeeper Book #4, the Innkeeper sees a Force ghost even though he has no Force abilities.

But then I will counter and say “Maybe Broom Boy is his grandson!”

And I see your edit, and yes - I think Luke’s powers will clearly allow him to be a part of episode 9. I was only saying there’s a natural progression to it over the 6 movies that I can kind of wrap my head around and even dig. As I said, I felt nothing when Luke died. Maybe I wasn’t supposed to.
I'm wracking my brain, but I think you are right. At least I can't remember a non-force user ever seeing/hearing one.

And you are also right, from what I remember, about the progression of contact.

But the power of the Jedi who died also matters. In the old EU, Anakin had at least two long conversations with Leia before she was trained. Palps was so powerful he forced his ghost into a young clone of himself.

And force projection was a thing in the old EU, but Luke wouldn't be able to do it. Jacen Solo could, though.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
Perhaps similarly, Luke’s death at the end of TLJ was meant as emotional farewell to a beloved character from the original films. But did they make any new viewers, especially kids, care about him? Does his death work at all if TFA or TLJ was your first Star Wars film? I think the answer is no.
Or you could just show your kid the OT before TFA or TLJ. The new fils do assume familiarity with the OT (and even the PT). I would also say Luke's death isn't as impactful because we know he's not really gone, even if he doesn't appear in Ep IX.
 
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