Movie Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi , Written and Directed by Rian Johnson: December 15, 2017

mikeybot

SPANAKOPITA!!!
Since TFA, they've managed to make me excited that there's new star wars movies to almost not giving a shit again.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
That should make the fanboys happy.
Well, I will say that I’m having a difficult time conceiving how IX won’t again be a soft remake, this time of ROTJ. Force Ghost Luke will guide Rey one more time, she’ll confront Kylo and there will be some (not really) mystery of who will turn who. Kylo will make a final redeeming heroic act and die while the resistance mounts one final battle. What other direction could they go into at this point?
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
Well, I will say that I’m having a difficult time conceiving how IX won’t again be a soft remake, this time of ROTJ. Force Ghost Luke will guide Rey one more time, she’ll confront Kylo and there will be some (not really) mystery of who will turn who. Kylo will make a final redeeming heroic act and die while the resistance mounts one final battle. What other direction could they go into at this point?
And that's the biggest sin (ding) of TLJ. Even if the story beats are the same, we should be interested in the individual character's journey within that framework. No character changes in TLJ. For all the bitching about Poe Dameron's emasculation... at the end he leads another ill thought out suicide mission except this time he has Leia's support. I guess at some point he tells people to pull back, but having slightly better strategic sense is not the same as having one's balls torn off.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
I hope broom kid saves the universe.
"And my broom!"

Remember. From Fellowship?



Good shit.

The reason 9 is only a year into the future is so that in 7-10 years, we can have the Jedi Academy trilogy starring Rey and Reginald Broomsworth.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
And that's the biggest sin (ding) of TLJ. Even if the story beats are the same, we should be interested in the individual character's journey within that framework. No character changes in TLJ. For all the bitching about Poe Dameron's emasculation... at the end he leads another ill thought out suicide mission except this time he has Leia's support. I guess at some point he tells people to pull back, but having slightly better strategic sense is not the same as having one's balls torn off.
I like the (ding) reference.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
Both Holdo and Luke sacrifice themselves destroying something they hate to save something they love, and they're the only two people in the ding dang movie to accomplish a ding dang thing. I guess Kylo Ren too by killing Snoke. So 2/3.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
Both Holdo and Luke sacrifice themselves destroying something they hate to save something they love, and they're the only two people in the ding dang movie to accomplish a ding dang thing. I guess Kylo Ren too by killing Snoke. So 2/3.
Exactly. The lame “Love Conquers All” troupe has no place in a sci-fi movie. 2001 didn’t have it. The rest of the Star Wars movies didn’t have it, in fact they made three movies about how one Jedi’s dick fever destroyed the entire order (ok maybe ROTJ sort of had it, but it wasn’t nearly as ham fisted at TLJ). Interstellar was an awesome, hard Sci-Fi movie until they introduced that shit there too.

Hate wins wars. Did we defeat the Nazis by saving shit we loved? In SPR they tried to “save” a little girl and it got Vin Diesel killed. Upham hesitated to destroy what he hated and it got Mellish killed. And Hanks letting Steamboat Willie go undoubtedly got more people killed.

Moral, never turn down an opportunity to destroy what you hate if you want to win.
 
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LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
Exactly. The lame “Love Conquers All” troupe has no place in a sci-fi movie. 2001 didn’t have it. The rest of the Star Wars movies didn’t have it, in fact they made three movies about how one Jedi’s dick fever destroyed the entire order (ok maybe ROTJ sort of had it, but it wasn’t nearly as ham fisted at TLJ). Interstellar was an awesome, hard Sci-Fi movie until they introduced that shit there too.
I disagree with that. Ignoring the "hard sci-fi" fallacy, love is an important concept in a lot of great sci-fi movies. Arrival, Brazil, Close Encounters, ET, Eternal Sunshine, Inception, Star Trek 1 and 2, Johnson's previous film Looper, Terminator, even Blade Runner/2049. Hell, the climax of the original Star Wars trilogy - how didn't I make this connection before - Darth Vader sacrifices himself to save his son and therefore the God damn galaxy. So to say it's incompatible with science fiction is wrong.

The problem is that, like so much of TLJ, it's mishandled and doesn't fit. It doesn't connect with what came before (actually completely contradicts what came before) and the messenger makes it worse. If it had the emotional relevance as in those other movies, it would be fine. Instead, it comes out of nowhere so it becomes "shut up Meg."

I am RELing about the Darth Vader thing.
 

HandPanzer

Shantih Shantih Shantih
I disagree with that. Ignoring the "hard sci-fi" fallacy, love is an important concept in a lot of great sci-fi movies. Arrival, Brazil, Close Encounters, ET, Eternal Sunshine, Inception, Star Trek 1 and 2, Johnson's previous film Looper, Terminator, even Blade Runner/2049. Hell, the climax of the original Star Wars trilogy - how didn't I make this connection before - Darth Vader sacrifices himself to save his son and therefore the God damn galaxy. So to say it's incompatible with science fiction is wrong.

The problem is that, like so much of TLJ, it's mishandled and doesn't fit. It doesn't connect with what came before (actually completely contradicts what came before) and the messenger makes it worse. If it had the emotional relevance as in those other movies, it would be fine. Instead, it comes out of nowhere so it becomes "shut up Meg."

I am RELing about the Darth Vader thing.
The Steinberg version of Brazil is literally called the "Love Conquers All" cut.
 

LiddyRules

I'm Gonna Be The Bestest Pilot in the Galaxy
The Steinberg version of Brazil is literally called the "Love Conquers All" cut.
I never realized how prevalent love is in science fiction until Floyd said it's not in science fiction.

And that's not even talking about how Star Wars is more sci-fantasy than sci-fi and love is even more important in fantasy.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
I disagree with that. Ignoring the "hard sci-fi" fallacy, love is an important concept in a lot of great sci-fi movies. Arrival, Brazil, Close Encounters, ET, Eternal Sunshine, Inception, Star Trek 1 and 2, Johnson's previous film Looper, Terminator, even Blade Runner/2049. Hell, the climax of the original Star Wars trilogy - how didn't I make this connection before - Darth Vader sacrifices himself to save his son and therefore the God damn galaxy. So to say it's incompatible with science fiction is wrong.

The problem is that, like so much of TLJ, it's mishandled and doesn't fit. It doesn't connect with what came before (actually completely contradicts what came before) and the messenger makes it worse. If it had the emotional relevance as in those other movies, it would be fine. Instead, it comes out of nowhere so it becomes "shut up Meg."

I am RELing about the Darth Vader thing.
Alright, I’ll rephraise. Maybe it’s more the “following your heart over logic is always the better choice” troupe. To cite some of your examples:

Arrival: Renner and Adams know that their daughter is going to die and their relationship is ultimately going to fail. Their decision to go with anyway is going to result in a ton of misery.

Brazil: Admittedly I’ve yet to see this (I own the Criterion Blu Ray but still haven’t gotten around to watching it). But I do know that the bastardized Universal Cut that Gilliam hates is commonly known as the “Love Conquers All” cut. *Edit: 23! @HandPanzer

CE3K: Dreyfuss does “follow his heart” and is ultimately rewarded (although it’s arguable whether or not he’s acting completly within his free will) but it leaves a shattered family behind (I’m sure you know that Spielberg has admitted he could never have made the same movie today)

E.T. A movie about a boy trying to get his alien friend back home. Yes they bond and Elliot is sad to see ET leave, but I don’t think this one falls squarely into that “love conqueres all” mould.

Eternal Sunshine: Sci-Fi elements, yes, but it still was designed more as a love story so I’m not counting that so much.

Star Trek: Kid toucher and bald chick sacrifice themselves to stop V’ger but it’s not like Love was a huge theme in that along the lines of “Interstellar”. Not too sure how Wrath of Khan fits though.

Terminator: Yes, but again not ham fisted, Reese being the father of John was an organic part of the story. No dialogue about “us fucking is going to win the war”

Blade Runner: Deckard and Rachel’s romance didn’t complete Deckard’s mission or, with the exception of one scene, would have had any real bearing on resolving the story

ROTJ: Rebels still would have won if Vader hadn’t tossed Palps (I know the Thrawn Trilogy tried to explain that the rebels only won because Palps was destroyed, but we’re not going there)

In summary, sci fi movies can certainly have Love elements, but it’s lame when they try to portray love as “solving” the plot or insinuating that love will always win in the end.
 
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Floyd1977

Registered User
I never realized how prevalent love is in science fiction until Floyd said it's not in science fiction.

And that's not even talking about how Star Wars is more sci-fantasy than sci-fi and love is even more important in fantasy.
Not exactly what I said (I just posed a more detailed response).

Happy Birthday, dick!
 

BIV

I'm Biv Dick Black, the Over Poster.
Love can conquer whatever the Hell it wants as long as it isn't fucking stupid.


It wasn't the themes that were the biggest problem (though certainly a problem) it's the complete incompetency in which they were expressed.


Make your story about your tri-sexual alien destroying Jedi privilege while ranting about the evil of blasters and using love to destroy the corporate backers of the First Order. Just make it good. Make a well thought out script with clear goals that doesn't break the universe you are building off of. I'll hate all your themes, I may hate your movie, but I won't condemn it for being shit.


Okay, I'd probably still condemn it for being shit, but not incompetent.
 
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