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LiddyRules

The 9/11 Moon Landings Were An Outside Job
As I've said for a while now, I could buy the company line that Rian Johnson made all these decisions himself, subverting expectations and smashing all the mystery boxes that JJ put together in The Force Awakens...until JJ Abrams agreed to come back and direct Episode 9.

Forget anything that actually happened in the movies themselves. Say you're working for a company overseeing several projects and then you leave the company before they are finished. The next guy comes in and says everything you did was shit, and your old boss agrees with you. They take everything you were working on and change it or just throw it out altogether, all while saying what a great job the new guy did destroying everything you had worked on. Then they call you and want to hire you back to finish all the projects. Do you take that job? Nobody takes that job.
Eh...there are various factors to consider.

Public statements v. public statements. The company actually believing it was good but course correcting after seeing the negative response. Dump trunks of money.

I don't see him coming back as definitive of anything. It's not like Abrams has a reputation as a filmmaker with integrity. (Not that he has a reputation of not having integrity either, but I don't think he's that protective.)
 

LiddyRules

The 9/11 Moon Landings Were An Outside Job
Not entirely sure if youre agreeing or disagreeing, Disney had set out what they had wanted from each character already and were employing people to make it happen, JJ was still involved throughout TLJ was he not. consulting or someshit?
Who knows? His connection to TLJ is one of those amorphous Hollywood positions. They could say he was involved in the idea process but had zero to do with it or they could say he had zero to do with it but was involved in the idea process and anywhere in between. All are equally valid.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
Not entirely sure if youre agreeing or disagreeing, Disney had set out what they had wanted from each character already and were employing people to make it happen, JJ was still involved throughout TLJ was he not. consulting or someshit?
Yes, that's the point I'm making. There are some people that believe Rian Johnson went rogue.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
Eh...there are various factors to consider.

Public statements v. public statements. The company actually believing it was good but course correcting after seeing the negative response. Dump trunks of money.

I don't see him coming back as definitive of anything. It's not like Abrams has a reputation as a filmmaker with integrity. (Not that he has a reputation of not having integrity either, but I don't think he's that protective.)
My point is more that he has lots and lots of other things he could do with his time than take this job under these circumstances. Keep in mind he's still under contract with Paramount and they had to jump through some hoops so he could do this. So just looking at Paramount's properties, he had other, maybe even better options: Mission Impossible 7, a Transformers movie, the next Star Trek movie, Top Gun 2...Ok, so maybe none of those are that great, but Star Wars isn't in the best shape either right now.
 

Frankie_b

Talk softly and drive a big tank!
Yes, that's the point I'm making. There are some people that believe Rian Johnson went rogue.
and these people seemed to miss people being fired for making suggestions and R1 being totally reshot because it wasnt what disney wanted?

deez niggas
 
Snoke was taken out too easy, would they really go to all the bother and just cast him aside, he's either a projection/illusion or a pawn used by the real 'master' to protect and hide himself
They did the hologram of Snoke in the first movie. Why would they do it again? If the intent was to keep Snoke around, they sure went to great lengths to make sure he appeared dead.
 

Frankie_b

Talk softly and drive a big tank!
They did the hologram of Snoke in the first movie. Why would they do it again? If the intent was to keep Snoke around, they sure went to great lengths to make sure he appeared dead.
After building him up to be someone who could challenge Luke its doubtful he's going to be dead, what we seen as snoke may be dead but not the real person/creature. The hologram was clearly a holo, this time round it would be as luke done and used the force to project himself or its simply a stand in or clone or some shit.
 

LiddyRules

The 9/11 Moon Landings Were An Outside Job
Yes, that's the point I'm making. There are some people that believe Rian Johnson went rogue.
I don't think he went rogue. I think Kennedy is way too controlling to allow anyone to go rogue, unless she thought losing the directors of all her films would have looked bad. But she didn't know what was going to happen with Solo and Episode 9 when this happened, so...

After building him up to be someone who could challenge Luke its doubtful he's going to be dead, what we seen as snoke may be dead but not the real person/creature. The hologram was clearly a holo, this time round it would be as luke done and used the force to project himself or its simply a stand in or clone or some shit.
I disagree with this. The more I consider it, the more I think Snoke was always meant to be a red herring. Ren is obviously the more interesting and compelling character and they built Snoke up too much as too powerful for him to be anything but a distraction. It's very Abrams-y to me.
 

Floyd1977

Registered User
Forget anything that actually happened in the movies themselves. Say you're working for a company overseeing several projects and then you leave the company before they are finished. The next guy comes in and says everything you did was shit, and your old boss agrees with you. They take everything you were working on and change it or just throw it out altogether, all while saying what a great job the new guy did destroying everything you had worked on. Then they call you and want to hire you back to finish all the projects. Do you take that job? Nobody takes that job.
That analogy makes it sound as if Johnson completely raaped what JJ had done and I don't think that's really true. You can certainly fault Johnson for certain things but I don't think that's one of them. As far as I can recall, Johnson really only put the kibosh on one of JJ's "mystery boxes" and that was Rey's parents (something theoretically JJ can undo in IX if he wants). And even that lends itself to some doubt. It is true that in TFA there is mention of a family Rey once had that apparently left her on Jakku. But there was never any promise that it would be "satisfactorily" paid off. Most of us got it into our heads for some reason that Rey must be the offspring of a core OT character when that was never really even hinted at anywhere. Other than that, what did Johnson ruin that was JJs? Luke? We only saw him for like 30 seconds at the end of TFA and it was a wordless appearance. We don't know what ideas JJ had of his own for Luke (though it was pretty clear Luke didn't exile himself merely for some R&R). Snoke? Again, we don't know what ideas JJ had of his own for Snoke. Johnson didn't expand on the Knights of Ren? Maybe we see them in IX. There's still one more movie that can address stuff that Johnson didn't deal with.

Maybe TLJ sort of ends up being like The Dark Knight. If you think about it, there really wasn't much in TDK that had much of an impact to the overall story as a whole. TDKR serves as a more direct sequel to Begins. You could watch Begins and skip right to TDKR without missing all that much.
 

LiddyRules

The 9/11 Moon Landings Were An Outside Job
That analogy makes it sound as if Johnson completely raaped what JJ had done and I don't think that's really true. You can certainly fault Johnson for certain things but I don't think that's one of them. As far as I can recall, Johnson really only put the kibosh on one of JJ's "mystery boxes" and that was Rey's parents (something theoretically JJ can undo in IX if he wants). And even that lends itself to some doubt. It is true that in TFA there is mention of a family Rey once had that apparently left her on Jakku. But there was never any promise that it would be "satisfactorily" paid off. Most of us got it into our heads for some reason that Rey must be the offspring of a core OT character when that was never really even hinted at anywhere. Other than that, what did Johnson ruin that was JJs? Luke? We only saw him for like 30 seconds at the end of TFA and it was a wordless appearance. We don't know what ideas JJ had of his own for Luke (though it was pretty clear Luke didn't exile himself merely for some R&R). Snoke? Again, we don't know what ideas JJ had of his own for Snoke. Johnson didn't expand on the Knights of Ren? Maybe we see them in IX. There's still one more movie that can address stuff that Johnson didn't deal with.

Maybe TLJ sort of ends up being like The Dark Knight. If you think about it, there really wasn't much in TDK that had much of an impact to the overall story as a whole. TDKR serves as a more direct sequel to Begins. You could watch Begins and skip right to TDKR without missing all that much.
I don't know if Abrams had a lot of ownership over what he did with TFA. Not that he didn't "care," but I think if he really had a story to tell, he would have either gotten a writing/story credit for TLJ or did the whole trilogy on his own. He could have probably forced Disney's hand on having that control if he wanted it from the start. What he did with TFA was set everyone like ANH. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the world building aspects of TFA were the weakest parts of it because I think that's what he was least interested in.

Maybe he didn't even see the trilogy as a whole story. I mean, why would he? This isn't 1983; they're not going to just stop with Rey/Poe/Finn/Ren. Hell, there's already a cartoon with Poe/Phasma with Isaac/Christie doing the voices coming out. The characters won't go softly into that good night. At least a couple of them will return because it would be stupid to let them rest. Through the side projects, books, video games, comics, TV series, etc. why even worry about closing things out? You can take care of it in Snoke: Origins graphic novel. Or the Benicio Del Toro's Character novel franchise.

The only things Johnson might have hurt for him are: Snoke, but I actually do think that was the extend of Snoke's usefulness. What else could they do with him? Either make the franchise more about Snoke v. Luke for the soul of Kylo Ren, which doesn't really fit what we got since it would elevate the importance of two tertiary characters from TFA at the expense of the younger cast or have a Luke/Snoke battle, which probably wouldn't be that far from Dooku v. Yoda in AOTC. And killing Luke. That might be the biggest thing, but because there's Force Ghost Luke it's like he's not dead after all. I could be wrong, but I think Abrams was announced as the director of Episode 9 before TLJ came out. If Abrams wanted to, he could have easily cut the unnecessary death out. It would have changed nothing.
 
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Floyd1977

Registered User
I don't know if Abrams had a lot of ownership over what he did with TFA. Not that he didn't "care," but I think if he really had a story to tell, he would have either gotten a writing/story credit for TLJ or did the whole trilogy on his own. He could have probably forced Disney's hand on having that control if he wanted it from the start. What he did with TFA was set everyone like ANH. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the world building aspects of TFA were the weakest parts of it because I think that's what he was least interested in.
JJ was very established and very successful so I have to assume he was given a large amount of autonomy. He’s also a geek so he’s not going to go far off the reservation either, and Kennedy knew it. This made him a perfect choice for kicking off a new SW trilogy.

Maybe he didn't even see the trilogy as a whole story. I mean, why would he? This isn't 1983; they're not going to just stop with Rey/Poe/Finn/Ren. Hell, there's already a cartoon with Poe/Phasma with Isaac/Christie doing the voices coming out. The characters won't go softly into that good night. At least a couple of them will return because it would be stupid to let them rest. Through the side projects, books, video games, comics, TV series, etc. why even worry about closing things out? You can take care of it in Snoke: Origins graphic novel. Or the Benicio Del Toro's Character novel franchise.
That is a major flaw of how things are done today. The movies should stand on their own. I don’t know the side shit. I don’t mind that they exist as long as they don’t contain shit that is integral to understanding what happens within the movies. There’s going to be a book that will explain Snoke’s backstory. Fair enough. But if that backstory explains why he didn’t see Kylo’s betrayal, then that breaks the rules.


The only things Johnson might have hurt for him are: Snoke, but I actually do think that was the extend of Snoke's usefulness. What else could they do with him? Either make the franchise more about Snoke v. Luke for the soul of Kylo Ren, which doesn't really fit what we got since it would elevate the importance of two tertiary characters from TFA at the expense of the younger cast or have a Luke/Snoke battle, which probably wouldn't be that far from Dooku v. Yoda in AOTC. And killing Luke. That might be the biggest thing, but because there's Force Ghost Luke it's like he's not dead after all. I could be wrong, but I think Abrams was announced as the director of Episode 9 before TLJ came out. If Abrams wanted to, he could have easily cut the unnecessary death out. It would have changed nothing.
I think Snoke was just a plot device. Kylo killing him to save Rey shows that there’s a chance he can be redeemed, but it raises an interesting convention twist. As far as I know, we haven’t seen what happens in a SW movie when an apprentice kills a supreme leader relatively early in the story. Snoke getting taken out early could actually be somewhat brilliant. What happens in a power vacuum? Was it you Liddy who thought one of he better touches of TLJ was when Hux comes imto Snoke’s throne room and finds Kylo passed out and he tentatively reaches for his blaster.
 

LiddyRules

The 9/11 Moon Landings Were An Outside Job
JJ was very established and very successful so I have to assume he was given a large amount of autonomy. He’s also a geek so he’s not going to go far off the reservation either, and Kennedy knew it. This made him a perfect choice for kicking off a new SW trilogy.



That is a major flaw of how things are done today. The movies should stand on their own. I don’t know the side shit. I don’t mind that they exist as long as they don’t contain shit that is integral to understanding what happens within the movies. There’s going to be a book that will explain Snoke’s backstory. Fair enough. But if that backstory explains why he didn’t see Kylo’s betrayal, then that breaks the rules.




I think Snoke was just a plot device. Kylo killing him to save Rey shows that there’s a chance he can be redeemed, but it raises an interesting convention twist. As far as I know, we haven’t seen what happens in a SW movie when an apprentice kills a supreme leader relatively early in the story. Snoke getting taken out early could actually be somewhat brilliant. What happens in a power vacuum? Was it you Liddy who thought one of he better touches of TLJ was when Hux comes imto Snoke’s throne room and finds Kylo passed out and he tentatively reaches for his blaster.
I noticed the Hux thing the second time I watched it, and it was a genuine highlight for me. Seeing something like that after the movie-long incompetence of the First Order stood out. The power vacuum really interested me, it's why Kylo just becoming Supreme Leader felt like a wasted opportunity. I really hope they do more with that in Episode 9 because it's the most interesting thing the series has going for it now.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
Kathleen Kennedy has inked a 3 year contract extension through 2021.

Fuck.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
Yeah, I was going to say....

Disney is really happy with the direction of the Star Wars universe.
I think if the Fox deal hadn’t happened, Feige would have moved over to Lucasfilm. The opportunity to redo the X-Men must have been too tempting for him.
 

LiddyRules

The 9/11 Moon Landings Were An Outside Job
I think if the Fox deal hadn’t happened, Feige would have moved over to Lucasfilm. The opportunity to redo the X-Men must have been too tempting for him.
I don't get why you're so convinced Feige wants/ed Star Wars.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
I don't get why you're so convinced Feige wants/ed Star Wars.
Maybe it was the 10 movie tribute to Empire Strikes Back. But more just common sense: If they don’t make the Fox deal, what’s left for him to do at Marvel after Infinity War 2?
 
I think if the Fox deal hadn’t happened, Feige would have moved over to Lucasfilm. The opportunity to redo the X-Men must have been too tempting for him.
I don't get why you're so convinced Feige wants/ed Star Wars.
I think it depends on which franchise he thought (and to a lesser extent what you think) has the brighter future: X-Men or Star Wars.
 
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LiddyRules

The 9/11 Moon Landings Were An Outside Job
Maybe it was the 10 movie tribute to Empire Strikes Back. But more just common sense: If they don’t make the Fox deal, what’s left for him to do at Marvel after Infinity War 2?
I don't know. Maybe it's my cynicism, but Star Wars seems soiled. Unless your argument is he wants the challenge.

Furthermore, I read that Kingsman 3 is now a WW1 prequel. Which I'm cool with.
 

Pigdango

Silence, you mortal Fuck!
Donator
I don't know. Maybe it's my cynicism, but Star Wars seems soiled. Unless your argument is he wants the challenge.

Furthermore, I read that Kingsman 3 is now a WW1 prequel. Which I'm cool with.
You’re cool with a prequel?
 
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